Iran: novi front

[laser lotus]

Kao što je već rečeno izgleda da prepoznavanje civilnih aviona u ratnim uslovima nije samo Iranski problem.

 

13 minutes ago, 3opge said:

da ne govorimo o radarskom odrazu i zvuku, radi se o jedno 3 km rastojanja od rakete do aviona

 

Da, sve PVO svijeta prvo načulje uši kad im počne smjena.

[3opge]

Just now, laser lotus said:

Kao što je već rečeno izgleda da prepoznavanje civilnih aviona u ratnim uslovima nije samo Iranski problem.

 

Da, sve PVO svijeta prvo načulje uši kad im počne smjena.

aha, i jedu sargarepu da bi bolje videli u mraku.

 

[mustang]

Postoji jos jedna mogucnost...da su namerno oborili avion kako bi pokazali svetu da mogu cak i na ustrb svojih sunarodnika, da ih briga za kolateralnu stetu. 
 

i to mi je palo na pamet....

[ObiW]

Pa u šta gledaju, jebem ih ćorave? Ovo im je bilo bukvalno pred nosem. 

[Tutankamon]

@Weenie Pooh

3 hours ago, Weenie Pooh said:

 

Ne, naučio sam da postoje ljudi koji veruju najsenzacionalnijim naslovima koje uspeju da iskopaju. Reuters u članku koji ste okačili (ti ili Jozef K, mrzi me sad da proveravam) navodi kao izvor "tri aninimna zvaničnika", što je kao onaj vic o 3,500 debelih Nemaca.

 

UN su u decembru rekle "desetine mrtvih", Amnesty u januaru izborjao 304, State Department zaokružio na hiljadu, Reuters na tri i po hiljade, a Jozef na desetine hiljada. 

 

 

Ajd ovako,

1. Rekao si da je Rojters objavio da je bilo 3500 mrtvih, dokaz nisi pružio

2. Ustvrdio si kako je UN u decembru rekla "desetine mrtvih" a kao dokaz pružio link ka vestio BBC-a od 19. novembra kada su demonstracije bile malte-ne u toku, gde se pominje strah OHCHR-a da ima na desetine mrtvih, u istom tekstu se pominje i ovo 

Quote

Amnesty International said it had received credible reports that at least 106 protesters in 21 cities had died.

https://web.archive.org/web/20191119204532/https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-50474405

a ja sam ti izveštaj OHCHR-a iz decembra postavio gore, evo još jednom

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=25449&LangID=E

gde se pominje ovo

Quote

 

“We are shocked at reports of the ill-treatment of those detained during the protests that took place in November 2019, and deeply disturbed that the reported use of excessive force by the Iranian security forces led to an untold number of casualties, including deaths,” the experts said.

“Reports suggest that detainees are being tortured or are suffering other forms of ill-treatment, sometimes to extract forced confessions. Some are also reportedly being denied medical treatment, including for injuries caused by the security forces’ use of excessive force, and are being held in overcrowded detention centres. Some are being held incommunicado or subjected to enforced disappearances.”

Up to 200,000 people took part in protests after the Iranian Government announced a new fuel policy. Official sources state that at least 7,000 protesters were arrested, thousands of whom are still in detention.

The experts also fear that detainees will be denied the right to a fair trial because of Iran’s failure to adhere to due process standards, especially for those who have voiced opposition to the Government.

“Senior officials have said that protesters will face severe punishment,” the experts said. “We have already seen Iranian state television broadcast so-called ‘confessions’, despite claims that these are being obtained under duress. Many detainees are also reportedly being denied the right to a lawyer of their choosing.

“We urge the Government and the judiciary to ensure that all those accused of crimes go through court proceedings that adhere to international fair trial standards, including the presumption of innocence.”

According to credible sources, at least 304 people, including 12 children, are confirmed to have died, with unconfirmed reports indicating that the total could be more than 400. The number of deaths appears to be particularly high in some provinces with large ethnic minority populations, the experts added.

“Reports and footage indicate that Iranian security forces not only fired live ammunition at unarmed protesters, but also aimed at their heads and vital organs,” the experts said.

“Targeting these parts of the body shows that the security forces were aiming to kill or at least cause serious injury. The Governor of Quds City has herself admitted publicly that she ordered security forces to shoot protesters who entered the governor’s building.

“We are extremely disturbed that the Iranian authorities would use such tactics against peaceful protesters exercising their rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly, in breach of international standards on the use of force.”

 

Rekao si i ovo

Quote

 

Po običaju, nemaš pojma šta kačiš tj. odakle, i ne čitaš dalje od naslova.

 

Da si kliknuo na prvi eksterni link iz tog teksta, gde se kaže 

video bi da vodi do Amnesty International stranice na kojoj se jasno navodi "304 people killed". 

 

Kad ono gle, sam si postovao upravo taj njihov link čiju su procenu NCRI* opušteno upetostručili: 

Dakle, 300 ==> 1,500 ==> "desetine hiljada"

 

3. Ne piše ""304 people killed" nego at least 304 people were killed and thousands were injured between 15 and 18 November as authorities crushed protests using lethal force, according to credible reports compiled by the organization. Znači nije njihova procena 304 mrtva nego je to najmanje 304 mrtvih, za toliko imaju kredibilne dokaze. U izveštaju gore koji sam ti postavio OHCHR-a piše ista brojka ali i

Quote

According to credible sources, at least 304 people, including 12 children, are confirmed to have died, with unconfirmed reports indicating that the total could be more than 400

Inače, normalno je da neko daje eksterni link ka Amnestiju, oni tvrde da imaju izveštaje o 1500 mrtvih ali prenose i Amnesti.

4. Znači ustanovili smo da nije 304 nego najmanje 304, da su ovi iz NCRI izvestili o 1500 (gde nestadoše onih 3500 od Rojtersa)...a desetine hiljada se odnosilo na brojne demonstracije u poslednjih 10-ak godina...ako su ubili 400 ljudi u svega nekoliko dana novembra a bilo je puno demonstracija u Iranu ti vidi...cifru nikada nećemo utvrditi.

 

[laser lotus]

22 minutes ago, ObiW said:

Pa u šta gledaju, jebem ih ćorave? Ovo im je bilo bukvalno pred nosem. 

U blips and blops što bi rekao ujka Albert.

 

Sad čitam, nije im ovo prva nesreća vezana za Tor - 2010. su oborili sopstveni F-4.

[Tsai]

Ne verujem iskreno da su namerno oborili avion, to bi bilo zaista previse i preglupo. 

 

On topic, drzava u kojoj je najmocniji covek Amfilohije na 15. stepen po mom skromnom misljenju ne moze da se (moralno) brani nikakvom akrobatikom. 

[ObiW]

Ukrainian officials criticized Iran’s conduct, suggesting that the Iranians would not have admitted responsibility if investigators from Ukraine had not found evidence of a missile strike in the wreckage of the crash, which killed all 176 people aboard.

 

The Ukrainians further accused Iran of having recklessly permitted commercial flights during a security emergency and of having violated universally accepted procedures for a post-crash investigation. Bulldozers had heaped debris from the plane into piles on the ground.

 

“Everything was done absolutely inappropriately,” Oleksiy Danilov, the Ukrainian security official overseeing the crash inquiry, said in an interview with The New York Times, referring to how Iranian authorities had handled the site of the crash.

 

 

Kao što sam i mislilo... krenuli da muljaju pa ih uhvatili.

 

[harper]

15 hours ago, Tutankamon said:

Nisam rekao da je krv hiljada amerikanaca na Solejmanijevim rukama ali je i on odgovoran za deo tih mrtvih. Ulaskom Amera u Irak, što je priznaćemo najveća strateška greška, možda gora i od Vijetmnama, i sa svim glupostima i zločinima okupatora, Iran i Sirija su se našli pametnim da gomile naoružanja ide šiitskim a pre svega sunitskim pobunjenicima tj. milicijama. Sirija i Irak dele granicu koju naseljava jedno te isto pleme (i koja je veštačka, crtali je Englezi). Uglavnom, ovim indijancima je bilo bitnije da dignu u vazduh gomile civila, koji čak i ne sarađuju sa režimom, jer su do Amera teže mogli da dođu. Čak mislim da je Buš u jednom trenutku ozbiljno razmatrao vojni intervenciju na Siriju zbog ovoga. Kako se klatno okreće, dosta je njih posle prešlo u ISIS. Video sam svojevremeno nekakvu mapu Bagdada sa tačkama na kojima su eksplodirale bombe, i bukvalno da nije bilo ulice u kojoj nije postavljena nekakva naprava, ono da eksplodira u sred belog dana, kad je frekfencija civila najveća, čisto da nanese štetu nekom američkom konvoju bez obzira na civile, nekom službeniku režima ili pak civilima pogrešnog religijskog usmerenja...

 

Cudan nacin da se napise - nezapamcen zlocin pocinjen na osnovu blatantne lazi.

[harper]

13 hours ago, Tutankamon said:

Druže, oćemo da se ograničimo na to da svi mi ovde pišemo o nečemu što smo lično videli i gde smo lično bili...nije sporno, samo onda ne bi ovde pisali ni ti ni ja, barem ne mnogo...meni nije problem, ali onda zajedno ne pišemo. Ok?

 

Ne bismo. Ti izgleda ni pravopis srpskog jezika nisi licno video.

[Tutankamon]

Ok

[vememah]

Quote

 

WORLD
Swiss Back Channel Helped Defuse U.S.-Iran Crisis
The U.S. sent an encrypted fax via the Swiss Embassy in Tehran urging Iran not to escalate, followed by a flurry of back and forth messages

 

By Drew Hinshaw, Joe Parkinson and Benoit Faucon
Updated Jan. 11, 2020 5:04 am ET

BERN, Switzerland—Hours after a U.S. strike killed Iranian Maj. Gen. Qassem Soleimani, the Trump administration sent an urgent back channel message to Tehran: Don’t escalate.

 

The encrypted fax was sent via the Swiss Embassy in Iran, one of the few means of direct, confidential communication between the two sides, U.S. officials said.

 

In the days that followed, the White House and Iranian leaders exchanged further messages, which officials in both countries described as far more measured than the fiery rhetoric traded publicly by politicians.

 

A week later, and after a retaliatory Iranian missile attack on two military bases hosting American troops that inflicted no casualties, Washington and Tehran seemed to be stepping back from the brink of open hostilities—for now.

 

“We don’t communicate with the Iranians that much, but when we do the Swiss have played a critical role to convey messages and avoid miscalculation,” a senior U.S. official said.

 

A spokesman at Iran’s mission to the United Nations declined to comment on the exchanges but said “we appreciate [the Swiss] for any efforts they make to provide an efficient channel to exchange letters when and if necessary.”

 

One Iranian official said the back channel provided a welcome bridge, when all others had been burned: “In the desert, even a drop of water matters.”

 

From the Swiss Embassy, a Shah-era mansion overlooking Tehran, the country’s role as a diplomatic intermediary has stretched through four turbulent decades and seven presidencies, from the hostage crisis under Jimmy Carter to Barack Obama’s nuclear deal. It has seldom been tested like this.

 

The Americans’ first note was sent immediately after Washington confirmed the death of Gen. Soleimani, the most important figure in Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, the U.S. officials said.

 

It arrived on a special encrypted fax machine in a sealed room of the Swiss mission—the most enduring method since the 1979 Islamic Revolution—for the White House to exchange messages with Iran’s top leadership.

 

The equipment operates on a secure Swiss government network linking its Tehran embassy to the Foreign Ministry in Bern and its embassy in Washington, say Swiss diplomats. Only the most senior officials have the key cards needed to use the equipment.

 

Swiss Ambassador Markus Leitner, a 53-year-old career diplomat, delivered the American message by hand to Iranian Foreign Minister Javad Zarif early on Friday morning, according to U.S. and Swiss officials.

 

Mr. Leitner, reached by email, declined to comment. The Swiss Foreign Ministry confirmed there had been an exchange of messages, but declined to comment further.

 

Mr. Zarif responded to the U.S. missive with anger, according to an official familiar with the exchange. “[U.S. Secretary of State Mike] Pompeo is a bully,” he said, according to one U.S. official briefed on Mr. Zarif’s response. “The U.S. is the cause of all the problems.”

 

The Swiss ambassador regularly visits Washington for closed-door sessions with Pentagon, State Department and intelligence officials eager to tap his knowledge about Iran’s opaque and fluid politics.

 

Mr. Leitner spent the days after Gen. Soleimani’s killing shuttling back and forth in a low-key but high-wire diplomatic mission designed to let each side speak candidly. It was a contrast to the jabs of President Trump and Mr. Zarif on Twitter.

 

On Jan. 4, the day after the killing, Mr. Trump tweeted that he had picked out 52 targets, including Iranian heritage sites for potential retaliation if America suffered losses. “Those targets, and Iran itself, WILL BE HIT VERY FAST AND VERY HARD,” the tweet said.

 

Mr. Zarif replied the next day: “A reminder to those hallucinating about emulating ISIS war crimes by targeting our cultural heritage,” he wrote. “Through MILLENNIA of history, barbarians have come and ravaged our cities, razed our monuments and burnt our libraries. Where are they now? We’re still here, & standing tall.”

 

That same day, Mr. Zarif called the Swiss ambassador to take a message to the U.S. It was more restrained, according to the U.S. officials. Statements from both sides helped prevent miscalculations, the officials said.

“When tensions with Iran were high, the Swiss played a useful and reliable role that both sides appreciated,” said a senior Trump administration official. “Their system is like a light that never turns off.”

 

The Swiss have served as messengers between Washington and Tehran since 1980, in the wake of the seizure of the American Embassy—and 52 hostages —in Tehran by Iranian revolutionaries. Swiss diplomats call the role the “brieftrager” or “the postman.”

 

In the years after the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003, the Swiss shepherded messages to help avoid direct clashes. When President Obama assumed office, Switzerland hosted the talks that led to a nuclear deal. When Washington lifted sanctions, Swiss businesses had an early jump on rivals.

 

When Mr. Trump reimposed sanctions, he gave the Swiss a phone number to pass the Iranians, saying: “I’d like to see them call me.”

 

So far, Tehran has continued to speak through the Swiss.

 

Former Swiss ambassadors say the diplomatic channel is effective because the U.S. and Iran can trust a message will remain confidential, be delivered quickly, and will reach only its intended recipients. Statements passed on the back channel are always precisely phrased, diplomatic, and free of emotion, they said.

 

Landlocked Switzerland, a country of nine million with no standing army, parlays its role as “postman” to lever access to the great powers.

 

Currently, Swiss diplomats are working to get Washington’s green light for Swiss banks to finance exports to Iran that aren’t subject to sanctions—like food and medicine.

 

“We do things for the world community, and it’s good,” said a former ambassador. “But it is also good for our interests.”

 

Iran isn’t the only geopolitical hot spot where the Swiss Embassy represents U.S. or other countries’ interests after the breakdown of diplomatic relations.

 

The Swiss now holds six mandates including representing Iran in Saudi Arabia, Georgia in Russia and Turkey in Libya. In April 2019, the Trump administration asked Bern to represent it in Venezuela but President Nicolás Maduro’s government has yet to approve.

 

As tensions between Washington and Tehran have escalated, the channel has remained active. In December the two countries released prisoners at the same time at a special hangar in the Zurich airport.

 

U.S. special envoy on Iran Brian Hook and Iran’s Mr. Zarif sat in separate rooms as the Swiss directed the carefully choreographed exchange.

 

“The Swiss channel has become enormously important because of what they can do in the short term to lessen tensions,” said former New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson, who worked with the Swiss on the prisoner exchange. “It’s the only viable channel right now.”

 

—Dion Nissenbaum contributed to this article.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/swiss-back-channel-helped-defuse-u-s-iran-crisis-11578702290

[Redoran]

8 hours ago, Tsai said:

Ne verujem iskreno da su namerno oborili avion, to bi bilo zaista previse i preglupo. 

 

On topic, drzava u kojoj je najmocniji covek Amfilohije na 15. stepen po mom skromnom misljenju ne moze da se (moralno) brani nikakvom akrobatikom. 

 

Svaka, ali apsolutno svaka država na ovom svetu, uključujući Iran i Severnu Koreju, može i mora da se brani od američke regime change doktrine. Ne zbog nekog morala već zbog toga što američka regime change doktrina provereno i dokazano diže već dovoljno loše stvari na 15. stepen užasa. Što nije čudno ako imamo u vidu da je upravo u tu svrhu i osmišljena.

 

Niko nema ni moralno ni bilo kakvo drugo pravo da raskanta zemlju od 80 miliona ljudi i uništi živote ogromnoj većini njenih stanovnika jer Amfilohije. Otpor takvom načinu razmišljanja je civilizacijska obaveza svakog normalnog čoveka.

[vememah]

 

[Weenie Pooh]

9 hours ago, Tutankamon said:

@Weenie Pooh

Rekao si da je Rojters objavio da je bilo 3500 mrtvih, dokaz nisi pružio

Ne piše ""304 people killed" nego at least 304 people were killed and thousands were injured between 15 and 18 November as authorities crushed protests using lethal force, according to credible reports compiled by the organization. Znači nije njihova procena 304 mrtva nego je to najmanje 304 mrtvih

 

Inače, normalno je da neko daje eksterni link ka Amnestiju, oni tvrde da imaju izveštaje o 1500 mrtvih ali prenose i Amnesti.

 

a desetine hiljada se odnosilo na brojne demonstracije u poslednjih 10-ak godina...ako su ubili 400 ljudi u svega nekoliko dana novembra a bilo je puno demonstracija u Iranu ti vidi...cifru nikada nećemo utvrditi.

 

Care, ti si sam kačio linkove do Rojtersa, ne ja, u kojima se pozivaju na neimenovane iranske zvaničnike po kojima je ubijeno 3,500 ljudi. Sad pitaš mene "gde su dokazi" zato što tekstove ne pročitaš pre nego što ih podeliš.

 

Sam si kačio i NCRI link na kom kažu da je žrtava preko 1,500 i to argumentuju Amnesty tekstom u kom stoji 304. Sad kmečiš "najmanje 304" i lupaš kako je sasvim normalna praksa da mediji jednu brojku argumentuju drugom, pet puta manjom. To zato što čak i kad tekst slučajno pročitaš, ipak ne razmisliš o njemu pre nego što ga podeliš.

 

Glupost o desetinama hiljada mrtvih sad razvlačiš na deceniju, ekstrapoliraš 300-400 žrtava u novembru 2019 na "poslednjih desetak godina" i mudro zaključuješ da tačnu cifru nikada nećemo znati. Pa ako ceniš da je nikada nećemo znati, šta te vuče da je izmišljaš?! Šta te motiviše da se zalećeš na svaku debilnu procenu na koju naiđeš, i posle ovde peniš o zverskim ubistvima uhapšenika koje si sam evidentirao u snoviđenju kako bi se brojevi slagali?

 

Vidi, ja potpuno razumem da je Twitter otrov za mozak kom je nemoguće odoleti, i sam tamo gutam svakakve budalaštine. Ali forum je za nijansu drugačija vrsta medija, gde od sagovornika očekuješ da su informacije na koje su naišli bar malo isfiltrirali u glavi pre nego što su ih ispljunuli na stranicu. Očekuješ da su, kad postuju neku glupost, iza nje spremni da koliko-toliko stanu umesto da samo kažu "nisam ja to rekao, tako je pisalo na internetu" (ili "čuo sam od čoveka na radiju koji se time bavi").

 

Zato te još jednom najljubaznije molim: prikoči malo sa kreativnom žrtvometrijom i vatrenim osudama zverstava(tm); imaj u vidu da je većina informacija na koje naiđeš online teško sranje, pa razmisli da li baš želiš da ih preneseš kao golu istinu; imaj u vidu i da pričamo o stvarnim ljudima koji tamo negde stvarno postoje, pa pokušaj da primeniš neki minimum uzdržanosti; ili to ili odjebi u troskocima, kako god ti volja.