Amerika, zemlja velika

[Weenie Pooh]

1 hour ago, Roger Sanchez said:

Samo da to ne bude "to umire Helada, a s Heladom svi mi", kao u Krležinom Areteju,

pa ne bih baš toliko vruće navijao

 

Drugačije ne može. Ne postoji scenario po kom bi pao noseći stub globalne civilizacije a struktura nekako ostala da stoji bez njega. (Jer, kao, neki se drugi stub na brzinu prilagodi pa preuzme teret.) Ako kolapsa zaista bude, to može biti samo sistemski kolaps - lančana reakcija iz koje se niko neće izvući bez teških posledica. 

 

 

52 minutes ago, dragance said:

Na šta misliš kad kažeš “padnu”? Da se raspadnu kao država?

 

41 minutes ago, braca said:

Nesto kao pad rimskog carstva svojevremeno... i oni su dugo bili naj naj u svemu i mislili da su vecni

 

Rimsko carstvo nije najbolji primer, po nekim definicijama ono je potrajalo još cca 1,000 godina posle pada grada Rima. 

 

Bolje uzmi Bronze Age Collapse oko 1,200 PNE, kad su se skoro sve ozbiljne, razvijene, dugovečne civilizacije oko Mediterana neobjašnjivo raspale za samo pedesetak godina - prekid istorije, gubitak pismenosti, napuštanje gradova, mračni interregnum posle kog je postepeno krenulo sve ispočetka u Anatoliji i na Peloponezu. 

 

O uzrocima može samo da se spekuliše, ali nijedan pojedinačan uzrok (ratovi, zemljotresi, suše, bolesti) ne može da objasni zašto su sva ta društva sledila jedno za drugim u kolaps, i to u kratkom vremenskom periodu. Načelno prihvaćena ali nedokaziva tvrdnja je da se u tom periodu po prvi put razvila globalna™ civilizacija (realno regionalna, ali za njih je to bio ceo svet) sa uzajamno zavisnim državama koje nisu ni znale da neće moći da prežive kolaps suseda tj. rivala. Pa tako suša u jednom regionu izazove masovnu migraciju u drugom, što izazove finansijsku krizu u trećem, i tako dalje ciklično.

 

Današnja globalna civilizacija je manje naivna, postoje mehanizmi koji bi trebalo da spreče takvu lančanu reakciju, ali oni nikad nisu bili stvarno testirani. Nedavna pandemija se ispostavila kao fijasko, migrantska kriza od pre par godina nije prošla mnogo bolje, finansijski kolaps iz 2008 se i dalje oseća... a klimatska tj. energetska kriza nam već dugo visi nad glavom. Učestali su ti globalni pain points, a što se brže nižu to je veća šansa da sistem postane preopterećen i da krene da se ciklično urušava. Ko će ga i kako stabilizovati, tek treba da se vidi.

 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Weenie Pooh

[palikaris]

mislim da se ništa apokalptično neće desiti ostatku sveta (u smislu ratova, haosa i ostalih stvari, biće ekonomskih potresa, mada i to kako kome), kao i sovjetski sojuz kad se raspao, a pre toga britanska imperija, koja je bila u svoje vreme kud i kamo veći globalni igrač i od SSSR i od USA. Nekako će se samo izduvati, nećemo ni primetiti kad se strmoglave u prosečnost (zapravo se možda to već i dešava samo nismo još svesni).

[Weenie Pooh]

To je užasno optimistično, ceniš da će onolika vojna sila tiho ispustiti dušu? Da niko neće uzalud pokušati da silom održi dominaciju, da oplete taktičkim ili strateškim nuklearnim projektilima tu i tamo?

 

Ako zbog klimatskih promena pola ekvatorijalnog pojasa postane nenastanjivo, pa krene milijardu ljudi da migrira, pa se usput zapati neka nova pandemija, pa na vlast dođu likovi koji će granice braniti ne bodljikavom žicom nego teškom artiljerijom, pa krenu talasi gladnog i zaraženog mesa da zapljuskuju zidine Fortress Europe, a unutar zidina krenu nemiri zbog finansijskog kolapsa i ograničenog uvoza, pa se potrošnja energenata ograniči kako bi vojska imala čime da se vozika... 

 

Poželeće ljudi da im sleti neki američki imperijalista i uspostavi red & mir.

 

 

[ragasto]

Blast from the past - policajac koji je u neredima na Capitol hilu ubio protestantkinju je dao intervju za NBC. Potekla je i neka suza, tako da je možda ipak trebalo da puca u vazduh.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/officer-who-shot-ashli-babbitt-during-capitol-riot-breaks-silence-n1277736

[Roger Sanchez]

Nijedan pakao nije dovoljno dubok da se u njega baci ova stranka i sve zlo što sa sobom nosi:

[palikaris]

On 26.8.2021. at 20:18, Weenie Pooh said:

To je užasno optimistično, ceniš da će onolika vojna sila tiho ispustiti dušu? Da niko neće uzalud pokušati da silom održi dominaciju, da oplete taktičkim ili strateškim nuklearnim projektilima tu i tamo?

 

Ako zbog klimatskih promena pola ekvatorijalnog pojasa postane nenastanjivo, pa krene milijardu ljudi da migrira, pa se usput zapati neka nova pandemija, pa na vlast dođu likovi koji će granice braniti ne bodljikavom žicom nego teškom artiljerijom, pa krenu talasi gladnog i zaraženog mesa da zapljuskuju zidine Fortress Europe, a unutar zidina krenu nemiri zbog finansijskog kolapsa i ograničenog uvoza, pa se potrošnja energenata ograniči kako bi vojska imala čime da se vozika... 

 

Poželeće ljudi da im sleti neki američki imperijalista i uspostavi red & mir.

 

 

 

Opet, imali smo nedavno slom SSSR-a, jednako velike vojne sile, i nije bilo nikakve apokalipse, ne vidim što bi sa ovima bilo drugačije. Pogotovo što ako carstvo bankrotira onda nema love za ratove. Potres, pre svega ekonomski i politicki, se desio u sssr satelitima.

 

Ovo što ti pričaš je moguć scenario u US satelitima, ali šta ostatak sveta zabole za to, Evropa je jedva 10% svetske populacije, ne vidim kako će neka azija afrika da oseti štetu od nekog haosa koji se desi u Evropi, i ne vidim šta je tu globalna apokalipsa. Kao što niko van istočne Evrope nije preterano osetio neke posledice od sloma i prevrata u istoj.

 

Da neki američki imperijalista sleti i uspostavlja mir, to niko nikad nije želeo nit će poželeti, može samo svima da lakne (do pojave sledećeg imperijaliste). žal za ovima sigurno niko nikad neće osetiti, kao što ni za britanskim ili sovjetkim intervencijama niko nikada nije zažalio.

 

 

[ObiW]

Niko nikad? Ni Kosovari?

[Weenie Pooh]

3 hours ago, palikaris said:

Opet, imali smo nedavno slom SSSR-a, jednako velike vojne sile, i nije bilo nikakve apokalipse, ne vidim što bi sa ovima bilo drugačije. Pogotovo što ako carstvo bankrotira onda nema love za ratove. Potres, pre svega ekonomski i politicki, se desio u sssr satelitima.

 

Ovo što ti pričaš je moguć scenario u US satelitima, ali šta ostatak sveta zabole za to, Evropa je jedva 10% svetske populacije, ne vidim kako će neka azija afrika da oseti štetu od nekog haosa koji se desi u Evropi, i ne vidim šta je tu globalna apokalipsa. Kao što niko van istočne Evrope nije preterano osetio neke posledice od sloma i prevrata u istoj.

 

Nema ovo mnogo sličnosti sa slomom SSSR-a, jedne prilično izolovane države (za standarde svetske sile) koja se raspadala polako ali sigurno jer decenijama nije uspevala da održi korak za superiornom konkurencijom. (Na stranu sad to što je potresa itekako bilo, glupo je uopšte podsećati na devedesete u ovim krajevima.)

 

Trideset godina kasnije, svet se neuporedivo više oslanja na neometano funkcionisanje američke imperije nego što se ikad oslanjao na Sovjete - i finansijski, i vojno, i na  prakitčno svakom drugom planu. Da, kineski uticaj raste, ali Kina i SAD su neraskidivo povezane na način koji se ne može porediti sa nekadašnjim odnosima SSSR i SAD. Ceo svet je mnogo dublje povezan, pre svega ekonomski, a glavni problemi sa kojima se suočava (rast potrošnje energije i klimatske promene) su danas daleko ozbiljniji nego što su bili krajem osamdesetih. 

 

Ljudi odavno teoretišu o stabilnosti kompleksnih sistema, nagađa se gde je tačka posle koje usložnjavanje počinje da nanosi više štete nego koristi, a neki smatraju da je ta tačka već daleko iza nas. Joe Tainter je relativno poznat istoričar i antropolog koji je na tu temu pisao, o tome kad počinju "diminishing returns in social complexity" - kad društvo spontano kreće da se raspada i usitnjava jer ljudi imaju utisak da im se tako više isplati, jer nisu ni svesni cene koju će platiti. (Raspad Jugoslavije je solidan mikro-primer.)

 

Na globalnom nivou to može biti izuzetno zajebano predvideti, a kamoli iskontrolisati. Kriza #1 u oblasti A povlači krizu #2 u oblastima B i C, a one povlače krize #3 i #4 u oblastima D, E, F, i G... Kad postoji spoljni stabilizacioni faktor, to sve može biti relativno manageable - npr. raspad SSSR koji pominješ - ali na globalnom nivou taj faktor ne može da postoji jer su svi bitni igrači duboko isprepleteni! Jedino ako se odnekud pojave vanzemaljci pa nam zavedu red & mir & hladnu fuziju, osim toga teško.

Edited August 28, 2021 by Weenie Pooh

[iDemo]

3 hours ago, Weenie Pooh said:

Nema ovo mnogo sličnosti sa slomom SSSR-a, jedne prilično izolovane države (za standarde svetske sile) koja se raspadala polako ali sigurno jer decenijama nije uspevala da održi korak za superiornom konkurencijom.

100%

Detalji su sokantni i dan danas kad se cita/ju...

 

[Roger Sanchez]

Ne znam koliko je ovo daleko od salafizma, ali nije predaleko

 

 

[Gojko & Stojko]

 

Drugi deo dokumentarnog programa državne televizije o ulozi Mardokovog Foksa na izborima prošle godine i destablizaciji američke demokratije. Obavezno štivo. Ja sam mislio da su likovi sa odnosom prema realnosti i facijalnom ekspresijom kao što ima ova bivša federalna tužiteljka Sidni Pauel mogući samo u crtanom filmu - da mi je neko rekao da ozbiljan reporter kao što je Sara Ferguson može da izazove ponašanje sagovornika kao što to uspeva Saša Baron Koen ne bih mu verovao. Poređenja i upozorenja sa kraja su već poznata, ali dobro da se upozorenja čuju i od republikanskog kongresmena i bivšeg Foks šefa deska za izbore.

 

Fox and the Big Lie - Part Two

...

 

RALPH PETERS ON FOX NEWS: If we really want to honour our troops and support them, pass the defence budget.

 

SARAH FERGUSON:   For ten years Ralph Peters was a Fox News’ strategic analyst. His analysis now is damning of Fox founder and owner Rupert Murdoch.

 

LT. COL. RALPH PETERS (RET.):  My country gave him so much. And how did he repay that? By cynically backing Donald Trump.   Fox has carved out a market among the people from whom I emerged, among the people with whom my coal mining ancestors worked and he's turned them into an angry lumpen proletariat. These are inherently decent people. They're the kind of people that join the military, that do the really crummy jobs to make our country go.   The Fox I joined did represent those people, did speak to those people. It was reflecting their views. But over the years, it became a shaper of their views, deforming their views, corrupting their views. And in pursuit of what? More power and money.

 

...

 

SARAH FERGUSON:   Perhaps it was this moment that finally put paid to my request to interview the current Fox CEO Lachlan Murdoch.

 

LACHLAN MURDOCH: I don’t tell journalists what to say or what to write.  That’s not my role.

 

SARAH FERGUSON:  The Murdochs have always tried to distance themselves from the editorial decisions on their most controversial platforms.  But in 2018 Lachlan made a revealing admission.

 

LACHLAN MURDOCH:  What I do do, running a media organisation is obviously, you know, work closely with the managers of those newsrooms and with the managers of those newspapers and it’s important that they get the ah, the ah, the positioning and the messaging right.

 

...

 

SARAH ELLISON, MEDIA WRITER, “THE WASHINGTON POST”:  He takes this precious moment out of his campaign to make sure that he's got the backing of one of the most powerful media moguls in the world.

 

He takes the time to go to Scotland in order to kiss the ring of Rupert Murdoch.   The former Trump sceptic willingly climbed aboard the presidential golfcart.   Rupert has always wanted access to an American president.

 

SARAH FERGUSON:   And so what does he get in terms of the level of access?

 

SARAH ELLISON:Oh, it's enormously successful. Donald Trump is on the phone to Rupert Murdoch, multiple times a week, sometimes every day. He is one of the top five advisors to Donald Trump. Rupert managed to have the kind of access to an American president that very few people have achieved historically.

 

SARAH FERGUSON:  Rupert Murdoch had done the “positioning”, his Fox News would now do the Trump “messaging”.

 

...

 

LACHLAN MURDOCH:  No, ‘cos I don’t think that’s true, I don’t think that’s true. I don’t think any media organisation should be behind an individual, right? You should never get behind an individual, because indi, individuals can be fallible, right?

 

SARAH FERGUSON:  The view from inside the network was that throughout the Trump presidency Fox News bound itself entirely to a fallible individual.

 

 

CHRIS STIREWALT: Trump was intent on programming the network, and ultimately succeeded in his own way, right?

 

CARL CAMERON: Fox certainly has participated in the destruction of democracy by promoting the types of things that Donald Trump did. Now, that’s a pox on Fox.

 

LT COL. RALPH PETERS (RET.):    The green room over the last several years into the Trump administration, when I left, the guests got more and more bizarre, more distasteful. The green room started to be like the bar scene in the first Star Wars film. These people are freaks. And then you realise you’re one of the freaks.

 

SARAH FERGUSON:  What do you mean by freaks?

 

Lt. Col. RALPH PETERS (Ret.):  People with no qualifications, who could not even speak cogently, who could only speak the lines they’d memorised praising Trump as though he were a heathen god that had to be appeased with slavish rhetoric.

 

...

 

SARAH FERGUSON:  Adam Kinzinger is one of two Republicans on the House Committee investigating the assault on the Capitol.

 

CAPITOL POLICE OFFICER HARRY DUNN: One woman in a pink MAGA shirt yelled,  ‘you hear that guys, this nigger voted for Joe Biden’. Then the crowd, perhaps around twenty people, joined in screaming “Boo. Fucking nigger”.

 

ADAM KINZINGER: I never expected today to be quite as emotional for me as it has been.

 

SARAH FERGUSON:  Kinzinger says Fox News and its owners Rupert and Lachlan Murdoch also have questions to answer.

 

ADAM KINZINGER: If you own the network, certainly you have to make a decision. What do I want this network to be based on? What do I want it to, to do? Is it going to be a straight news source, is it going to be opinion? Is it going to push lies? Is it not?

 

I think when you have anchors pushing lies as facts, it's really dangerous.

 

SARAH FERGUSON: In the aftermath of the Capitol assault, when armed soldiers were still on the streets of Washington, James Murdoch gave an interview saying,  “The sacking of the Capitol is proof positive that what we thought was dangerous is indeed very, very much so.

“Those outlets that propagate lies to their audience have unleashed insidious and uncontrollable forces that will be with us for years.”

 

 

SARAH ELLISON: James is essentially saying I told you so. He's looking at what happened on January 6^th and saying, ‘this is what I was warning you about, this is what I was trying to avoid’.

 

...

 

SARAH ELLISON: Now that you have a much smaller operation that is primarily built around Fox News, it's a disastrous financial threat because it's an existential threat.

 

MICHAEL WOLFF:  I don't really think that it's a danger to the company.

 

SARAH FERGUSON:  Why not?

 

MICHAEL WOLFF:   Because, because this is America, um, that's not what happens, you know, this is, what happens in, in Australia and what happens in the UK, is, a different, um, a different universe when it comes to the free press. That's why Rupert Murdoch is in America, not in Australia. In some, in some respects, you know, media enterprises have a, have an extreme degree of, um, invulnerability.

 

...

 

ADAM KINZINGER:  We've gotten lazy with democracy, we've assumed it will always hold. I think this shows that it really has to be a contract between people, like an understanding that this is how we're going to do it.

 

My biggest concern now is division in this country and an acceptance that the rule of law is only based on who has power at the time.

 

CHRIS STIREWALT: If we don't find in the United States a healthier way to run the news business, we're going to fall apart. This is killing us. We saw the consequences on January 6^th. We are rapidly, radically eroding public confidence in institutions for the most rotten of reason, which is profit and power.

 

...

 

SaE

[Micko8]

 

Pitam se   da li postoji ludja zapadna drzava od SAD-a u ovom trenutku

Edited September 2, 2021 by Micko8

[Tsai]

Protestantski talibani kidaju ovih dana

[eumeswil]

 

[Moonwalker]

Mexico decriminalizes abortion, a dramatic step in world’s second-biggest Catholic country
 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/09/07/mexico-abortion-supreme-court/

 

Quote

MEXICO CITY — Mexico’s supreme court voted unanimously on Tuesday to decriminalize abortion, a striking step in a country with one of the world’s largest Catholic populations and a move that contrasts sharply with tighter restrictions introduced across the border in Texas.

 

Eight of the 11 supreme court judges hadexpressed support for decriminalization in arguments that began Monday, making the decision virtually inevitable.

 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Moonwalker