Drugi svetski rat - opsta istorija

[Filipenko]

Ajde nemojmo se i ovde ideoloski zatrpavati.

Ankete ko ankete. Slom Nemacke 45 je jedno a pobeda nad Nemackom kao ishod celog rata je drugo. 

Ko je koliki doprinos dao trebalo bi gledati od 39 - par godina Velika Britanija je na ledjima jedina nosila teret borbe protiv Nemacke i Japana u prekomorskim zemljama a to je period kad su ovi bili najsnazniji i u usponu. I nije izgubila. SSSR je nemackoj vojsci unistio brojnost, materijal i ono sto je najvaznije duh i moral. Amerika i njeni reursi su puno doprineli u samoj zavrsnoj fazi u Evropi, ali morali su praviti balans u interesima - za njih je najvaznija bitka tokom celog rata bila ona protiv Japana, za vlast na Pacifiku.

I konacni uspeh je dosao zahvaljujuci sadejstvu svih tih cinilaca

 

 

To je jedna od žešćih zabluda. Nemačka je u napadu na Poljsku dobar deo artiljerije i komore još uvek vukla konjima, a u napadu na Francusku je imala manje tenkova nego samo Francuska (naravno, koristila ih je na ubojitiji način, grupisano, a ne kao Francuzi razvučeno po celom frontu). Kada je Britanija ostala sama, Hitler donosi stratešku odluku da se refokusira na istok i napadne SSSR, koji je izneo rat sa 80 do 90% nemačkih efektiva.

 

Naravno, ne čudi me da se to u Britaniji predstavlja kao veliki uspeh, krucijalan za dalji tok rata 

[kapetanm]

Prokuvao mi laptop pa sam zaboravio ono sta sam poceo. Filipe, kakve veze sa temom imaju nemacki resursi spram Poljske i Francuske u napadu na njih, kad su daleko pametnije iskorisceni? Tako da je Britanija ostala sama, opet, a imajmo u vidu da je sem Evrope imaala da ratuje na vise kontinenata

Pri tom ne umanjujem presudni napor SSSR u narednoj fazi rata, i ciji je narod podneo najvece zrtve a njegova vojska stavila tacku na i u Evropi

[Zaz_pi]

Britanija je zvanicno usla u rat sa Japanom krajem 1941, kada su se vec vodile borbe oko Moskve. Britanija je katastrofalno prosla u borbi sa Japanom u prvom naletu Japanaca. Cuvena japanska "Malajska kampanja" kada su sa duplo manje vojske(oko 70 000) razbucali Britance i njihove kolonijalne armije za mesec dana. To su oni isti Japanci koji su 1938/39 doziveli poraze od Crvene armije u Mandzuriji. Ti kada spominjes rat mislis samo na Evropu. Ali SSSR je vodio rat na Dalekom istoku dok je neko govorio o miru u Evropi posle sastanka sa Hitlerom u Minhenu.

Japanci su zarobili oko 40 000 vojnika Britanskog komonvelta a ukupni gubici su bili oko 60 000 od 140 000. Japanci su imali gubitke od oko 6 000 ljudi.

To je januar 1942, tada Crvena armija razbija Vermaht pred Moskvom, prakticno samostalno, i zavrsava se prica o brzom uspehu Nemaca i Blickrigu.

Britanija je imala znacajnu ulogu u vazdusnoj bici ali kopneno oni nisu nikako omeli Hitlera u njegovim planovima, cak ni pomorski sve dok nije napredovala tehnologija i nije razbijena sifra na Enigmi. Nemci su Britance i SAD tesko unistavali u "Vucijem coporu".

 

edit: nikako ne treba smenuti sa uma da je Vermaht bio napredniji od japanske vojske.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Zaz_pi

[Filipenko]

Ja bih samo dodao da je Velika Britanija, koja je toliko dugo ratovala na toliko kontinenata, imala svega ~380k žrtava u ratu uključujući sve prekomorske teritorije, a od toga je najveći broj otpao na sirote Gurke, Australopitekuse i ostale Kanađane koji su se tukli za britansku imperiju širom svih kontinenata, uključujući i Evropu. Sramna je tvrdnja da je Britanija imala ikakav doprinos ozbiljniji od levog smetala. Poslužila je kao stejdžing point za američku invaziju Evrope i to je to. Imala je sreću da je Hitler imao neke druge planove, a te probleme u kući (germanskoj, dabome) rešio da ostavi za kasnije.

[apostata]

Statement by Martine Reicherts, EU Justice Commissioner on the Europe-wide Day of Remembrance for the victims of all totalitarian and authoritarian regimes

75 years ago today – on 23 August 1939 – two totalitarian regimes signed a non-aggression pact. This pact of Nazi Germany under Hitler and the Soviet Union under Stalin would pave the way for the most brutal war to this day, leading to many years of fear, horror and pain for the victims of these regimes.

Today is a day to remember all those who suffered under totalitarian and authoritarian rule. Today we reflect together upon the lessons learnt from this horrific chapter in European history.

The most important lesson is that remembering the past is crucial for building the future. That is what we have been doing over the past decades. As a result, the Europe we see today rests on strong values: dignity, freedom, democracy, the rule of law and human rights including the rights of persons belonging to minorities.

Today is a reminder that we must not take these achievements for granted. Peace, democracy and fundamental rights are not a given. We have to defend them, every day of the year.

 

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-14-255_en.htm

[apostata]

Zna li se na kakvom je uzorku rađeno ispitivanje?

Znam samo ovo:

 

http://www.les-crises.fr/la-fabrique-du-cretin-defaite-nazis/

Edited August 31, 2014 by apostata

[Filipenko]

Ova diskusija o tome kako Francuzi vide dešavanja iz WW2 me podsetila na priče o Staljinu koji je američkom diplomati, na primedbu da je verovatno bilo veliko zadovoljstvo i uspeh za Staljina što su Sovjeti zauzeli Berlin, odgovorio:

 

"Car Aleksandar je zauzeo Pariz" 

[namenski]

 

Statement by Martine Reicherts, EU Justice Commissioner on the Europe-wide Day of Remembrance for the victims of all totalitarian and authoritarian regimes

75 years ago today – on 23 August 1939 – two totalitarian regimes signed a non-aggression pact. This pact of Nazi Germany under Hitler and the Soviet Union under Stalin would pave the way for the most brutal war to this day, leading to many years of fear, horror and pain for the victims of these regimes.

Today is a day to remember all those who suffered under totalitarian and authoritarian rule. Today we reflect together upon the lessons learnt from this horrific chapter in European history.

The most important lesson is that remembering the past is crucial for building the future. That is what we have been doing over the past decades. As a result, the Europe we see today rests on strong values: dignity, freedom, democracy, the rule of law and human rights including the rights of persons belonging to minorities.

Today is a reminder that we must not take these achievements for granted. Peace, democracy and fundamental rights are not a given. We have to defend them, every day of the year.

 

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-14-255_en.htm

 

Jes vala, lepo covek kaze, samo je vajni Evropljanin zaboravio prigodnu ilustraciju.

 

[url=http://s797.photobucket.com/user/namenski/media/Low_00238_zps977b61a9.jpg.html][/url]

 

Edit: Evropljanka, isti ...

Edited August 31, 2014 by namenski

[apostata]

Nešto mnogo oni zaboravljaju, ali baš mnogo.

[Yoda]

A bio je dobar Uncle Joe, sve do 1945...

 

Edited September 1, 2014 by Yoda

[Turnbull]

Kakavo čerečenje Snajdera uživao sam. Nisam znao bre koja je to revizionistička stoka.

 

Timothy Snyder’s Lies

 

Mali preview:
 

 

But Bloodlands goes farther. However dismissive Dawidowicz is of the Soviet high command, she at least recognizes that “joining the partisans offered the ghetto Jews, in addition to the opportunity of fighting Germans, also at least an even chance of survival under conditions of personal autonomy.” Snyder will have none of it. His condemnation of the partisans is total. “Partisan warfare,” he writes, “was (and is) illegal, since it undermines the convention of uniformed armies directing violence against each other rather than against surrounding populations.” The effect of partisan warfare, therefore, was to exacerbate conditions in Belarus and other areas by subjecting locals to an “escalation of both German and Soviet violence.” Bloodlands adds:

When Soviet partisans sabotaged trains, they were in effect ensuring that the population near the site would be exterminated. When Soviet partisans laid mines, they knew that some would detonate under the bodies of Soviet citizens. The Germans swept mines by forcing locals, Belarusians and Jews, to walk hand in hand over minefields.

In general, such loss of human life was of little concern to the Soviet leadership. The people who died had been under German occupation, and were therefore suspect and perhaps even more expendable than the average Soviet citizen. German reprisals also ensured that the ranks of the partisans swelled, as survivors often had no home, no livelihood, and no family to which to return.

Since Nazis and Soviets were morally indistinguishable, their actions had to be as well. Jews who escaped to join the partisans did so, according to Snyder, “at the cost of partaking in the descent into mass violence.” They “were serving the Soviet regime, and were taking part in a Soviet policy to bring down retribution upon civilians” — a characterization that comes very close to the Home Army’s description of the Jews as Polish national enemies.

As with the denizens of the Warsaw Ghetto, one can only wonder what Snyder would have had Jews do instead. Faye Schulman was a nineteen-year-old girl living in a small town in eastern Poland when the Wehrmacht massacred her family along with the rest of the Jewish population in August 1941. Temporarily spared because of her skills as a professional photographer, she fled with the partisans at the first opportunity and, to her gratitude, was accepted into their ranks:

The fighting had ended. The partisans were returning to their bases, and I was with them and alive. It felt like a dream. I had been accepted into the Soviet partisans! I wasn’t sure what was waiting for me now, what kind of a life I would have. But I knew I was very lucky. I was now a partisan, no longer afraid of the Nazis. I tore off the yellow star of David. We started our journey into the woods.

“I resolved to volunteer for active combat operations, to fight for my people — for Jewish dignity and honor — and for an end to the Nazi killing machine,” Schulman added in her memoirs. Does this make her a criminal? What should a captured Soviet soldier have done if he was able to escape a prisoner-of-war camp in which the death rate, due to overcrowding, exposure, starvation, and appalling sanitary conditions, approached two percent per day? If he was lucky enough to make it to the forests, his only hope was join forces with other escapees, obtain a weapon, and fight for survival.

The same goes for victims of slave roundups. As Snyder concedes, Nazi troops by 1943 were sweeping through Belarus, killing women and children and sending men off to slave labor in Germany. What could such people do except resist by all available means? One does not know what to make of Snyder’s complaint that partisan warfare is contrary to the rules of war by the same token since the fighters were taking up arms against a military machine that engaged in criminality on an unprecedented scale by slaughtering Jews and Communists and brutalizing the general population. But since the Soviets were complicit in Nazi aggression, resistance was no less criminal than the invasion itself. Since the Soviets “allowed Hitler to begin a war” in 1939, Snyder writes, they had no right to complain when he turned his guns on them in 1941.

 

Edited September 11, 2014 by Turnbull

[Perihelion]

Ja bih samo dodao da je Velika Britanija, koja je toliko dugo ratovala na toliko kontinenata, imala svega ~380k žrtava u ratu uključujući sve prekomorske teritorije, a od toga je najveći broj otpao na sirote Gurke, Australopitekuse i ostale Kanađane koji su se tukli za britansku imperiju širom svih kontinenata, uključujući i Evropu. Sramna je tvrdnja da je Britanija imala ikakav doprinos ozbiljniji od levog smetala. Poslužila je kao stejdžing point za američku invaziju Evrope i to je to. Imala je sreću da je Hitler imao neke druge planove, a te probleme u kući (germanskoj, dabome) rešio da ostavi za kasnije.

 

Tačno, i to je dobro za nju. U pravu si za sve što si rekao, osim to da je Britanija jedina sila koja je ušla u rat (nespremna) radi odbrane principa i civilizacijskih načela a ne zato što je napadnuta (kao što je to slučaj sa SSSR ili SAD).

[April]

Pakt Ribentropa i Molotova, kao i sve druge totalitarne igrarije sa milionima ljudskih zivota, jedna je od najvecih sramota u istoriji Evrope i sveta. 

 

Pakt Ribentropa i Molotova je pičkin dim za svinjariju na Jalti. Jalta je unesrećila Evropu milion puta više.

[Lord Protector]

Poljska nije bila ni malo naivna pred drugi svetski rat. Upravo su oni zajedno sa Nemcima i Mađarima rasparčali Čehoslovačku 1938. To se sada baca pod tepih, i od nje se pravi totalna žrtva zbog zapadne rusofobije, što nije tačno. Najebali jesu u WW2 (Katin, logori i ostalo) ali nisu ni oni cvećke. Kad su mogli uvek su izigravali imperiju i hteli maksimalno teritorijalno da se prošire na račun suseda.

Edited October 16, 2014 by slow

[frn1782]

Naprotiv, Rusija ne samo sto je imala kolonije, vec ih drzi i do danasnjeg dana. Kao i u mnogim drugim civilizacijskim procesima, nije ucestvovala ni u dekolonizaciji.

duhovito

Istorijska skola Milana St Protica

 

A ako govorimo o nesrecnim Poljacima u istorijskom kontekstu ono sto su im radili Nemci i Rusi zajedno je pickin dim za ono sto su im uradili Shvedjani pa puj pike sad su best friends.