Automobili na elektricni pogon

[Ras]

Komentar je zapravo izrečen u kontekstu polemike sa prethodne strane, iskreno izmiče mi globalna slika i ne znam šta je bolje: električni automobili, ili ne?

Međutim, kada VW kaže da će u 10 narednih godina u razvoj e automobila uložiti ne znam koliko stotina hiljada milijardi evra (i nije jedini, naravno) bespredmetno je da polemišemo o trajnosti baterija, ceni e automobila i drugo: ta budućnost je već sasvim izvesna.

Koliko je bliska, u smislu kada će (i da li?) e automobili preuzeti primat, možda će se naslutiti već sledeće godine, kada VW predstavi novu generaciju Golfa.

Primeri Hyundaija Kona, ili novog P 208 jasno govore u kome se smeru stvari pomeraju - to su platforme projektovane i realizovane da nose različite pogone: konvencionalne, hibridne, električne...

U tom svetlu zanimljiv mi je bio intervju nekog od predstavnika Mazde na nedavnom salonu automobila u Ženevi, u kome na neizbežno pitanje o elektrifikaciji jasno kaže da najmanje 5 narednih godina poslovne planove vezuju za konvencionalne pogone.   

Edited April 23, 2019 by Ras

[Ras]

Još jedan primer, Fordova prezentacija s početka meseca:

 

 

[Lancia]

Nova generacija Golfa nece imati el. verziju.

Inace otkad je pocela hajka na dizel motore, prodaja je pala (u Spaniji) za preko 35% a u istom tom razdoblju je zagadjenost  u velikim gradovima je porasla. Oprecna su stanovista strucnjaka o elektrifikaciji vozila a nece biti nas laika. Jedino sto bode oci je prisustvo rupa u zakonu ili direktivi od strane EU, naime proizvodjaci, koji nisu u stanju (trenutno ili ce to postati hronicno kad su manje firme u pitanju) koriste opciju otkupa kvota zagadjivanja od onih koji su dalako ispod te kvote ili su na nuli, kao npr Tesla. 

[Shan Jan]

Sobzirom da vecina ljudi zivi u gradovima, skroz je ekoloski smisleno preci na elektricna vozila - vise ljudi ce biti spaseno buke i udisanja otrovnih gasova. 

 

 

[Ras]

15 minutes ago, Majo said:

Nova generacija Golfa nece imati el. verziju.

 

 

Mirni smo još nekoliko generacija  

[Lancia]

2 minutes ago, Ras said:

 

Mirni smo još nekoliko generacija  

Ja sam skroz kul, jos sam pazario i dizela da vas mladje saranim sto pre 

Zaboravih kako se zove sad ta el. serija VW-a, ali nece vise biti elektrifikacije postojecih i buducih modela koje pokrece motor s unutrasnjim sagorevanjem. Sad ce to da bude odvojeno i dizajnerski.

[jezovuk]

VW ID

Planiraju golf klasu, suv i kombi valjda za početak.

[hazard]

On 23.4.2019. at 11:52, gone fishing said:

neprijatne činjenice da kapacitet tih baterija vremenom opada i da će za 5-6 godina biti za zamenu, a cena baterija je pola cene kola, vaistinu isplativa alternativa koja ima budućnost

 

Ne.

 

Baterije traju i trajaće u većini el. automobila 10+ godina

[pasha]

On 23.4.2019. at 13:24, Majo said:

Nova generacija Golfa nece imati el. verziju.

Inace otkad je pocela hajka na dizel motore, prodaja je pala (u Spaniji) za preko 35% a u istom tom razdoblju je zagadjenost  u velikim gradovima je porasla. Oprecna su stanovista strucnjaka o elektrifikaciji vozila a nece biti nas laika. Jedino sto bode oci je prisustvo rupa u zakonu ili direktivi od strane EU, naime proizvodjaci, koji nisu u stanju (trenutno ili ce to postati hronicno kad su manje firme u pitanju) koriste opciju otkupa kvota zagadjivanja od onih koji su dalako ispod te kvote ili su na nuli, kao npr Tesla. 

 

Nemci imaju veliki problem zbog odbacivanja dizela.

Oni su mnogo ulozili u razvoj dizel motora i bili su ispred u toj tehnologiji.

Evo jednog primera,

 

Quote

Electric vehicles emit more CO2 than diesel ones, German study shows

Electric vehicles in Germany account for more CO2 emissions than diesel ones, according to a study by German scientists.

When CO2 emissions linked to the production of batteries and the German energy mix - in which coal still plays an important role - are taken into consideration, electric vehicles emit 11% to 28% more than their diesel counterparts, according to the study, presented on Wednesday at the Ifo Institute in Munich.

Mining and processing the lithium, cobalt and manganese used for batteries consume a great deal of energy. A Tesla Model 3 battery, for example, represents between 11 and 15 tonnes of CO2. Given a lifetime of 10 years and an annual travel distance of 15,000 kilometres, this translates into 73 to 98 grams of CO2 per kilometre, scientists Christoph Buchal, Hans-Dieter Karl and Hans-Werner Sinn noted in their study.

The CO2 given off to produce the electricity that powers such vehicles also needs to be factored in, they say.

When all these factors are considered, each Tesla emits 156 to 180 grams of CO2 per kilometre, which is more than a comparable diesel vehicle produced by the German company Mercedes, for example.

The German researchers, therefore, take issue with the fact that European officials view electric vehicles as zero-emission ones. They note further that the EU target of 59 grams of CO2 per km by 2030 corresponds to a “technically unrealistic” consumption of 2.2 litres of diesel or 2.6 litres of gas per 100 kms.

These new limits pressure German and other European car manufacturers into switching massively to electric vehicles whereas, the researchers feel, it would have been preferable to opt for methane engines, “whose emissions are one-third less than those of diesel motors.”

 

http://brusselstimes.com/business/technology/15050/electric-vehicles-emit-more-co2-than-diesel-ones,-german-study-shows

 

 

[pasha]

Inace "Tesla" ima  probleme sa baterijama po pricama "iznutra". Prica se da aljkavo rade na baterijama, cak i Panasonic pere ruke od njih, i da su relativno cesta zapaljivanja automobila posledica toga. Ako se to ispostavi tacno "Tesla" ce biti kraj.

 

Quote

Insiders describe a world of chaos and waste at Panasonic's massive battery-making operation for Tesla

Insiders have described a chaotic environment in Panasonic's battery-making operation in the Nevada desert, one where standard operating procedures go ignored, expensive mistakes are born from carelessness, and half a million pieces of scrap are generated daily.

Last week, Nikkei reported that Tesla and Panasonic would freeze plans to expand the Gigafactory. Tesla's stock fell, while Panasonic's rose after the news. Tesla responded by saying that both companies were still putting "substantial funds" into the Gigafactory, but that there's more "output to be gained from improving existing production equipment."

Tesla CEO Elon Musk called Panasonic's production rate a "constraint on Model 3 output" that the company has known about since July.

Together they tell a story of an operation that is still trying to get its bearings as batteries roll off the production line and into Model 3s. And just like on the Tesla side of the Gigafactory, there's intense pressure to meet production goals and work at breakneck speed.

A Panasonic spokesperson replied to a list of Business Insider's detailed questions about these issues with the following statement:

Panasonic produces the most advanced electric vehicle battery cells because we pay exceptional attention to quality. Our quality-control protocols are industry standards and include cleanroom environments and laboratory-like working conditions. The battery cells go through several testing gates before they are released to Tesla, and Tesla separately tests the cells after delivery. We are proud to have helped propel one of the most exciting revolutions in the auto industry.

 

 

Quote

Tiny little big mistakes

Quickly, here are a few very broad words on how lithium-ion batteries are made.

The inside of the battery is made up of a sheet of a positively charged electrode (anode) and a sheet of a negatively charged electrode (cathode); there is a thin material separating the two. All of that rolled together makes the inside of a battery cell.

Panasonic sends Tesla about 3 million battery cells daily, making this a massive operation that comes with all of what that entails — giant 16-foot-high mixers churning lithium and other chemicals, standard operating procedures meant to keep volatile ingredients clean, and a tracking system to follow materials as they go through the production process.

The current and former employees told Business Insider that standard operating procedures often go ignored without consequence at the facility.

On several occasions, something has fallen into one of the 16-foot mixers — which contain a blend of chemicals, including volatile lithium — inside the plant, three people with knowledge of the situation told Business Insider. That "something" — whether it be scissors, a roll of tape, a tool — is generally found when the mixer is being cleaned.

"People just don't have the integrity to say, 'Hey, I did something wrong,'" one former employee said.

Taking a spill

In September, there was an oil spill that sent Panasonic's operation into crisis mode for about two weeks, Business Insider also learned.

The spill was detected on September 17, according to internal documents viewed by Business Insider, but it's unclear exactly when it started. Mechanical oil got onto one of Panasonic's massive machines used to press cathode material into a sheet.

The machine then contaminated any of the product it touched. Employees had to stop what they were doing and sift through millions of nearly finished battery cells to find potentially affected product, sources said.

According to documents reviewed by Business Insider, as well as accounts from employees, Panasonic searched for product that had gone through the contaminated machine as far back as September 11. The search extended to the latest stages of the production process, and all the product that Panasonic suspected to be contaminated was scrapped, according to the internal documents and the employees.

 

https://www2.greencarreports.com/news/1122728_report-tesla-panasonic-battery-waste-could-lead-to-battery-flaws

[Peter Fan]

On 26.4.2019. at 17:19, hazard said:

Baterije traju i trajaće u većini el. automobila 10+ godina

Mislim da ovo "trajanje" treba definisati malo bolje, a to je koliki ce kapacitet tih baterija biti tada vs. inicijalni, i kako ce taj kapacitet uticati na prakticnost auta nakon 10 godina? 
 

[Tpojka]

Tesla daje garanciju 8 years or 100kmi (which comes first) na 70% kapaciteta. Tako na sajtu piše.

[Peter Fan]

12 minutes ago, Tpojka said:

Tesla daje garanciju 8 years or 100kmi (which comes first) na 70% kapaciteta. Tako na sajtu piše.

OK hvala.

 

Na stranu sto ni sama firma vjerovatno nece prezivjeti 8 godina, za americke pojmove 100k milja je nista,

 

Poveden tvojim primjerom pogledah sad Nissan Leaf i oni daju 5 god/ 60k milja za istih 30% gubitak kapaciteta. To je prilicno lose sa stanovista dugorocne vrijednosti i isplativosti samog auta.

[Bujodrag]

A neki sad prosečan automobil na benzin ili naftu, koliko može da predje s punim rezervoarom?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2019 by Bujodrag

[renne]

Oko 900km