Španija i Katalonija

[harper]

Pa ne znam šta se očekivali, da Španjolci mirno sede i skrštenih ruku gledaju kako odlazi Katalonija?

 

 

Realno bi vise postigli da su upravo to uradili nego sto ovo rade. Ovakve stvari se ne gase insistiranjem na fiktivnoj legalnosti i provociranjem kontra emocija vec argumentima i taktom.

 

Bar smo mi eksperti da znamo kako ne treba.

[MancMellow]

Ovo je ko da gledam Almodovarovu verziju Selo gori a baba se češlja. Izgleda mnogo bolje, al u suštini je isto sranje, a najgore je što nijedna strana nije svesna kakvom se vatrom igra. Što, na žalost, mi odlično znamo. 

[hazard]

 

 

Istraživanje spomenuto na naslovnici, a koje objavljuju na svom sajtu na prigodnom .scot domenu ima dva scenarija - prvi je referendum bez odobrenja španskih vlasti, a drugi s njim. U prvom je rezultat 83-16 u korist nezavisnosti uz izlaznost od 62%, a u drugom 66-32 uz izlaznost od 77%.

 

 

http://www.politico.eu/article/catalonia-referendum-independence-want-to-vote-not-secede/

 

 

For years, the Spanish sociology research center CIS has asked Catalans and other Spaniards about the territorial organization of regions in Spain. The question was not a binary “yes” or “no” but it explicitly included the possibility of regions becoming independent countries.

 

Among Catalans, the percentage of those ticking the independence option increased slowly between 2006 and 2011 from 15 percent to 30 percent. It surged to its highest level in 2013, after the Popular Party came to power, reaching 40.6 percent. It has slowly decreased since and now stands between 30- 35 percent.

 

The data support the idea that a significant percentage of Catalans that approves of holding a referendum doesn’t directly support the idea of Catalonia becoming an independent country.

 

Furthermore, a large number of Catalans who say they want to vote are “weak supporters” of a referendum as a solution — especially if it is not sanctioned by Madrid.

 

According to various polls conducted over the past three years, at least one-third of the 70-80 percent of Catalans who support a referendum would only favor holding this referendum if it were previously negotiated with the central government.

 

In November 2014, when the Catalan government held a nonbinding pseudo-referendum that was declared illegal by the Constitutional Court, only around 37 percent of eligible voters went to the polls, even though there were no restrictions to take part.

 

Similarly, recent polling shows that only 34 percent of Catalans think the upcoming unilateral referendum on October 1 meets the necessary guarantees to be declared legal and valid. This percentage is lower than the proportion of Catalans — 48 percent — who indicated in a survey conducted by the Catalan sociology research center CEO in June that they wanted a referendum even if Madrid objected to it.

[hazard]

To bi značio 51,3% stanovništva Katalonije za nezavisnost. 

 

Ne ide se sa tim u ovakav belaj. 

 

Iz gornjeg članka:

 

 

What this all boils down to is that Catalans — like citizens of other post-industrial countries — want to be consulted on their future. What it does not mean is that a referendum on secession from Spain is the only response to this desire for self-determination, as nationalists claim.

 

Indeed, an independence referendum is particularly dangerous in a region like Catalonia.

 

Referendums are not suited to divided societies. Places like Belgium and Northern Ireland, for example — where cleavages are based on entrenched ethnic, linguistic or religious divisions — hardly ever resort to them. And, when they do, the experience has been traumatic, both exposing and deepening sectarian hostility.

 

Divided societies need powersharing strategies to defuse conflicts. Given the strong correlation between language and political preferences on the issue of Catalan independence, a referendum will become a divisive zero-sum mechanism, in which a small — and probably unstable — majority imposes its preferences in a manner not easily reversible.

 

The outcome will be undesirable from a democratic standpoint, for both sides of the debate.

[MancMellow]

Ne znam, ne sviđa mi se uopšte, obe strane su otišle do tačaka sa kojih nema povratka i nemam pojma šta će biti sutra. Ako proglase nezavisnost, aktiviraće Madrid taj član 155 ustava i razjuriti regionalnu vladu i uvesti (bar privremenu) direktnu upravu, de facto političko vanredno stanje. Posle toga...bog sveti zna. 

Edited October 1, 2017 by MancMellow

[hazard]

Izgleda da u španskoj politici kompromis nije nešto što se često dešava.

 

 

But the vehemence of the animosity between Madrid and Barcelona can’t solely be chalked up to the territorial debate. The reasons behind it go to the heart of how politics works in Spain.

 

“We have a political culture according to which the priority is to maintain your stance and not make concessions,” said Oriol Bartomeus, a political scientist at Barcelona’s Autònoma University.

 

“If you look at the history of Spain, reform has always been very difficult to carry out, because reform implies making pacts and therefore making concessions. In Spain, that way of doing things doesn’t exist.”

 

This intransigence doesn’t only affect Spain’s conservatives and Catalonia’s separatists. The leftist Podemos is known for its refusal to compromise and the Spanish Socialist Party was thrown into chaos last year when leader Pedro Sánchez refused to abstain in Congress, obstructing Rajoy’s efforts to form a new government.

 

The rigid political culture echoes the historical and much-cited concept of “two Spains” — a country so deeply politically divided that those on the left and right feel as though they belong to separate nations.

 

According to Bartomeus, the divide remains a defining feature of modern politics in large part because the country’s conservative powers have tended to flourish without needing to introduce major political or territorial reforms.

 

“The other side has only been able to fight this through insurrection,” he said. “So Spain has always been a country of conflict.”

 

Spain is a “country of extremes,” said Dolores Agenjo, a former school principal in the Catalan town of L’Hospitalet de Llobregat.

 

Agenjo drew ire from many pro-independence Catalans when she refused to allow her school to be used as a voting station in a non-binding independence referendum in November 2014. Her decision, she said, was driven by the vote’s dubious legality.

 

Agenjo is part of the leftist civic group Plataforma Ahora. But it irks her that in the eyes of many, her unionist sympathies automatically place her on the right.

 

“Franco did a lot of damage because he contaminated the idea of Spain,” she said. “If you say ‘I’m Spanish, I love my country, I want a united Spain,’ it’s as if you’re pro-Franco.

 

“The political right has appropriated the idea of defending Spain and the left, in response to this appropriation, has become seen as anti-Spanish because it’s reluctant to defend Spain and wave the Spanish flag.”

 

No middle ground

 

As a result, a large section of the Catalan population, who favor neither independence nor the brand of unity advocated by Rajoy, has been marginalized.

 

Bartomeus, of Barcelona’s UAB, believes around 1.5 million of Catalonia’s 5.5 million eligible voters fall into this category.

 

And yet, these voters are scantly represented in the political arena. 

 

“This is a conflict that is depicted only in black and white and nobody seems interested in looking at the gray areas,” said Barcelona resident Javier Castellanos, who used to support independence but says he now feels disillusioned.

 

“Either you’re in favor or against. When this kind of divide over nationality happens, it’s always the same.”

 

The ideological clash at the heart of this standoff — self-determination versus rule of law — in combination with electoral self-interest and a rigid Spanish political culture, means the Catalan question has snowballed into Spain’s biggest crisis of the democratic era.

 

To resolve it, the “two Spains” will have to acknowledge shades of gray ignored for many years.

[MancMellow]

Sam ustav je bio kompromis. Na neki način ga gaze i jedni i drugi. A koliko pratim anglosaksonske medije u principu im poručuju - smanjite gas, napravite kompromis neki. Ovo je samo još jdan takav članak. Ali obe strane se ponašaju kao da im je ovo super dobrodošlo. Ma sve već viđeno, 

[marv]

meni je neverovatno da se spanija ponasa ovako glupo i naivno, zar im nije jasno da je ovo nezaustavljivo. imaju primer srbije i primer engleske i izaberu ovo prvo 

[vememah]

Among Catalans, the percentage of those ticking the independence option increased slowly between 2006 and 2011 from 15 percent to 30 percent. It surged to its highest level in 2013, after the Popular Party came to power, reaching 40.6 percent. It has slowly decreased since and now stands between 30- 35 percent.

 

Pa neće biti.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum,_2017#Opinion_poll_sources

[vememah]

[Budja]

Uh, gde je sad Kilbi kada je najpotrebniji za onu tezu kako liberali neminovno zavrse u fasizmu (Riverin intervju koji je okacio Hazard)

 

Zanimljivo je kako Rivera vidi nacionalizam kod Katalonaca a ne vidi ga u sopstvenoj partiji koja se po ovom pitanju pozicionirala desno cak i od PPa.

 

Takodje je zanimljivo koga Politicio intervjuise kao autoritet, uz neminovni clanak:

 

 

Catalan referendum stokes fears of Russian influence

Online activities designed to cast doubt on Europe’s democratic processes, experts warn.

By Mark Scott and Diego Torres

 

9/29/17, 3:51 PM CET

Updated

9/30/17, 2:51 PM CET

Edited October 1, 2017 by Budja

[dragance]

Lepi ovi mitinzi za jedinstvo Spanije.

 

Uhapsite Pudgemonta

 

Rajoy, cabrón, defiende la nación

 

sa sve najgorom pojavom na desnici Spanije - Esperanza Aguirre.

Sunce ti, kao preslikana situacija iz SFRJ. Još samo da im govornik uzvrati da će ga uhapsiti i da ih ne čuje dobro, ali da i on voli njih.

[hazard]

Uh, gde je sad Kilbi kada je najpotrebniji za onu tezu kako liberali neminovno zavrse u fasizmu (Riverin intervju koji je okacio Hazard)

 

Zanimljivo je kako Rivera vidi nacionalizam kod Katalonaca a ne vidi ga u sopstvenoj partiji koja se po ovom pitanju pozicionirala desno cak i od PPa.

 

Takodje je zanimljivo koga Politicio intervjuise kao autoritet, uz neminovni clanak:

 

A kamo onaj dječak levičar koji je završio kao katalonski nacionalista?

 

Mislim, Rivera je u poređenju sa njim super-razuman. Ne vidim kako bilo kome sa strane ovi katalonski separatisti mogu biti simpatični. Mislim, miks disunašinovcizma i osećaja kulturološke superiornosti, sve na bazi klasičnog ksenofobičnog lokal-nacionalizma. Bljak.

[Budja]

A kamo onaj dječak levičar koji je završio kao katalonski nacionalista?

 

Mislim, Rivera je u poređenju sa njim super-razuman. Ne vidim kako bilo kome sa strane ovi katalonski separatisti mogu biti simpatični. Mislim, miks disunašinovcizma i osećaja kulturološke superiornosti, sve na bazi klasičnog ksenofobičnog lokal-nacionalizma. Bljak.

 

Opis ovih separatista je  ok, ali naravno da Rivera nije razuman.

 

 

Ja sam vec rekao da u ovoj celoj fertutmi jedino razumno deluju Podemos. 

[Kampokei]

Katalonska policija uglavnom bleji, a spanska i guardia civil intervenisu na birackim mestima. Vidim ima i lakse povredjenih, neka okrvavljena lica.