Španija i Katalonija

[Kampokei]

Bjork prva priznaje.

 

Ja nikada nisam bio za nezavisnost Katalonije, meni katalonstina ima najvise smisla kao neki mali simpaticni hejter medju onima koji ceo taj "Hispanidad" shvataju ozbiljno. Ne mislim ni da je opcija za nezavisnost imala kriticnu masu. Ali veliko je pitanje kako ce ovih par dana da promeni situaciju. Pa samo ovi snimci ispracaja Guardije Civil (nesto kao zandarmerija) iz mesta koja su vise od 1000km udaljena od Barselone mogu dobrano i dugo da se eksploatisu medju nezavisnjacima u Kataloniji. I, da, malo sam soknut od nipodastavajuceg tona madridskih medija, a siguran sam da ni nije ostalo nezamijeceno u CAT.

[Budja]

Lepi ovi mitinzi za jedinstvo Spanije.

 

Uhapsite Pudgemonta

 

Rajoy, cabrón, defiende la nación

 

sa sve najgorom pojavom na desnici Spanije - Esperanza Aguirre.

[Filozof manijak]

Pa ne znam šta se očekivali, da Španjolci mirno sede i skrštenih ruku gledaju kako odlazi Katalonija?

 

edit: naravno, sada se otvaraju vrata da na scenu stupi svakakav desničarsko/frankistički šljam. I ne bi me iznenadilo da španska vlada zažmuri na ovakve pojave.

Edited September 30, 2017 by Filozof manijak

[Lancia]

Pa ne znam šta se očekivali, da Španjolci mirno sede i skrštenih ruku gledaju kako odlazi Katalonija?

Bas ce ti bezmudi mitinzi, gde kojekakvi Pedro ili Juanita nabija svoj unutarstranacki poen glupavim parolama, da pomogne bilo cemu.

[Filozof manijak]

Ne kažem da će pomoći ili sprečiti referendum, već se bojim da se stvaraju okolnosti da svakojaki talog izmili na površinu.

[Kampokei]

A s druge strane, ne cude ovakve reakcije iz ostatka zemlje. Nemam neku konkretnu evidenciju, nego samo jak licni utisak da cela ta katalonska prica ogromnu vecinu ljudi u Spaniji - nervira. Izuzetak bi bili neki obrazovaniji slojevi i deo ljudi koji naginju levo, ali zapravo veliku vecinu i ovaj postojeci stepen autonomije i uopste osecaj posebnosti Katalonije iritira. Mnogi nece to priznati, ali cesto se takvim ljudima "omakne" nesto tipa "a bas je ruzan katalonski jezik". 

[mlatko]

Ne kažem da će pomoći ili sprečiti referendum, već se bojim da se stvaraju okolnosti da svakojaki talog izmili na površinu.

+1

 

ovde je sutra najopasnije da dodje do organizovanih infiltracija nekih grupa koje bi uz malo koordinovanog tw/fb/yt sirenja panike mogla napraviti skoro pa nepopravni haos i stetu Spaniji i njenom narodu.

[Budja]

A s druge strane, ne cude ovakve reakcije iz ostatka zemlje. Nemam neku konkretnu evidenciju, nego samo jak licni utisak da cela ta katalonska prica ogromnu vecinu ljudi u Spaniji - nervira. Izuzetak bi bili neki obrazovaniji slojevi i deo ljudi koji naginju levo, ali zapravo veliku vecinu i ovaj postojeci stepen autonomije i uopste osecaj posebnosti Katalonije iritira. Mnogi nece to priznati, ali cesto se takvim ljudima "omakne" nesto tipa "a bas je ruzan katalonski jezik". 

 

Nerviranje moze i drugacije da se izrazi.

 

Recimo, nerviranje u Jugi pocetkom devedesetih vise lici na ovo spansko nego nerviranje dvehiljaditih oko Crne Gore kada je vise bilo u fazonu "ma nek idu vec jednom".

[marv]

spanija kako krenula sledeci korak ce biti ukidanje autonomije a ostalo je istorija

[vememah]

Škotski separatisti navijaju.
 

Istraživanje spomenuto na naslovnici, a koje objavljuju na svom sajtu na prigodnom .scot domenu ima dva scenarija - prvi je referendum bez odobrenja španskih vlasti, a drugi s njim. U prvom je rezultat 83-16 u korist nezavisnosti uz izlaznost od 62%, a u drugom 66-32 uz izlaznost od 77%.

 

 

Huge upsurge in support for independence is revealed in world exclusive final Catalan poll

 

A SENSATIONAL new poll which The National is publishing on the eve of the Catalan independence referendum shows an upsurge in support for independence that varies dramatically depending on whether or not Spain’s central government boycotts the vote.
 
The telephone poll was carried out over the last three weeks and completed on Thursday, but the results could not be published in Catalonia. They were released to The National yesterday.
 
Two scenarios were put to a sample of nearly 3300 voters: “With the current situation in Catalonia, with Spanish government and main Spanish political parties calling for a boycott of the referendum,” and “a referendum agreed with the Spanish authorities”.
 


 
If the Spanish Government were to boycott the referendum, 62 per cent would turn out to vote, with more than 2.7 million votes for YES, and around 527,000 for NO

With the boycott in place, 62 per cent of voters would turn out, said the poll, with 38 per cent abstaining.

In this scenario, a massive 83 per cent would vote Yes, while 16 per cent would say No. Two percent of responses were null. The total Yes votes would be more than 2.7 million, with 527,000 No voters.

However, the percentage of No voters rises significantly in the second scenario, which would see a total turnout of 77 per cent and 23 per cent abstaining. Of these, 32 per cent would vote No, while two thirds (66 per cent) would vote Yes.
 


 
With no boycott of the referendum by Spanish authorities there would be a rise in turnout of 15 per cent, to a 77 per cent turnout. The YES vote would fall by 17 per cent to 66 per cent, but would still be more than double the NO vote

 

This electoral studies centre survey shows a marked rise in support for independence, regardless of whether Madrid approves or not.

Recent polls have shown indy support amongst Catalans struggling to rise above 50 per cent, with most results around 40-46 per cent. The new poll results could be an indication of dissatisfaction with the strong-arm tactics of Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy to stop the plebiscite.

Jordi Sanchez, president of the Catalan National Congress, welcomed the results and told The National: “This poll confirms there’s a majority of people that want to vote and will vote, and this can’t be stopped by any police or state of emergency.

“The only solution will come through voting, applying the results, and dialogue.” The poll came as an international delegation of parliamentarians arrived to observe the referendum at the invitation of the Public Diplomacy Council of Catalonia (Diplocat).

A total of 33 representatives from 17 countries comprise the delegation, including SNP MPs Joanna Cherry and Douglas Chapman, and Hywel Williams, Plaid Cymru MP and chair of the All Party Parliamentary Group (APPG) on Catalonia.

Diplocat said some of the group have expressed concern about the violation of civil rights Catalonia, and have said they wanted the vote to take place without any problems.

The party met Catalan ministers yesterday, along with civic society organisations.

Today they are expected to meet representatives from across Spain’s political spectrum.

The Catalan Government, meanwhile, has unveiled some of the logistics it hopes will allow tomorrow’s vote to go ahead.

Its spokesman said yesterday that 5.3 million people will be called to vote at 2,315 polling stations – with more than 6,000 polling places – throughout Catalonia.

He added that the referendum would be supervised by over 7,200 people from among more than 50,000 who responded to a government call for volunteers last month.

Oriol Junqueras, Catalonia’s vice-president, said if Spanish police prevented polling stations from opening, people called to vote at those sites would still be able to vote, although he did not disclose how, or where.

Clara Ponsati, the St Andrews University professor on secondment as Catalan Education Minister, told the heads of schools being used as polling stations she was relieving them from responsibility for their sites until after the vote.

http://www.thenational.scot/news/15567874.Huge_upsurge_in_support_for_independence_is_revealed_in_world_exclusive_final_Catalan_poll/?ref=twtrec

 

 

Edited September 30, 2017 by vememah

[MancMellow]

To bi značio 51,3% stanovništva Katalonije za nezavisnost. 

 

Ne ide se sa tim u ovakav belaj. 

[marv]

u sto maraka da je eraser protiv referenduma i nezavisnosti :D

[Eraserhead]

u sto maraka da je eraser protiv referenduma i nezavisnosti :D

Ja mislim da narodi kao Katalonci (ili Kurdi) treba da imaju pravo na nezavisnost ukoliko to zele. Takodje mislim da narodi koji vec imaju drzavu, evo recimo Albanci, ne treba da imaju i rezervnu za kriminalne radnje (poput Kosova). Eto kad vec pitas.

 

Mada najjaci utisak ovde je glupost s kojom Spanija reagujena ovu krizu.

Edited September 30, 2017 by Eraserhead

[marv]

Ja mislim da narodi kao Katalonci (ili Kurdi) treba da imaju pravo na nezavisnost ukoliko to zele. Takodje mislim da narodi koji vec imaju drzavu, evo recimo Albanci, ne treba da imaju i rezervnu za kriminalne radnje (poput Kosova). Eto kad vec pitas.

 

Mada najjaci utisak ovde je glupost s kojom Spanija reagujena ovu krizu.

 

mislio sam da pratis "pacova" na tviteru :(

 

 

 

 

Ja mislim da narodi kao Katalonci (ili Kurdi) treba da imaju pravo na nezavisnost ukoliko to zele. Takodje mislim da narodi koji vec imaju drzavu, evo recimo Albanci, ne treba da imaju i rezervnu za kriminalne radnje (poput Kosova). Eto kad vec pitas.

 

Mada najjaci utisak ovde je glupost s kojom Spanija reagujena ovu krizu.

nego, jesi li ti siguran da nisi glasao za trampa?

[hazard]

http://www.politico.eu/article/catalonia-referendum-independence-albert-rivera-anything-can-happen/

 

 

Spain’s Albert Rivera: ‘Anything can happen’ in Catalonia

‘Nationalism is generating a divide between good Catalans … and those of us who want to be Spanish and European.’

By DIEGO TORRES 9/30/17, 12:58 PM CET Updated 9/30/17, 7:43 PM CET

 

MADRID — One of the worst mistakes by Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy’s Cabinet has been to underestimate how far Catalan separatist leaders are prepared to go for the sake of independence, warns Albert Rivera, the Catalan leader of the liberal Ciudadanos party.

 

“I believe Rajoy didn’t manage to capture how grave [the situation] was and how much populism was growing” in Catalonia, Rivera — whose party is against secession — told POLITICO in the run-up to the independence referendum set to take place Sunday, which has been deemed illegal by Madrid.

 

“We need to acknowledge that the separatists … have been doing what they said they would do,” Rivera said. “The [central] government said they wouldn’t call the referendum, and they called it.”

 

The Ciudadanos leader, who calls the separatist leaders “pyromaniacs” and “putschists,” warned that Spain is undergoing a crisis that threatens the rule of law.

 

“Anything can happen,” Rivera said.

 

The regional government led by Carles Puigdemont has called on Catalans to take to the streets and cast their ballots on Sunday to decide whether they want to break away from Spain. In response, the Spanish courts have ordered national and regional police to seal off polling stations to prevent the vote. The central government has deployed thousands of police in the region in anticipation of potential unrest.

 

“If you decide to jump off the cliff, of course, you will feel the blow” — Albert Rivera

 

Rivera argued that the actions taken by the judiciary to prevent the vote — including criminal charges against dozens of Catalan officials — are reasonable given the circumstances. 

 

“I don’t think anyone in the Catalan government can be surprised when a president that says that he doesn’t respect judicial decisions is criminally prosecuted,” he said.

 

“If you decide to jump off the cliff, of course, you will feel the blow,” Rivera said. “And in this case, the blow is the penal code, the justice [system], the rule of law.”

 

Puigdemont and his allies disagree, denouncing a “totalitarian” crackdown by the Spanish state.

 

Rivera’s Ciudadanos, the Socialists and Rajoy’s Popular Party — which make up three-quarters of the Spanish Congress — disagree on who is to blame for the current crisis and how to tackle the Catalan question. But they all back the judiciary’s efforts to abort what Rivera described as “a process of radicalization outside the law.” 

 

Spain’s 1978 constitution — which was ratified by an overwhelming majority of Catalans — establishes the principle of the united sovereignty of the Spanish people. A large majority in the national parliament opposes constitutional change to endorse the right of self-determination for Catalonia — or any other region.

 

‘Good and bad Catalans’

 

“I frankly don’t think it is a good idea to decide every four years if we’re going to dissolve our country,” Rivera said.

 

Spain is trapped in a difficult dilemma, said Pablo Simón, a politics professor at Carlos III University in Madrid. 

 

Madrid is seeking to reestablish “the rule of law in Catalonia,” where the government has decided “to selectively break the Spanish law.” But the stricter it applies the rule of law, the more it risks inflaming existing tensions — and the more difficult a political solution is likely to become.

 

These days, few politicians dare claim to know what will happen in Spain in the days and weeks ahead.

 

“The million dollar question right now,” Rivera said, is whether Puigdemont and his allies “will go ahead with their promise” of a unilateral declaration of independence.

 

“I hope they don’t, because, if they do, this will become an even bigger disaster, he said. It would force the central government to take control over the Catalan executive, and “Puigdemont would have de facto destroyed Catalan autonomy,” he said. 

 

Rivera, who founded Ciudadanos as a regional party in Catalonia before it went national in 2015, said he spent years in the region’s chamber fighting nationalist lawmakers who accused Spain of stealing Catalan money and resources.

 

When the economic and financial crisis hit the country in 2007 — pushing the unemployment rate to a peak of 27 percent — Catalan nationalists saw an opportunity “to break up Spain,” Rivera argued.

 

In the past decade, support for independence in Catalonia grew from around 15 percent to around 41 percent today, according to the Catalan government-funded Center d’Estudis d’Opinió.

 

As a Catalan advocating for Spanish unity, Rivera has become the target of attacks from independence supporters. In 2007, two members of the youth division of the Catalan Republic Left — one of the ruling parties in the current regional government — sent Rivera a menacing letter at his home accompanied by a photograph of him with a real bullet pushed through the paper. They were later thrown out of the party.

 

This month, a takeaway food shop in Granollers owned by Rivera’s mother and aunt was plastered with graffiti that read: “Ciudadanos, this is neither your land nor your struggle.”

 

“Nationalism is generating a divide between good Catalans, who are those who support secession; and bad ones or enemies … who are those of us who want to remain Spanish and European,” said Rivera.