Толстый и тонкий

[mackenzie]

Bilo bi dobro da se oformi Novičok Verifikaciona Misija, po mogućnosti sa zubarskim stručnjacima iz Finske.

[namenski]

8 minutes ago, mackenzie said:

Bilo bi dobro da se oformi Novičok Verifikaciona Misija, po mogućnosti sa zubarskim stručnjacima iz Finske.

Shvatam, cenim i postujem da nema foruma bez saljenja^tm, ali ako je na moj racun, buduci da sam pominjao finsku, zubarsku naravno, laboratoriju, onako tek reda radi, pomenuta laboratorija je od strane Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, OPCH, ovlascena i opremljena upravo za rad sa supstancama o kojima je rec.

Cudno da je niko, barem ne da sam ja ovde video, nije pomenuo ili je se setio kao najmerodavnije i najpriznatije po pitanjima delovanja, identifikacije, itd, itd, bojnih otrova, a na sva laboratisanja^tm o kojima smo ovde slusali.

Obaska sto se niko nije setio ni uzbekistanskog pogona sa sve poligonom za probe - ako cemo vec da se zajebavamo - za proizvodnju Новичок-а који је 2000. godine zatvoren, a zalihe unistene, doduse insistiranjem, finansiranjem i pod nadzorom USA osoblja...

Ne moras da se trudis: CIA, snajka, CIA... 

Ili cinjenice da su septembra 2017. sve^tm zalihe supstance o kojoj je rec unistene i to pod kontrolom pomenute OPCH, dok je proizvodnja obustavljena jos 90-ih, a uzorci, upravo rad ispitivanja delovanja i eventualne identifikacije lagerovani upravo u helsinskoj zubarskoj laboratoriji...

[duma]

8 hours ago, vememah said:

 

Pa ako je ova varijanta otrova optimizovana za uzimanje oralnim putem, nije nešto mnogo verovatno da će neko nastradati držeći flašicu rukavicama, a zatim u zavezanoj kesi.

 

Kako li su oni znali kako je optimizovana ova varijanta?  Javio im FSB? 

Zanimljivo je da je u hotelu bio pre par sati, a baš u avionu otrov počeo da deluje. Nikom ne pada na pamet da je u avionu i otrovan?

Da sam nanjegovom mestu promenio bih društvo.

[namenski]

Inace, postoji jos iz sovjetskog doba, neka sredina 80-ih dobro dokumentovan slucaj trovanja supstancom o kojoj je rec, tek da se pomene: laborant jedne civilne ustanove/instituta je zbog kvara na opremi bio izlozen delovanju poprilicne kolicine.

Poslat je kuci, lecen u civilnim ustanovama, sve u svemu najebo, zdravstveni problemi se navracali, ostecena jetra, napadi epilepsije, depresije, sto je sve trajalo danima i danima, sve dok se nisu pojavili sluzbenici ondasnjeg KGB-a, rekli lekarima da pisu da se radi o trovanju hranom, da je covek naprosto pojeo nesto kvarno, propisali  terapiju standardnim antidotom atropinom i coveka otpratili kuci.

Trajno unistenog zdravlja, sa sve penzijom.

Covek je poziveo jos koju godinu.

 

Rezultati zvanicnih, vojnih ispitivanja se naravno ne znaju, ali ako je ovaj slucaj za koji se zna primer delovanja supstance o kojoj je rec bice da se ipak postavlja pitanje zasto sluzba koja je na glasu glede svoje efikasnosti koristi sredstvo ciji su efekti u najmanju ruku problematicni kada je eliminisanje politickih i ostalih protivnika u pitanju...

[vememah]

2 hours ago, namenski said:

Иван Кивалиди, иначе банкар, Росбизнесбанка и златне руске 90-те, који се рачуна у прве доказане жртве Новичок-а

 

Kako sad i to da je Kivelidi žrtva novičoka nije zapadna izmišljotina, kad je tek pre dve godine, 23 godine posle ubistva, u prozapadnoj Novoj gazeti prvi put objavljeno da je otrov iz porodice novičoka u pitanju. Sudski spisi su pod oznakom "poverljivo", a novičok kao pojam u tom slučaju nikad nije spomenut javno ni od jednog aktera.

 

2 hours ago, namenski said:

На страну што су у случају поменутог Кивалидија отров купљен, 2 ампуле по беше 5 mg, US$ 5,000 свака, украдене из Государственный институт технологии органического синтеза познатији као ГИТОС, иначе у банкроту од неке 2010...

 

Dosta si to pojednostavio, lično ga je sintetisao i izneo iz laboratorije profesor Leonid Rink, ruski uglednik^TM koji se redovno pojavljuje u režimskim medijima kad treba braniti trovača i ubicu Putina u vezi s novičokom, kako posle slučaja Skripalj, tako i sada posle slučaja Navaljni, a koji je za učešće u slučaju Kivelidi osuđen na svega godinu dana uslovno (link) iako se protiv njega vodilo više procesa.

 

 

Evo šta on kaže o supstanci^TM.

 

Quote

According to Professor Leonid Rink, Doctor of Chemical Sciences, in the Soviet Union and Russia there was no "Novichok" (Beginner) program of chemical weapons development. Until early 1990s Rink worked as a leading researcher and head of the laboratory at the State Research Institute of Organic Chemistry and Technology, in Soviet times he was engaged in development of chemical weapons. According to him, after any program was completed, it was handed over to the military, and they already gave it a name. Among others there was a registry with the word "Novichok". There were different combat systems with different formulas and different mechanisms of action, such as "Novichok-1", "Novichok-2", "Novichok-3". Leonid Rink reported that there was no such separate substance "Novichok" and no development project with such name. According to him, it is rather a coding and registration system.

https://ria.ru/20200902/novichok-1576651147.html (translation by Deepl)

 

 

 

[vememah]

2 hours ago, namenski said:

Inace, postoji jos iz sovjetskog doba, neka sredina 80-ih dobro dokumentovan slucaj trovanja supstancom o kojoj je rec, tek da se pomene: laborant jedne civilne ustanove/instituta je zbog kvara na opremi bio izlozen delovanju poprilicne kolicine.

Poslat je kuci, lecen u civilnim ustanovama, sve u svemu najebo, zdravstveni problemi se navracali, ostecena jetra, napadi epilepsije, depresije, sto je sve trajalo danima i danima, sve dok se nisu pojavili sluzbenici ondasnjeg KGB-a, rekli lekarima da pisu da se radi o trovanju hranom, da je covek naprosto pojeo nesto kvarno, propisali  terapiju standardnim antidotom atropinom i coveka otpratili kuci.

Trajno unistenog zdravlja, sa sve penzijom.

Covek je poziveo jos koju godinu.

 

Da, dobro je dokumentovan pošto je taj čovek, Andrej Železnjakov, 1992. godine, nakon petogodišnjeg mučenja, a manje od godinu dana pre sopstvene smrti opet prozapadnom nedeljniku Novoje vremja otkrivajući državnu tajnu sam ispričao da se 1987. otrovao onim na čemu je radio. U suprotnom ne bi ni znao za njega.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/22/andrei-zheleznyakov-soviet-scientist-poisoned-novichok

[namenski]

34 minutes ago, vememah said:

Kako sad i to da je Kivelidi žrtva novičoka nije zapadna izmišljotina, kad je tek pre dve godine, 23 godine posle ubistva, u prozapadnoj Novoj gazeti prvi put objavljeno da je otrov iz porodice novičoka u pitanju. Sudski spisi su pod oznakom "poverljivo", a novičok kao pojam u tom slučaju nikad nije spomenut javno ni od jednog aktera.

Ne znam koji su ti izvori, stvar je po ruski^tm iskomplikovana, ali trovanje Kivelidija se razvlacilo po raznim aj da kazem medijima/izvorima prakticno od samog dogadjaja; supstanca nije tada jos uvek nosila danas popularno ime, ali njena upotreba/trovanje kao nacin izvrsenja nije osporavana ni sa jedne strane.

I ni jednom recju nisam pomenuo zapadne izmisljotine, ne samo u postu koji citiras nego inace: radi se o manipulaciji polupoznatom i polupotvrdjenom materijalu, cesto i glasinama koje su, a to je mislim nesporno, cesto tendenciozne u smislu u kome ih je pomenuo Redoran.

Ni manje, ni vise.

34 minutes ago, vememah said:

Dosta si to pojednostavio, lično ga je sintetisao i izneo iz laboratorije profesor Leonid Rink, ruski uglednik^TM koji se redovno pojavljuje u režimskim medijima kad treba braniti trovača i ubicu Putina u vezi s novičokom, kako posle slučaja Skripalj, tako i sada posle slučaja Navaljni, a koji je za učešće u slučaju Kivelidi osuđen na svega godinu dana uslovno (link) iako se protiv njega vodilo više procesa.

Jesam pojednostavio, naravno, pisao sam iz glave, ali Rink je samo jedna od varijanti, barem sudeci po mnostvu cesto kontradiktornih tvrdnji, cak i u ruskoj stampi/medijima: cak i da je njegova uloga bila takva kao sto ti kazes, ipak mu je sudjeno i presudjeno: kao nesporno pojavljuje se cinjenica da je supstanca ilegalno^tm izneta i prodata.

Za pare.

Na stranu sto, sva je prilika, nema sanse da jedan covek 'licno sintetizuje': ko god bio, mogao je samo da se posluzi iz negde lagerovane kolicine: sintetizacija, odnosno proizvodnja, pogotovo u mnostvu oblika koje i sam pominjes, nemoguca je bez ucesca vise ljudi i podrazumeva itekakvu tehnolosku organizaciju i postupak.

I ponovo, da ne bude zabune: ni jedna moja tvrdnja nije kategoricna - jednostavno sam samo nabrojao neke pojedinosti zarad potkreplivanja teze da stvari nisu jednostavne u meri u kojoj se to plasira i da itekako ima razloga za skepsu u prilazu podacima/informacijama iz bilo kog izvora, zapadnog ili ruskog.

I, kao licni stav: mislim da politizacija metodom 'trovac i ubica Putin' ne vodi nigde osim u besmisleno nadgornjavanje, ubicometriju.

Tom metodom^tm je svaki, recimo, americki predsednik koji naredi fizicku eliminaciju nekog pojedinca, pa bio to i sam Osama, bez sudskog postupka, takodje ubica.

A to ne vodi nigde, osim u besmisleno svrstavanje na ovu ili onu stranu i etiketiranje.

 

Evo i iz zadnjeg citata (na engleskom) - valjda se na njega odnosi link koji si naveo, ispostavlja se da se u slucaju Новичок-а radi o citavoj porodici bojnih otrova koji mogu da izazovu smrtni ishod, stetne posledice po organizam, itd, itd (citao sam ruski tekst)...

 

Da ne idem u analizu^tm teksta (ruskog) koji si linkovao, ostaje pitanje zasto jedna sluzba^tm koristi sredstvo koje je pouzdano nepouzdano, koje se lako otkriva, koje je blamira i koje je po drzavne interese Rusije krajnje stetno...

Poruka, javasluk, pokusaji sluzbi ili delova sluzbi da diskredituju Putina, sto mi bas ne deluje verovatno s obzirom na ponavljanje obrasca blamiranja...

[3opge]

i gle cuda, nijedan od ovih izlozenih tom otrovu, slicnom Novichoku, nije pao na mestu i umro, nego su se dugo patili.

toliko o ovde omiljenom, ironicnom narativu da traljavi FSB ne zna ljudski ni da otruje stoga mora biti da je CIA.

[mlatko]

i gle cuda, nijedan od ovih izlozenih tom otrovu, slicnom Novichoku, nije pao na mestu i umro, nego su se dugo patili.
toliko o ovde omiljenom, ironicnom narativu da traljavi FSB ne zna ljudski ni da otruje stoga mora biti da je CIA.

a zašto ne bi moglo da je neki plaćenik, poljaci ili rusini?

Inviato dal mio Mi 9 Lite utilizzando Tapatalk

[namenski]

8 minutes ago, vememah said:

Da, dobro je dokumentovan pošto je taj čovek, Andrej Železnjakov, 1992. godine, nakon petogodišnjeg mučenja, a manje od godinu dana pre sopstvene smrti opet prozapadnom nedeljniku Novoje vremja otkrivajući državnu tajnu sam ispričao da se 1987. otrovao onim na čemu je radio. U suprotnom ne bi ni znao za njega.

Ne znam za tebe i Gardijan, ja za Zeljeznjakova znam dobrih 20-ak godina, verovatno i vise, uostalom stvar se vrtela jos 90-ih.

E, sada, zasto se Gardijan svega dosetio tek 2018, a?

Bice da u Redoranovim tvrdnjama ipak ima necega, a?

Ili je od svega najvaznije 'Putin ubica'?

[namenski]

4 minutes ago, 3opge said:

toliko o ovde omiljenom, ironicnom narativu da traljavi FSB ne zna ljudski ni da otruje

Aham.

I izlozi se opstoj sprdnji, bude otkriven u roku od odmah, blamira celu jednu drzavu, pa makar to bila i Rusija, nanese joj stetu, izlozi sankcijama...

[3opge]

1 minute ago, namenski said:

Aham.

I izlozi se opstoj sprdnji, bude otkriven u roku od odmah, blamira celu jednu drzavu, pa makar to bila i Rusija, nanese joj stetu, izlozi sankcijama...

 

Okamova britva, s jedne starne imamo 3 drzave koje su potvrdile novichok plus cinjenicu da ne ubija trenutno, sa druge strane naklapanja i bulaznjenja o ciji i "ma ne bi putinara to tek tako usro".

 

[namenski]

1 minute ago, 3opge said:

 

Okamova britva, s jedne starne imamo 3 drzave koje su potvrdile novichok plus cinjenicu da ne ubija trenutno, sa druge strane naklapanja i bulaznjenja o ciji i "ma ne bi putinara to tek tako usro".

+1, bez zezanja.

 

Ostaje samo da mi/nam objasnis koji interes moze bilo ko da nadje u cinjenici da se koriscenjem otrova koji ne ubija trenutno izlaze blamu, sankcijama, namesta na gomilu voleja....

 

Inace, sposobnost^tm Rusa da useru, pogotovo posle haosa 90-ih ni jednog trenutka nije sporna i tesko da ima veze samo sa Putinom: pocni od, random, potonulog 'Kurska', antarkticke ekspedicije koju su morali da spasavaju Australijanci...

[vememah]

59 minutes ago, mlatko said:

a zašto ne bi moglo da je neki plaćenik, poljaci ili rusini?

 

Malo verovatno, zato što je svaki pogkret Navaljnog bio pod full nadzorom FSB-a kao državnog Putinovog neprijatelja broj 1 u Rusiji toliko da su čak u režimskim medijima objavljivali šta je sve pre trovanja radio u Sibiru.

 

Evo iz FT-ovog članka o praćenju Navaljnog:

Quote

Reports in the Russian press indicated the Kremlin was keeping Mr Navalny’s seemingly routine trip to the cities of Novosibirsk and Tomsk on a very tight leash. An article in pro-Kremlin tabloid Moskovsky Komsomolets on Saturday cited “sources in the security structures” who said they had followed Mr Navalny throughout the trip as he took selfies with followers in the town centre, rented what they termed a “conspiratorial apartment” and took a dip in the Tom river.

 

The leak was apparently intended to show that agents could not have poisoned Mr Navalny, claiming they had failed to detect “any superfluous or suspicious contacts”.

 

But the article nevertheless revealed the apparent scale of the surveillance, as officers cross-checked his followers’ credit cards, a sushi delivery order, hotel bookings and followed him in unmarked cars. [Independent investigative site] Proekt said a senior Kremlin official had shown its reporter Mr Navalny’s test results before they were made public and said they showed he was “definitely not poisoned”.

 

“The amount of resources they spend on it is remarkable,” Mr Zhdanov said. He said that on one occasion he and Mr Navalny met a fellow activist in a Moscow café and realised that “each of us had our own surveillance team”.

 

“It was hilarious because there was an enormous number of people around, it was completely blatant. Seven people were within touching distance and more were sitting outside,” he said.

 

Ceo članak (ovaj deo je na samom kraju):

Spoiler

 

Quote

Alexei Navalny

 

How the Kremlin kept watch on Alexei Navalny

 

Pervasive surveillance operation was carried out against Russian opposition leader before he fell ill

 

Max Seddon in Moscow AUGUST 25 2020

 

As Alexei Navalny, Russia’s most prominent dissident, fought for his life in a Siberian hospital after apparently being poisoned last week, three masked men occupied the chief doctor’s office.

 

Idling under a portrait of President Vladimir Putin pensively strolling through a field of wheat, the men made small talk but refused to say who they were.

 

Their awkward dress and shifty demeanour were all too familiar to Mr Navalny’s family and aides, who quickly recognised them as members of the Russian security services.

 

“It looks really funny — you can tell because they’re these tough-looking, well-built men, and they usually have these manbags,” said Ivan Zhdanov, director of Mr Navalny’s Anti-Corruption Foundation.

 

The pervasive surveillance against Mr Navalny, who was in Siberia making one of his YouTube corruption investigations, indicates how he remains a thorn in the Kremlin’s side after a decade of activism.

 

Mr Navalny, who has been jailed 13 times for organising protests against Mr Putin, complained to the Financial Times in an interview last year that he and his family were followed around the clock by men he claimed were from Russia’s security services.

 

“It’s been going on for quite some time, but I’d be lying if I told you it was routine and we don’t pay attention to it. Some assholes are sitting next to you all the time. But you don’t stop living your life,” he said. “Lots of people’s reaction to that would be to shut down and hide . . . We enjoy our lives as we can.”

 

Aides who accompanied Mr Navalny on the Siberia trip and kept watch at the hospital in Omsk said they had long grown used to being followed by unmarked cars and spotting men trying to hide video cameras.

 

“We know they constantly listen to our phone conversations, we know they put up hidden cameras, we know they take the footage from security cameras everywhere we go,” Mr Zhdanov said. “They interrogated my relatives, everyone I had meetings with — it’s more or less total control.”

 

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told reporters on Monday that surveillance operations were “the prerogative of the secret services” and “cannot and should not be approved” by Mr Putin’s administration.

 

The surveillance appears to date at least as far back as 2017, when Mr Navalny began travelling across Russia in an attempt to challenge Mr Putin for president.

 

That year, Ren-TV, a channel whose parent company is reportedly co-owned by close Putin confidant Yuri Kovalchuk, aired a documentary accusing Mr Navalny of receiving secret cash payments from “fugitive oligarchs”. The film used surveillance videos of Mr Navalny on vacation with his family, intercepted phone calls, text messages, and emails, and trailed his employees in cafés.

 

Dmitry Belousov, a former Ren-TV scriptwriter now seeking asylum in the Netherlands, told the FT he believed the secret services had passed on the footage — known in industry jargon as kompromat, for “compromising materials” — to discredit Mr Navalny and other activists.

 

Mr Belousov said Alexei Malkov, Ren-TV’s chief political producer, had previously bragged to him that a “handler” from the FSB, the successor agency to the KGB, supplied him with surveillance materials for Kremlin-commissioned state TV documentaries.

 

Mr Malkov uploaded the footage to Ren-TV’s servers himself, leaving Mr Belousov to fill in the blanks in the script while reporters chased Mr Navalny’s team on the street for comments. 

 

“He met someone, brought the material, and they were basically the ones making the film,” Mr Belousov said. “Nobody makes those films on their own initiative. Everything is done to order for approval. The Kremlin has a story to tell and the FSB and presidential administration put the show together.”

 

Mr Belousov ultimately quit the channel in disgust after making the next film in the cycle, which included surveillance of several teenage opposition candidates for city councils in provincial Russia.

 

“The FSB is the political police, it’s conducting political surveillance in Russia,” he said. “They find any kompromat, publish it on TV, and then the police start charging these activists with crimes based on nothing.”

 

“We don’t know anything about this. We don't know who these people are,” Mr Peskov told the FT. Ren-TV told independent investigative site Proekt, which first published Mr Belousov’s story, that Mr Malkov did not take instructions from the Kremlin and said its sources “could be all kinds of structures”.

 

Reports in the Russian press indicated the Kremlin was keeping Mr Navalny’s seemingly routine trip to the cities of Novosibirsk and Tomsk on a very tight leash. An article in pro-Kremlin tabloid Moskovsky Komsomolets on Saturday cited “sources in the security structures” who said they had followed Mr Navalny throughout the trip as he took selfies with followers in the town centre, rented what they termed a “conspiratorial apartment” and took a dip in the Tom river.

 

The leak was apparently intended to show that agents could not have poisoned Mr Navalny, claiming they had failed to detect “any superfluous or suspicious contacts”.

 

But the article nevertheless revealed the apparent scale of the surveillance, as officers cross-checked his followers’ credit cards, a sushi delivery order, hotel bookings and followed him in unmarked cars. Proekt said a senior Kremlin official had shown its reporter Mr Navalny’s test results before they were made public and said they showed he was “definitely not poisoned”.

 

“The amount of resources they spend on it is remarkable,” Mr Zhdanov said. He said that on one occasion he and Mr Navalny met a fellow activist in a Moscow café and realised that “each of us had our own surveillance team”.

 

“It was hilarious because there was an enormous number of people around, it was completely blatant. Seven people were within touching distance and more were sitting outside,” he said.

https://www.ft.com/content/d6937ef3-15e1-4326-a41a-1828761a84d5

 

 

Spomenuti članak Moskovskog komsomolca (na ruskom):

https://www.mk.ru/incident/2020/08/21/otslezhen-ves-marshrut-navalnogo-pered-otravleniem-on-kupalsya.html

Edited September 19, 2020 by vememah

[vememah]

1 hour ago, namenski said:

Rink je samo jedna od varijanti

 

Vrlo malo verovatno da je drugačije pošto je ruska državna televizija u svojoj centralnoj emisiji s nedeljnim pregledom vesti (Вести недели) objavila da je upravo on taj (doduše ne imenujući ga)...

 

Quote

Investigators found the scientist who synthesized and sold the poison used to eliminate Kivelidi. This professor received afterwards a year conditionally.

http://old.vesti7.ru/archive/news?id=11594 (translated by Deepl)

 

...a režimski Moskovski komsomolac dobio potvrdu od advokata osuđenog trovača, koji je permutovao ime i patronim.

 

Quote

 

Earlier we also noticed: the chemist who appeared in the Kivelidi case and the expert who recently gave a big interview to RIA "Novosti" have the same last name - Rink. However, in publications of many years ago, the chemist from the Kivelidi case was called Igor Rink, and the expert's name was Leonid. We called the lawyer Boris Kuznetsov, who defended Vladimir Khutsishvili, who was recognized as the murderer of the Kivelidi case, to clarify the name of the chemist. "Igor Leonidovich", the lawyer replied. Obviously, he was let down by his memory.

The publication "Novaya" cites previously unknown materials of the Kivelidi case, including the protocol of the interrogation of the chemist.

This is Leonid Igorevich Rink.

 

https://www.mk.ru/incident/2018/03/14/ob-istorii-otravleniya-predshestvennika-skripalya-kivelidi-rasskazal-advokat.html (translated by Deepl)