Istorija: 2 svetski rat u Jugoslaviji

[PopeЧе]

Ima toga sada i po netu, nije više za internu upotrebu kaste iz udb  ^_^

[reginald]

Nisam znao za ovo o Pisarovini. Evo kratka informacija o tome iz hrvatskih (inace desnih medija) http://vojnapovijest.vecernji.hr/broj-6-vp/demilitarizirana-zona-u-pisarovini-907683

 

Ovdje je jedno sjećanje Borisa Bakrača, zaduženog za pitanja razmjene, gdje se usput spominje uloga Pisarovine http://yugopapir.blogspot.com/2013/07/boris-bakrac-bio-sam-prvi-partizan-u.html

 

Memoari Edmunda Glaise von Horstenauea su objavljeni. Nazalost jos nisam citao, ali trebali bi biti obavezna literatura za bavljenje ovom temom.

[čekmeže]

Još čitam Glezove memoare al uglavnom je to 1 kuknjava za starim vremenima kad je Rijeka bila u Austro Ugarskoj a on kadet  u Bečkom Novom Mestu.

[Prospero]

šta je stejt department znao i mislio stanju u jugoslaviji i jvuo-novj odnosima, iz pera budućeg ambasadora sad u jugoslaviji:

 

Memorandum bу Mr. Cavendish W. Cannon of the Division of European Affairs
[Washington,] Мау 1, 1943.

THE MIHAJLOVIĆ - PARTISAN PROBLEM IN YUGOSLAVIA

 

 

Тhе European Division has tried to examine all accounts from whatever source, of the Мihajlovic-Partisan dispute in Yugoslavia. The situation now appears to bе about as follows :

 

1. Мihajlovic certainly has been conserving his forces, limiting his activity to occasional acts of sabotage which, however, are usually very effective, because planned and executed with professional skill. Не probably has only а few thousand men actually in the field, but could call in perhaps 300,000 when the time comes for а major operation. It is this strategy of delay, with а view to integrating his operations in general United Nations strategy, which is at the root of most of the criticism against him. Не is particularly unpopular with elements everywhere who are urging the "second front."

2. There is no evidence whatever that Мihajlovic has acted in collusion with the Germans. Тhere may have been some minor traffic which may, however, bе а kind of fifth-column work-with the puppet regime (Neditch) in Belgrade. Не has not refuted very satisfactorily the charges of his relations with the ltalians. Не certainly has received some supplies and equipment from them, probably in exchange for prisoners, and has not been fighting against them. That he has actually participated with them in actions against the Partisans appears doubtful.

3. At times his men have certainly fought against the Partisans. His defense is that this was in those regions where the more lawless 
-elements were ravaging the countryside and he acted to "free the peasantry from this scourge." We understand that he has been admonished
against this bу his Government, and it seems to bе а fact that lately there have been no important clashes between Мihajlovic and the Partisans.

 

4. There was undoubtedly great exaggeration of Mihajlovic's achievements, and this propaganda, built up bу the Government in exile for purposes of its own prestige, is partly responsible for the attacks made bу the opponents of that regime. At the same time, it is equally true that the advocates of the Partisans have also been guilty of gross exaggeration.

5. The British have а liaison mission with Mihajlovic. These officers have sometimes quarrelled with him, and we can suppose that their reports have not been entirely objective. Consequently, the British policy has wavered. А few weeks ago the British let us know that they intended to establish liaison also with the Partisans, but as of the end of last week the British Embassy here understood that this project had again been abandoned. British policy is understood to bе still to support Mihajlovic, but to distribute their encouragement to all "patriots". They seem not to have had much if any success in effecting а reconciliation between the two factions.

6. The Soviet authorities still deny any actual help to or leadership of the Partisans. They reaffirm that they do not concern themselves with the internal affairs of other states. Nevertheless we can now accept as probably true the report that they recently revived, bу а communication to the Yugoslav Government in London, the charges they made last August against Mihajlovic.

7. Recent press reports indicate that there may bе basis for the reports brought from London bу Ambassador Fotitch to the effect that Partisan activity is declining. Мr. Fotitch says that the people are rallying to Мihajlovic; it is more reasonable to assume that the campaigns of the Germans, the Croatian Ustachis and, to а lesser degree, the Italians, against the Partisans have been much more effective than last year.

8. The Yugoslav Government under British pressure was supposed to have taken steps to coordinate the two (or more) systems of resistance, thus giving some recognition to the Partisans. We judge from Mr. Fotitch's remarks that this was not done. 

 

9. The Partisan "government" at Bihac seems to have collapsed, if indeed it ever amounted to more than а temporary committee for political planning. At the same time the character of Partisan activity in some regions seems to have shifted to comprise а rather broad national front. Perhaps it never was correct to label the Partisans as "communists" in general, though there is evidence that in the early days some Soviets were set up. Mihajlovic has in his organization а committee for political planning. Not much is known about it. His critics may say that it is to serve as а link between the Government in exile and the people at home. It seems, however, to have been Mihajlovic's own idea, for advice in his military operations and as а counterweight to the political character of much of the Partisans' activity. It has announced no "program".

11. Only small amounts of supplies from the British аre getting through to Мihajlovic. The British still control his communications. In periods of tension between the British Foreign Office аnd the Yugoslav Government the Yugoslavs complain that they are not permitted to communicate directly with Mihajlovic, and suggest that some of their messages, and his in reply, do not get through and others may bе "mutilated" in transmission. This is one of the chief Yugoslav grievances at the present time.

 

FOREIGN RELATIONS, 1 9 4 3 , VOLUME II

 

[Tribun_Populi]

 

Perhaps it never was correct to label the Partisans as "communists" in general, though there is evidence that in the early days some Soviets were set up.

 

Ovo mi je zanimljiv momenat. Na jednoj temi mi je Namenski zamerio što sam odvojio NOVJ od KPJ, no čini mi se da je za svo vreme rata čitav pokret među narodom tj. običnim svetom "reklamiran" upravo na taj način - kao narodnooslobodilačka a ne partijska vojska, s veoma jasnim razlogom.

[Њујоркер]

Kurac je Draza mogao da pozove 300 000 ljudi pod oruzje. Pa to ni partizani nisu mogli do 45te, kad su im se pridruzili i ustase i domobrani i cetnici...

(na poziv Kralja :wink wink:)

[vathra]

Kurac je Draza mogao da pozove 300 000 ljudi pod oruzje. Pa to ni partizani nisu mogli do 45te, kad su im se pridruzili i ustase i domobrani i cetnici...

(na poziv Kralja :wink wink:)

 

Тита је крајем 45-е накупио 800 иљада. Скупио би и Дража 300 хиљада да су га подржали, али на њега нису хтели да се кладе. 

 

Накупило се у ЈА и домобрана и четника, коју годину после рата, после неколико таласа демобилисања неподобних, још је војсци било официра који су били у "непријатељским" формацијама - скоро 2000 је било у домобранима, око 750 у четницима. Био је чак и један бивши љотићевац, покоји из руске царске војске, али усташе су могле да очекују само оно што су и добили.

[vathra]

šta je stejt department znao i mislio stanju u jugoslaviji i jvuo-novj odnosima, iz pera budućeg ambasadora sad u jugoslaviji:

 

Чланак је из маја 1943. До тад није било доказаних случајева колаборације четника са Немцима, то је утврђено тек крајем године. Било је колаборације са Италијанима, што амбасадор дипломатски заобилази.

Такође није било извештаја операција Вајс и Шварц, који су били пресудни да се Британци окрену Титу. Битне ствари су се дешавале пошто је овај извештај направљен.

Edited May 17, 2015 by vathra

[Prospero]

dokument svakako nije nikakva 'istina' (iako nije toliko off the mark) nego predstavlja presek američkog pogleda u jednom trenutku, i nije kao takav dokaz ni za šta.

 

inače, koga interesuje može da čita delove američkih dokumenata o jugoslaviji - 1941, 1942, 1943, 1944 i 1945.

[reginald]

Postoji li interes ovdje za Stepinca? Moze li dobiti svoj topik i gdje bi to moglo biti? Povod je aktualna tema njegove kanonizacije.

[ArleKino]

Postoji li interes ovdje za Stepinca? Moze li dobiti svoj topik i gdje bi to moglo biti? Povod je aktualna tema njegove kanonizacije.

 

Kako bi bilo lijepo da ovo znači ispaljivanje iz topa na Mjesec.

[Прслин]

[Њујоркер]

Idi u kurac...

[čekmeže]

Dan oslobođenja Rume

 

 

[pacey defender]

Šta bi bila najkredibilnija (dostupna) literatura za pitanje motiva za savezničko bombardovanje Beograda?