Kenji Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afNR1clZNYc Link to comment
Krošek Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 drugi referendum oko izlaska je moguc zavisno od toga da li ce eu smisliti odredjenu koherentnu ponudu, a i kroz pregovore se moze nesto dogovoriti i mogucnost implementacije toga bi predstavljala povod za glasanje. nove okolnosti i to. Link to comment
Tribun_Populi Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 Neće CDU dozvoliti dalju federalizaciju, plus je tu nekoliko manjih država koje će blokirati (Finska) takve pokušaje. Sledeće jeseni (2017) su izbori CDU/CSU neće hteti ništa da rizikuju jer im AfD već jede biračko telo (to je nemački eho Tori-UKIP dinamike, a destabilizacioni potencijal fallout-a za EU je x puta veći nego Brexit). Šojbleov "plan za Brexit" već ima ugrađenu blokadu pokušaja EK, Francuske i Italije da gurkaju neke etape fiskalne federalizacije (osiguranje depozita npr) u toku rasprave o Brexitu u narednih godinu-dve, tako da predviđam još više istoga i uopšte guranje i taljiganje ka nekoj tački pucanja. Da li će se do nje doći - ne znam. Znam samo da Švabo n'ume. -_- Od toga i mene stra', a bojim se da će, da bi se do federacije došlo, Švabo opet morati da dobija po pič'ci. Postoje razlicit modeli da se uredi federacija a koji ne podrazumevaju osiguranje depozita i preuzimanje dugova. Mislim tu pre svega na svajcarski model gde je federalizacija jaka spoljnoj politici/odbrani a slaba u domenu budzeta, dugova, itd. Ne postoji opcija u kojoj (evropska) federacija nema zajedničku blagajnu koja izdaje naredbe i kontroliše, a da je funkcionalna. To je konglomerat (sada već) 27 naroda različitog mentaliteta. Tu mora da postoji jak centar za zajedničku kasu i kvit. Link to comment
Prospero Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 drugi referendum oko izlaska je moguc zavisno od toga da li ce eu smisliti odredjenu koherentnu ponudu, a i kroz pregovore se moze nesto dogovoriti i mogucnost implementacije toga bi predstavljala povod za glasanje. nove okolnosti i to. Ponuda je bila na stolu od februara Emergency brake What Cameron wanted: A four-year freeze on in-work benefits for EU citizens working in the UK. Ahead of the summit, David Cameron made a crucial concession that the changes would not apply to EU workers already in Britain, only to new arrivals. This left one problem to solve at the summit: how long Britain could keep special rules in place. The British government wanted to keep the emergency brake in place for 13 years, but the Visegrád group of four central European countries (Poland, Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic) arrived at the summit with a starting bid of five years. What he’s got: The consensus settled on seven years, which matches the time period other western countries had to keep eastern Europeans out of their labour markets. Britain was one of a handful of countries that allowed eastern European workers into its labour market, after the EU enlargement of 2004. The seven-year emergency brake cannot be extended. Child benefits What Cameron wanted: Before the negotiations got serious, Cameron wanted to stop all payments of child benefit going to children living outside the UK, whose parents are working in the UK. Ahead of the summit, the UK relaxed this demand, so child benefit would merely be indexed to the standard of living in the country where the offspring are based. Despite this concession – and the relatively small sums at stake – child benefits caused one of the biggest rows at the summit, as the Visegrád countries opposed other countries taking advantage. What he’s got: Child benefit payments will be indexed to the cost of living for children living outside the UK, under new EU legislation. This will apply to new arrivals to the UK, once legislation has been passed, and to all workers from 1 January 2020. Stronger protection for non-euro v eurozone What Cameron wanted: Safeguards to protect countries outside the eurozone against regulation made by those inside was at the top of prime minister’s wishlist in the Bloomberg speech. Specifically, he wanted any non-eurozone country to be able to stall new regulations for the currency union, by triggering further discussions among EU leaders of the proposals. What he’s got: In a surprising win for Cameron, only one euro ‘out’ will be able to force a debate among EU leaders about ‘problem’ eurozone laws. Other EU leaders agreed to this because neither the UK, nor any other country, would have a veto. The tactic can be used to delay, but not to stop eurozone laws. Ever-closer union What Cameron wanted: a declaration that the treaty motto of “ever closer union among the peoples of Europe” did not apply to the UK. EU leaders had already agreed a special formula of wording in June 2014 that not all member states were on the road to integration, but Cameron wanted something stronger. What he’s got: Much more emphatic language, stressing that the UK is not on the road to deeper integration. “It is recognised that the United Kingdom ... is not committed to further political integration in the European Union ... References to ever-closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom.” građani UK su to odbili, a i to je bilo premnogo, opt-aut do opt-auta, kome to treba. Sada je jedina ponuda Brisela ono što EU27 napiše kao uslove razdruživanja. Za neke igrice tipa "ajd ostanite, evo daćemo vam ovo" postoji tačno "zirou point zirou zirou" šanse, rečima M. Granića. Link to comment
MancMellow Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 Ne sviđa mi se zato što odaje jedan uski fokus na zapadnja društva pa ispada da događanja u njima imaju neku univerzalnu, globalnu simboliku, a nemaju. Globalizacija radi, samo ne kako su mnogi priželjkivali, ali ti nisu sad po nečemu posebni da bi bili glavni/jedini merodavni. pa sad... ^_^ ali slazem se da je morao da napise na sta tacno misli. Link to comment
3opge Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 izbaciti ih sto pre, imaju Rodnija i Del Boja da trguju sa EU. Link to comment
Krošek Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 mogu da u dogovoru sa eu izlaziraju pitanje, problematizuju neku nebitnu stvar i predstave to kao novo! vruce! ponudu eu da bi se stvorio sustinski formalan osnov za nov referendum. pod uslovom da bude raspolozenje masovnog zaljenja. Link to comment
MancMellow Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 Za neke igrice tipa "ajd ostanite, evo daćemo vam ovo" postoji tačno "zirou point zirou zirou" šanse, rečima M. Granića. Za to nema nikakve sanse. Ako bi slucajno hteli novi refrendum morali bi na kolenima u Brisel i da kukaju da im i ove dosadasnje optouts priznaju, a to sve zajedno se nikad nece desiti Link to comment
Prospero Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 drugi referendum oko izlaska je moguc zavisno od toga da li ce eu smisliti odredjenu koherentnu ponudu, a i kroz pregovore se moze nesto dogovoriti i mogucnost implementacije toga bi predstavljala povod za glasanje. nove okolnosti i to. Ponuda je bila na stolu od februara Emergency brake What Cameron wanted: A four-year freeze on in-work benefits for EU citizens working in the UK. Ahead of the summit, David Cameron made a crucial concession that the changes would not apply to EU workers already in Britain, only to new arrivals. This left one problem to solve at the summit: how long Britain could keep special rules in place. The British government wanted to keep the emergency brake in place for 13 years, but the Visegrád group of four central European countries (Poland, Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic) arrived at the summit with a starting bid of five years. What he’s got: The consensus settled on seven years, which matches the time period other western countries had to keep eastern Europeans out of their labour markets. Britain was one of a handful of countries that allowed eastern European workers into its labour market, after the EU enlargement of 2004. The seven-year emergency brake cannot be extended. Child benefits What Cameron wanted: Before the negotiations got serious, Cameron wanted to stop all payments of child benefit going to children living outside the UK, whose parents are working in the UK. Ahead of the summit, the UK relaxed this demand, so child benefit would merely be indexed to the standard of living in the country where the offspring are based. Despite this concession – and the relatively small sums at stake – child benefits caused one of the biggest rows at the summit, as the Visegrád countries opposed other countries taking advantage. What he’s got: Child benefit payments will be indexed to the cost of living for children living outside the UK, under new EU legislation. This will apply to new arrivals to the UK, once legislation has been passed, and to all workers from 1 January 2020. Stronger protection for non-euro v eurozone What Cameron wanted: Safeguards to protect countries outside the eurozone against regulation made by those inside was at the top of prime minister’s wishlist in the Bloomberg speech. Specifically, he wanted any non-eurozone country to be able to stall new regulations for the currency union, by triggering further discussions among EU leaders of the proposals. What he’s got: In a surprising win for Cameron, only one euro ‘out’ will be able to force a debate among EU leaders about ‘problem’ eurozone laws. Other EU leaders agreed to this because neither the UK, nor any other country, would have a veto. The tactic can be used to delay, but not to stop eurozone laws. Ever-closer union What Cameron wanted: a declaration that the treaty motto of “ever closer union among the peoples of Europe” did not apply to the UK. EU leaders had already agreed a special formula of wording in June 2014 that not all member states were on the road to integration, but Cameron wanted something stronger. What he’s got: Much more emphatic language, stressing that the UK is not on the road to deeper integration. “It is recognised that the United Kingdom ... is not committed to further political integration in the European Union ... References to ever-closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom.” građani UK su to odbili, a i to je bilo premnogo, opt-aut do opt-auta, kome to treba. Sada je jedina ponuda Brisela ono što EU27 napiše kao uslove razdruživanja. Za neke igrice tipa "ajd ostanite, evo daćemo vam ovo" postoji tačno "zirou point zirou zirou" šanse, rečima M. Granića. Link to comment
Krošek Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 mislim da bi moglo da se desi, bas tako na kolenima, ali mozda ne bas brzo. sta ako budu izbori i pobedi neko na platformi da ce uciniti sve da zaustavi ili preokrene izlazak? Link to comment
MancMellow Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 mislim da bi moglo da se desi, bas tako na kolenima, ali mozda ne bas brzo. sta ako budu izbori i pobedi neko na platformi da ce uciniti sve da zaustavi ili preokrene izlazak? to sam ja napisao kao opciju jos pre referenduma, ali pod uslovom da rezultat bude prilicno tesnji od onog koji je bio. I dalje mislim da tako nesto nije u domenu ciste fantazije, ali je sansa daj boze 1% Link to comment
Prospero Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 ... Plus analiza Krisa Patena, nekadasnjeg guvernera HK i Rogofa o problemima sa ovakvom populistickom demokratijom bez checks and balances: https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/brexit-political-suicide-by-chris-patten-2016-06 1 komentar na Patenov tekst: JUN 24, 2016U mad bro? As part of the metropolitan elite you no doubt are. But for too long your ignored your countrymen. Now that they have tipped over the apple cart in anger you still don't get it. They didn't do it because they honestly believed it will work out for the best but because they want you to feel what they been feeling? Pain. Countries cannot move forward if the metropolitan elite only move forward. Everyone has to move forward together otherwise the country turns on itself. Next up: USA Ono što je ranije rekao BoJo - žakerija, grab-the-pitchforks movement... a u suštini pitanje za elitu - u kom trenutku i zašto je dozvolila da se akumulira bes koji nije umela da razveje kroz dati politički okvir. Link to comment
Prospero Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 (edited) to sam ja napisao kao opciju jos pre referenduma, ali pod uslovom da rezultat bude prilicno tesnji od onog koji je bio. I dalje mislim da tako nesto nije u domenu ciste fantazije, ali je sansa daj boze 1% Ja bih im ponudio da se vrate, ali da uđu u evro, Šengen, podrže EU armiju, odreknu se UK rebate i prihvate - mmmmm sveee - bez i 1 jedinog opt-auta. Što bi rekao Šulc, "bar neće više biti amiguity-a". Edited June 25, 2016 by Prospero Link to comment
MancMellow Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 1 komentar na Patenov tekst: Ono što je ranije rekao BoJo - žakerija, grab-the-pitchforks movement... a u suštini pitanje za elitu - u kom trenutku i zašto je dozvolila da se akumulira bes koji nije umela da razveje kroz dati politički okvir. Tbf, jednim (velikim) delom je i deo te elite razvijao taj bes potpuno namerno Link to comment
Tribun_Populi Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 Ja bih im ponudio da se vrate, ali da uđu u evro, Šengen, podrže EU armiju, odreknu se UK rebate i prihvate - mmmmm sveee - bez i 1 jedinog opt-auta. Što bi rekao Šulc, "bar neće više biti amiguity-a". +1 Ma koliko ih ne voleo. Samo se bojim da bi, pri ovakvom stanju stvari, pre glasali da budu 52nd gubernija nego to prihvatili. Link to comment
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