BrExit?

[Tribun_Populi]

Zaaašto? Ne sviđa ti se ružno lice demokratije?

[hazard]

Cuj, ja odavno mislim da to sto svaka budala sa 18 godina ima pravo glasa danas donosi vise stete nego koristi. Teoretski, ja sam za kvalifikovano glasacko pravo (i jos kvalifikovanije pravo na kandidovanje), sa jasnim kriterijumima, pa ako ga ispunjava 90-100% populacije, super, ako ga ispunjava samo 10%, jebiga.

 

Kazem teoretski, jer nemam pojma kako bi to moglo da se sprovede u praksi a da bude skroz fer i posteno i transparentno i da bude bolje a ne gore nego sada (sto rece Cercil, democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others).

[Prospero]

Eto, ti i Mark Rute se (praktično) slažete:

 

Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte today (13 June) admitted a referendum called by eurosceptic groups on whether to back closer ties between Ukraine and the EU had been “disastrous” after voters soundly rejected the pact.

 

“I’m totally against referenda, and I’m totally, totally, totally against referenda on multilateral agreements, because it makes no sense as we have seen with the Dutch referendum,” Rutte told a conference of European MPs.

“The referendum led to disastrous results,” he added.

 

 

Ja se s tim ne slažem, rečima Lorda Nelsona "something has to be left to chance"

 

 

Nego:
 

If British voters choose to leave the European Union on 23 June it could be the beginning of the end for the bloc and for western political civilisation, Council President Donald Tusk said.

 

A spokesperson said Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker thought the same.

In an interview with German newspaper Bild, Tusk said a vote for Brexit would provide a major boost to radical anti-European forces who he said would be “drinking champagne”.

 

“Why is it so dangerous? Because no one can foresee what the long-term consequences would be,” Tusk said. “As a historian I fear that Brexit could be the beginning of the destruction of not only the EU but also of western political civilisation in its entirety.”

 

Everyone in the European Union would lose out economically if Britain left, Tusk said.

“Every family knows that a divorce is traumatic for everyone. Everyone in the EU, but especially the Brits themselves, would lose out economically,” he said.

 

Asked to comment if the Commission shares the same fear, spokesperson Mina Andreeva said that Tusk and Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker were meeting often and thinking alike.

 

“President Juncker and President Tusk meet regularly. They will have a working lunch tomorrow (14 June) for example. They discussed the matter [brexit] several times and therefore President Juncker has conveyed exactly the same message in his own words, for example on 12 May in Berlin”, she said.

 

On 12 May Juncker participated  at the 19th International West Deutscher Rundfunk Europaforum “Europe without Europeans?”., where he called the possible Brexit scenario a “catastrophe”.

 

“Brexit would be a catastrophe. […]  If Great Britain decides to leave the European Union, it will create a multitude of problems that the British people do not see because they have not been well informed”, he said, adding “If Brexit unpicks the EU’s jumper, we have to knit a new jumper”.

 

Juncker also regretted that the summit deal clinched during the night of 18-19 March between the UK Prime Minister and the other 27 EU leaders to help Cameron campaign for the Remain camp had been completely absent in the pre-referendum debate.

 

“Nobody is talking about the agreement struck between Cameron and the other 27 national leaders on 18 March, that plays absolutely no role in the debate. We spent weeks working with the Brits to the find possible solutions to their demands, but this deal is nowhere to be seen in the British newspapers or television”, Juncker said.

 

The latest polls show British people are almost evenly split over whether to stay or go.

 

Although he expressed hope that the EU would survive in the event of a Brexit, Tusk said the price would be high.

 

 

 

 

Valjda su političari plaćeni da predviđaju posledice političkog delovanja; ako vam je posao pretežak i intelektualno prezahtevan dajte jebenu ostavku i prestanite da ceo sistem upodobljavate prema svojim skromnim sposobnostima.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Prospero

[hazard]

Ja rekoh da imam nesto protiv velicine glasackog tela, a ne protiv referenduma

[Prospero]

Ne sviđaju ti se pravila igre kad gubiš utakmicu, shocking

[Tribun_Populi]

 a da bude skroz fer i posteno

 

Nikako.

[hazard]

Ja? Sta ja gubim? Rekoh da imam takav stav odavno, a ovo komentarisanje britanskog referenduma je samo trtljanje usput. Kampanja je prejadna, sta god da bude rezultat (leave or remain) tesko ce moci da se kaze da je to jak mandat za bilo sta. Cak i ako se desi ocekivana pobeda za reamin od par %, tesko ce iko moci da kaze ,,alright now, move along there", case closed, debata je zavrsena doneli smo odluku i sada postoji legitimitet da se clanstvo u EU ne isputuje narednih 50 godina. No za to je najvise kriv genije Kameron ipak, koji je ovo sve isplanirao za medalju

[Prospero]

Što bi referendum morao da nešto razreši ili da pruži jasan mandat za neku od dve politike prema EU? Ako i pokaže da je društvo raspolućeno po tom pitanju, npr 52-48 za bilo koju opciju opet je i to legitimna funkcija referenduma, da problem izbaci na površinu i šibne ga u lice eliti, društvu.

[Tribun_Populi]

Apsolutno, a prenebregavanje popular vote-a je em elitističko, em katalizator sranja tj. nasilnih promena. Way too much for me.

[jms_uk]

Meni je najinteresantnije u celoj prici to sto referendum u UK nije zakonski obavezujuci :D

 

The referendum result is not legally binding - Parliament still has to pass the laws that will get Britain out of the 28 nation bloc, starting with the repeal of the 1972 European Communities Act.

The withdrawal agreement would also have to be ratified by Parliament - the House of Lords and/or the Commons could vote against ratification, according to a House of Commons library report.

[Prospero]

Eto vode da razblaži vino.

[Tribun_Populi]

A i to je mrtvo slovo na papiru, vidim da je po Evropi to popularna forma, ni u Holandiji šatro nije bio obavezujući. Usvojena je i kod nas kod promene granica opština i sl.

Ne bih rekao da bi se iko usudio da ne ispoštuje, čak i ovde.

[x500]

Najbolji su demokrstski referendumi koji su uradjeni pod pokroviteljstvom UN-a.

 

Rezultate takvih referenduma niko, ko je demokrata u srcu i dusi, ne dovodi u pitanje, ni referendumski proces, a pogotovo ne rezultate.

 

https://youtu.be/DsZ346-3Eeo

Edited June 13, 2016 by x500

[Prospero]

EU referendum: leave takes six-point lead in Guardian/ICM polls

 

Phone and online polls show support for Brexit growing to 53%, with proportion backing remain campaign falling to 47%

 

 

Support for leaving the EU is now running at 53% in a blow to David Cameron, George Osborne and the Labour party. Photograph: Phil Noble/Reuters

 

Tom Clark

Monday 13 June 2016 17.19 BST

 

Support for leaving the EU is strengthening, with phone and online surveys reporting a six-point lead, according to a pair of Guardian/ICM polls.

Leave now enjoys a 53%-47% advantage once “don’t knows” are excluded, according to research conducted over the weekend, compared with a 52%-48% split reported by ICM a fortnight ago.

The figures will make grim reading for David Cameron, George Osborne and the Labour party. They follow a fortnight in which immigration became the dominant issue in the referendum campaign, with the publication of official figures showing that net migration had risen to a near-record 333,000 in 2015.

Prof John Curtice of Strathclyde University, who analyses available referendum polling data on his website whattheukthinks.org, noted that after the ICM data, the running average “poll of polls” would stand at 52% for leave and 48% for remain, the first time leave has been in such a strong position.

 

“These results are consistent with the generality of numbers over the last couple of weeks, in which there has been some weakening in the remain position,” he said. “It was already plain that this race was far closer than the prime minister intended and he must now be feeling discomfort at the thought that the outcome really could be in doubt.”

 

Throughout the long campaign, internet surveys have pointed to a close race. But the remain camp had been able to take heart from more traditional telephone polls, which have tended to show them enjoying a double-digit lead.

 

That appears to have changed recently. Two weeks ago, ICM reported for the first time that leave had taken the lead in one of its phone polls.

 

Under the surface, the proportion of voters who remain undecided is dwindling, in possible evidence of the hardening of attitudes towards EU membership.

In ICM’s telephone fieldwork in particular, 13% of respondents were indicating uncertainty about how they would vote a fortnight ago, but that figure has now fallen to 6%. Online, 7% say they don’t know, down from 9% two weeks ago.

 

There are also signs that Conservative infighting, which has characterised the referendum campaign, is now hurting the party in the Westminster stakes. The Tories are down two points on the month in the long-running Guardian/ICM telephone poll series, at 34%, only one point ahead of Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour party, which gains one on the month to reach 33%.

 

However, the referendum is not producing a sustained Ukip surge: Nigel Farage’s party sinks by one point from the previous poll, to 14%. The Liberal Democrats climb two to 9% and the Greens also pick up two, reaching 5%. The Scottish National party and Plaid Cymru remain on 4% and 1% respectively. Other minor parties are unchanged at 1%.

 

In its experimental online voting intention series, ICM puts the Conservatives ahead on 34%, Labour on 30%, Ukip on 19%, the Lib Dems on 8%, with the SNP and the Greens both on 4%, and assorted others with 1%.

 

The mood at Westminster has recently turned, especially bleak among Labour MPs concerned that the party’s arguments for remaining in Europe are not connecting with its voters. The latest telephone poll suggests that remain is still the preferred choice of Labour voters, by 58% to 38%.

However, this balance is not sufficiently emphatic to overpower the combination of a slight 49%-47% margin for leave among the Tories, and a crushing 97% to 2% preference for leave among Ukip supporters.

 

Breaking down the population between generations confirms that Eurosceptism sets in with age: among the young, aged 18 to 34, the balance is 56% to 39% for remain, whereas pensioners of 65 and over lean the other way, by 55% to 39%.

 

Voters in professional “AB” grade occupations are strongly in favour of staying in Europe (57%-38%), whereas skilled manual workers (C2s) are plumping for leave by an emphatic 67% to 29% margin.

 

 

ICM Unlimited interviewed a random sample of 1,000 adults by telephone between 10 and 13 June 2016. ICM separately interviewed 2,001 adults aged 18 and over online between 10 and 13 June 2016. In both cases, interviews were conducted across the country and the results have been weighted to the profile of all adults. ICM is a member of the British Polling Council and abides by its rules

[MancMellow]

Cuj, ja odavno mislim da to sto svaka budala sa 18 godina ima pravo glasa danas donosi vise stete nego koristi. Teoretski, ja sam za kvalifikovano glasacko pravo (i jos kvalifikovanije pravo na kandidovanje), sa jasnim kriterijumima, pa ako ga ispunjava 90-100% populacije, super, ako ga ispunjava samo 10%, jebiga.

 

Kazem teoretski, jer nemam pojma kako bi to moglo da se sprovede u praksi a da bude skroz fer i posteno i transparentno i da bude bolje a ne gore nego sada (sto rece Cercil, democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others).

 

Nisi ti to dobro razradio   Imam ja drugara (DSSovac inace) koji je za to da se nikom ne oduzima nikakvo pravo nego da se sa svakim dodatnim stepenom obrazovanja u biracke spiskove  tebi upisuje dodatnih 5 ili 10 (zaboravio sam sad za koji stepen koliko konkretno) glasova sa kojima raspolazes. Mislim da sam pominjao to jednom na forumu. Morao sam da mu odam priznanje za doprinos politickoj misli :D

Edited June 13, 2016 by MancMellow