Istorijat F1

[burekdzija]

25 minutes ago, arheolog1981 said:

Ovo nije tačno, svi su bili kao popišani na postolju, bez šampanjca, bez radovanja.

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Ok ako ja lazem ne laze tv snimak na kome se smeje i mase publici sa podijuma.

 

Posle je godinama objasnjavao tu reakciju kako je mislio da je Sena „samo“ u komi. Nekako ironicno. A Razenbergera ko jebe.

 

Ali nesrecna sudbina dva velika sampiona, neka ostane na tome jedan je za mene bio i ostao najveci ikad a drugi dno, upravo zbog ljudskih kvaliteta, a ne neospornog trkackog umeca.

Edited September 17, 2021 by burekdzija

[goofs]

 

Jbmliga, mahao je kapom, nije sad kao da je sampanjao okolo. Nemam pojma, Imola je bila pre mog vremena, citajuci o tome videh da je zvanicno proglasena Senina smrt tek 2-3 sata nakon trke, iako je bio mrtav na mestu. A po retrospektivi sa wikipedije ta trka deluje ko klanica, filmski rezirano 

 

Bila je ona druga sitacija s pocetka 2000ih, kad je otpali tocak pokupio jednog od redara na stazi i ubio ga na licu mesta. Sumaher je to ispratio sa suzama na konferenciji za stampu.

[zorglub]

10 hours ago, Radoye said:

Razlika izmedju Sene i Sumahera je to da je Sena pizdarije pravio uglavnom prema Prostu,

 

Uglavnom 

 

 

[arheolog1981]

 
Razlika izmedju Sene i Sumahera je to da je Sena pizdarije pravio uglavnom prema Prostu, zato sto je verovao da je FIA na Prostovoj strani (Balestr osim sto je bio predsednik FIA i bivsi pripadnik SS bio je i Prostov zemljak) i onda je na stazi ispravljao krive Drine. Imao je on incidenata i sa drugim vozacima ali samo sa Prostom postoji ocigledna namera dok su ostalo tipicni sto bi se reklo "trkacki incidenti". A takodje je imao i momenata kad je trcao u pomoc kolegama na stazi koji su doziveli udes a redari jos nisu stigli na lice mesta. Kod Sumahera taj ubilacki instinkt je naprosto bio konstantno ukljucen i nije bilo bitno ko je ispred njega na stazi uvek je bilo ili ces mi se skloniti ili ces poginuti, nije mu trebao nikakav dublji razlog za prljave poteze i izgurivanje sa staze od cinjenice da si mu se nasao na putu.

Inace ko Prosta smatra za vozaca saniteta, taksija, ubera ili vec cega je 1 nemac pojma[emoji769]. Prost je u mladosti vazio za izuzetno brzog vozaca ali ko spaljuje motore, no 1984. kad je vec bio vidjen za titulu pa mu je Lauda maznuo za pola poena mu je otvorila oci. On je puno naucio od Laude sto se tice tehnike voznje a jos vise pristupa trkanju - pobediti vozeci najsporije moguce da se sacuva oprema. A koliko je stvarno bio dobar videlo se 1986. kada je uzeo titulu pored superiornih Vilijamsa usput potpuno demontirao timskog kolegu Kekea cija reputacija je bila slicna Vilnevovoj (caleta), jedan od najbrzih sa izuzetnom kontrolom bolida ali pomalo sirov i preagresivan. Keke je pored Prosta izgledao kao pocetnik i karijera mu je potpuno ubijena nakon toga.

Balestr je u dubokoj starosti priznao da je 1989. godine doneo odluku u korist Prosta da bi pogurao zemljaka, tako da je Sena bio u pravu sve vreme.
Kad smo kod nacista, naslednik Balestrin Max Mosley je bio nacističko govedo takođe. Sa sve tematskim orgijama simulacije logora, sin raging britanskih fašista, sam učestvovao u aktivnostima očeve desničarske stranke kao i u protestima protiv imigracije ljudi sa Kariba itd. Neka napreduje dete, pokajalo se... šljam bira šljam nemam drugog objašnjenja.

Kad smo kod Šumahera, nisam ga ni malo voleo kao vozača, navijao sam i za Hila i za Hakinena i sećam se da sam ispadanje Hila kad ga je Šumaher udario na stazi baš teško podneo. Bio je krajnje prljav vozač, ali po meni najbolji koji je vozio u F1 bez ikakve sumnje. Ono što me je oduševilo kod njega je aktivnost van staze i desetine miliona dolara koje je dao u dobrotvorne svrhe... neko reče u dokumentarcu, Kultard valjda, totalno druga ličnost na stazi i van nje.

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[goofs]

Kad smo kod Kultarda, '98 u Belgiji, biblijski potop, Hakinen rano ispao, Sumaher vozi ko na igrici i po suvom, obilazi sve za ceo krug i dolazi iza Kultarda, ovaj ga malo ne pusta, a onda malo prikoci naglo, dovoljno da se Sumaher spuca u njega i razjebe obojici bolid. 

 

Posle ga jurio u boksu da se bije sa njim, optuzio ga da je "pokusao da ga ubije". Mislim da je Aca Stojanovic tad radio prenos, secam se da je rekao za Mihalja da je "ljut ko papricica", vec tad je poceo da se gubi covek.

[Pegin]

Brake testing, nije u stvari zakočio, samo je skinuo gas i usporio, ovaj natrčao i na tri točka se vratio u box.
Ostalo je istorija.

 

[ducca]

Posle mu u Bernijevom busu kultard rekao "Ti si naleteo na mene jbg, ne ja na tebe" :))) 

 

 

Što se Imole tiče, radovao se pobedi u bolidu i do izlaska na podijum, ali ima scena kad svim trojici Briatore pokisle face kaže da je situacija ozbiljna i da ne bi trebalo da se slavi i prska šampanjcem. Mislim da na kraju toga ipak nije bilo, i mene sećanje možda vara da je skakao ali biće da ipak nije. 

Edited September 17, 2021 by ducca

[ducca]

Tražeći snimak podiuma naleteh na ovu priču o Eriku Comasu kako je izleteo uz boxa u bolidu da na licu mesta vidi šta je sa Sennom koji mu je 2 godine pre toga spasao život na stazi, posle nije bio u stanju da nastavi trku. Još jedna strana priče o tome ko je bio Senna i koliko je značio ljudima.

http://viewingperspectives.blogspot.com/2014/04/imola-at-20-why-did-erik-comas-stop-at.html?m=1

[Radoye]

 

Evo momenat kada vozacima na podijumu u Imoli 1994. javljaju da je Sena nastradao.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Downforce]

 

Interpretacije su razlicite, ali ja ovde vidim samo veliko postovanje prema Senni. 

 

Nisi najveci dok ne pobedis najveceg. A u Sumijevoj glavi kapiram da je Senna bio taj najveci svih vremena...

 

[autsajder]

Hvala na ovoj slici, Radoje. Toliko o tome da se radovao "iako je znao" da je Sena poginuo.

[ducca]

Samo da dam moje tumačanje situacije - na podiumu se nije znalo da je Senna preminuo, niti je to rekao Briatore, rekao je samo da nije dobra situacija. Takodje i sam Schumaher je rekao posle da je saznao da je Senna u komi ali da to ne znači da je mrtav i da koma može biti ustanovljena i preventivno te da nada postoji. Sudbina je nažalost 2 decenije kasnije htela da i on završi u komi jbg. Sećam se i da je kod nas vest da je AS preminuo objavljena u 19h na početku pregleda Serie A sa RTCG, Djurković počeo emisiju sa tom rečenicom. Sad se ježim od te scene, kao juče da je bila.


Inače ove suze na KZŠ, ne znam. Ne mogu da kupim ovo. Nisam ubedjen da je MS uopšte imao emocije prema bilo čemu, osim pobedi. Potpuni emocionalni freak.

[Ivo Petović]

On 17.9.2021. at 0:16, Radoye said:

Razlika izmedju Sene i Sumahera je to da je Sena pizdarije pravio uglavnom prema Prostu, zato sto je verovao da je FIA na Prostovoj strani (Balestr osim sto je bio predsednik FIA i bivsi pripadnik SS bio je i Prostov zemljak) i onda je na stazi ispravljao krive Drine. Imao je on incidenata i sa drugim vozacima ali samo sa Prostom postoji ocigledna namera dok su ostalo tipicni sto bi se reklo "trkacki incidenti". A takodje je imao i momenata kad je trcao u pomoc kolegama na stazi koji su doziveli udes a redari jos nisu stigli na lice mesta. Kod Sumahera taj ubilacki instinkt je naprosto bio konstantno ukljucen i nije bilo bitno ko je ispred njega na stazi uvek je bilo ili ces mi se skloniti ili ces poginuti, nije mu trebao nikakav dublji razlog za prljave poteze i izgurivanje sa staze od cinjenice da si mu se nasao na putu.

Inace ko Prosta smatra za vozaca saniteta, taksija, ubera ili vec cega je 1 nemac pojma™. Prost je u mladosti vazio za izuzetno brzog vozaca ali ko spaljuje motore, no 1984. kad je vec bio vidjen za titulu pa mu je Lauda maznuo za pola poena mu je otvorila oci. On je puno naucio od Laude sto se tice tehnike voznje a jos vise pristupa trkanju - pobediti vozeci najsporije moguce da se sacuva oprema. A koliko je stvarno bio dobar videlo se 1986. kada je uzeo titulu pored superiornih Vilijamsa usput potpuno demontirao timskog kolegu Kekea cija reputacija je bila slicna Vilnevovoj (caleta), jedan od najbrzih sa izuzetnom kontrolom bolida ali pomalo sirov i preagresivan. Keke je pored Prosta izgledao kao pocetnik i karijera mu je potpuno ubijena nakon toga.

 

Dobro, to ima veze i sa činjenicom da je Prost praktično bio jedini pravi Senin konkurent za titulu tokom karijere. 3 godine u Lotusu je bio tu negde, ali se nije borio za titulu, 1991.g. je osvojio dosta rano, poslednje 2 nije mogao protiv Vilijamsa, Šumahera, nažalost, nije dočekao. Treba reći (mada svi to već znaju) da su se Sena i Prost pomirili pred kraj karijere/života, da je prost nosio Senin kovčeg na sahrani, a i inače su, čak i pre pomirenja, sa izuzetno respekta govorili jedan o drugom.

 

btw, kad smo kod Prosta, ne znam da li postoji još neki vozač u istoriji, koji je, poput Prosta, u svojoj karijeri za suvozača imao 5 svetskih prvaka: Sena, Lauda, Mensel, Rozberg, Hil (i sve ih je dobio, tj imao više poena od njih)?

[Ivo Petović]

On 17.9.2021. at 10:27, arheolog1981 said:

Balestr je u dubokoj starosti priznao da je 1989. godine doneo odluku u korist Prosta da bi pogurao zemljaka, tako da je Sena bio u pravu sve vreme.
 

 

To je prilično napumpan narativ, kao da je Balestr doneo titulu Prostu, a oduzeo Seni, a u realnosti, Prost je '89 pre Japana imao 16 poena prednosti (dve trke pre kraja) i mogao je da pusti Senu da ga obidje, stigne drugi i matematički uzme titulu, 1 trku pre kraja. Isto tako, sledeće godine je Sena bio u sličnoj situaciji (albeit samo 9 poena prednosti), kad se namerno zakucao u Prostov Ferari na startu. Suma sumarum, u obe sezone, titula je otišla tamo gde je trebala da ode. Meni je najspornija sezona '88, o okojoj smo već pričali.

 

btw, koliko sam čitao (to je bilo pre mog vremena), Prost je na početku karijere važio za izuzetnog vozača po kiši, ali se sve promenilo 1982.g. kad se bukvalno ispred njega, po kiši, slupao Didije Pironi i okončao karijeru, što je uticalo na Prosta i njegovo upravljanje rizicima u sličnim situacijama. 

 

 

[Jimmy Kowalski]

How Schumacher was snatched from Jordan after his F1 debut

 

Schumacher’s amazing start in F1 with Jordan was rightly celebrated around its 30th anniversary last month, but the contractual moves that led to his rapid swap to Benetton immediately afterwards are perhaps an even more incredible story than how he was parachuted into the Jordan for Spa.

 

After Belgium, team owner Eddie Jordan headed for Japan trying to finalise a deal for free Yamaha engines, which was set up by Bernie Ecclestone, who knew Jordan was in financial trouble.

 

Meanwhile Jordan commercial man Ian Phillips had a call from Schumacher’s manager Willi Weber, who said Jochen Neerpasch from Schumacher’s sportscar employer Mercedes would turn up on the following Monday to sign a contract with Jordan on Schumacher’s behalf.

 

However, Weber warned Phillips to “watch Neerpasch”.

 

Jordan waited all day for Neerpasch to arrive, and when he did so it was with famous driver manager Julian Jakobi from IMG. The initial letter of intent tying Schumacher to Jordan had been changed and, as Jordan put it in his book, “was totally unacceptable”.

 

Eddie said Schumacher’s camp wanted “all manner of things” for the £3million they’d be paying, including sponsorship rights for the entire car.

 

Jordan said it needed to be worked on overnight, but he also heard whispers that Schumacher had been to Benetton for a seat-fitting.

 

Sure enough, the next morning at 10am, he received a one-line fax from Schumacher saying “Dear Eddie, I’m very sorry but I’m not going to be able to drive for your team”.

 

So what had happened? Over the weekend before that Monday meeting at Jordan, Neerpasch had contacted Tom Walkinshaw at Benetton to see if the team would be interested in Schumacher for 1992. Walkinshaw said he thought Schumacher was committed to Jordan, but if that wasn’t the case, he’d be interested.

 

Then on the Monday night Neerpasch called Walkinshaw to say that they had “failed to reach terms” with Jordan, and ask if Benetton would be interested in taking Schumacher immediately.

 

The initial idea was for Schumacher to test the Benetton, and for talks to progress from there.

 

The initial paperwork was drawn up on the Tuesday, in Walkinshaw’s words, “subject to the confirmation that Schumacher was free”.

 

Walkinshaw spoke to Jordan on the Tuesday afternoon, and he described Eddie as “a bit excited”. But he told Eddie to do whatever he had to do in terms of legal action, as Walkinshaw was of the belief that a big corporation like Mercedes wouldn’t tell him Schumacher was contractually available if it wasn’t true.

 

Schumacher tested the Benetton on the Wednesday – across the road from the Jordan factory at Silverstone – the team was happy, and the contract was signed.

 

Walkinshaw said at the following race at Monza that there was a lot of “nonsense” flying around. He added: “The fact is that Schumacher, for whatever reason, had no contract with Jordan. He was a free agent.

 

“How anyone can allow a talent like that to be walking around the paddock I don’t know. That’s their business. When we were informed of that we went about the proper way of securing him.”

 

The reason didn’t Jordan have him tied down? It appears to come down to one word in a letter of intent.

 

This was reported by Motorsport News in the UK back in 2005, when it uncovered the key letter.

 

The letter was dated August 22nd 1991, which was the Thursday before Spa. The original version said:

 

Dear Eddie,

I confirm that if you enter me in the 1991 Belgian Grand Prix I will sign the driver agreement with you prior to Monza in respect of my services in 1991, 1992, 1993 and subject to Mercedes’ first option, 1994. The driver agreement will be substantially in the form of the agreement produced by you with only mutually agreed amendments.

I understand that PP Sauber Ltd will pay you £150,000 per race for 1991.

 

I also understand that you require 3.5 million dollars for both 1992 and 1993 and if I or my backers are unable to find this money you will be entitled to retain my services in those years.

 

Yours sincerely
Michael Schumacher

 

But there were key changes made to this letter. ‘I will sign the driver agreement’ was changed to ‘I will sign a driver agreement’, and the line about it being substantially the original agreement with only mutually agreed changes was crossed out entirely.

 

Speaking to MN in 2005, Weber said without the change of ‘the contract’ to ‘a contract’, Schumacher would have had to stay at Jordan.

 

However in the revised form, it meant Schumacher could sign any agreement he liked with Jordan – and the one Weber gave was that he could agree to visit the factory twice a year, and that would count as ‘a contract’.

 

Jordan said he learned a lot about contracts from that, as the change made was clearly deliberate. And he was gutted to lose Schumacher.

 

He took various attempts at legal action to block the move, but because he didn’t have a valid contract with Schumacher, those attempts all got thrown out.

 

But one man who did have some legal power in all this was the man Benetton was preparing to oust for Schumacher: Roberto Moreno.

 

After Spa, where Moreno had set the fastest lap, Benetton had told him he wouldn’t be retained for 1992. But a week later, it was dropping him immediately.

 

With some advice from Jordan, Moreno managed to get an injunction against Benetton on the eve of the Monza event. Ecclestone, who Jordan says was keen to get Schumacher into a more competitive car to boost F1’s profile in Germany, got everyone together at a hotel in Italy to, in Eddie’s words, “bang some heads together”.

 

Moreno was being offered half a million dollars to drop the injunction, but Jordan was advising him to hold out for a million.

 

Briatore admitted in an appearance on the F1 podcast that Moreno’s contract was the first one he put together in F1, and he said “It was not a good contract. I put a lot of mistakes, and I remember the lawyer of the team told me I needed to re-do the contract, because it wasn’t clear between a chassis and a car.”

 

Flavio says it was then explained to Moreno that his contract only promised him a chassis, but Benetton reserved the right to not give him essentials such as an engine and wheels to make it legally a car.

 

In the early hours of Friday morning, Moreno gave in, accepting the half a million dollars, which was the remaining value of his contract and what Flavio called a “bonus” to go away.

 

The treatment of Moreno went down very badly with the other drivers, particularly the Brazilians.

 

Piquet made his feelings very clear to Briatore, saying Schumacher had done nothing to deserve the drive. According to Briatore, Piquet refused to drive for Benetton at Monza because he’d never seen a team operate like this.

 

Briatore called his bluff. He asked the team to prepare Formula 3000 driver Alex Zanardi for a seat fit, and Zanardi was told to walk past the Benetton motorhome in full overalls.

 

When Piquet asked what was going on, Briatore told him Zanardi was replacing him, because Piquet has refused to drive. And at that point, Piquet backed down.

 

To show how seriously this was being taken by the drivers, this was a rare issue where Piquet and Ayrton Senna were aligned.

 

Briatore said it was the only time he ever fell out with Senna, and Senna spoke at length about the saga over the Monza weekend.

 

“What happened was not correct, and I thought somebody had to say something,” said Senna at the time.

 

“It’s always the people in the top teams, Alain [Prost], [Jean] Alesi, the two Williams drivers, Gerhard [Berger], Nelson, me, who are written about the most. So I feel that unless one of us speaks about it, something like this just goes by, and people get away with it.

 

“From the outside I can say I don’t think it’s a good thing to change drivers in the middle of the season like this, because it starts a precedent, which allows me – or anyone – to say ‘OK, I drive for you’, if someone turns up with a better car, offering better conditions. You can imagine the mess there might be.”

 

Moreno still ended up driving for Jordan that weekend, as part of Eddie’s plan to get him to hold out for as much money as possible was so he could then take a chunk of it from Roberto in exchange for a drive! It proved to be a one-off before he was replaced by Zanardi – who was stressed and perplexed at Monza when he was briefly offered F1 drives by both Jordan and Benetton before ending up with neither.

 

So why did Schumacher’s camp go so cold on Jordan so quickly? Two words: Yamaha engines.

 

Jordan believed that as part of Ecclestone’s scheme to get Schumacher into a better car as quickly as possible, he made Schumacher’s management aware of the Yamaha engine deal Ecclestone had set up for Jordan.

 

Yamaha had just scored its first point in F1 at Spa with Brabham, but the engine was clearly going to be a step backwards from the Cosworth Jordan used in 1991.

 

Speaking to Motorsport News in 2005, Weber confirmed that when they found out Jordan would have Yamaha engines for 1992, “this was not what we really expected”.

That’s what prompted the sudden change of contract wording, which Weber said “saved our lives” because it got Schumacher out of being lumbered with a Yamaha powered car for his first full season in F1.

 

During the Monza weekend, Neerpasch was keen to point out that all Schumacher had in place with Jordan was “an agreement to talk about an agreement”.

 

Briatore has also raised another key advantage he had over Jordan – and that’s that Benetton was willing to pay Schumacher, rather than ask for him to bring budget.

Flavio said on the F1 podcast: “I said to Weber, I pay you, I don’t want the money from the sponsor. Just don’t send the money to Eddie!

 

“Eddie was shouting ‘I have a contract’ but there was no contract. We never took him from Jordan because he didn’t have a contract with Jordan. He did one race.”

 

Interestingly, Jordan said that when it was all kicking off in the hotel in Italy, Ecclestone was orchestrating the whole thing and Briatore was a “puppet” because he was new to F1 and at that time “did not have a clue”.

 

But Briatore counters that, saying that while Ecclestone was pushing for the switch, Benetton was already on the lookout for a young driver because it couldn’t afford Senna or Prost. Schumacher had been recommended by Walkinshaw, who had of course seen what he was capable of as a rival in sportscars.

 

And he was, of course, an inspired choice that launched Benetton from occasional race winner to championship winner within three years.

 

Schumacher and his management’s trepidation about Jordan’s prospects with Yamaha in 1992 were well-founded: an awful year with an unreliable and underpowered engine cost it all the momentum of its glorious debut season and it took a switch to Hart power for 1993 to begin getting it back on course.

Edited September 20, 2021 by Jimmy Kowalski