Egipat - vojska, muslimanska braća, puč

[Gandalf]

Gledao/slusao sam intervju CEO Orascoma Ahmed Abou Doma koji je govorio o nasilju nad Koptima za vreme vlasti MB.

pretpostavljam da je pomenuo da Morsi & co ni u jednom trenutku nisu imali kontrolu nad sudstvom, policijom i sluzbom, a glavni masakr nad Koptima je izvrsila vojska!?

[Zaz_pi]

Osim sto su Maspiro masakr zapoceli islamisti koji su hteli zabrane krst na crkvi. A, onda kada to nisu uspeli srusili su crkvu uz pomoc nacelnika oblasti. Tada su krneule koptske demonstracije.A, da demostracije koje su krenule 2013:

Egyptian Christian funeral ends in violent clashes, killing oneMourners at funeral for four Christians killed on Saturday attacked as they leave cathedral, while police stand byPolice and armed civilians have laid siege to the seat of the Coptic church in Cairo, killing one person and injuring at least 21, as a funeral for four Christians killed in sectarian clashes on Saturday descended into chaos.Thousands of mourners were attacked as they tried to leave Egypt's largest cathedral, forcing them back inside the cathedral precinct and sparking a siege that lasted all afternoon and stretched into the night. Police fired teargas over the cathedral walls and stood by as unknown men armed with birdshot, knives and petrol bombs scaled nearby buildings to attack those inside the church grounds.On Saturday, at least four Christians and one Muslim were killed in sectarian clashes that broke out north of Cairo after children allegedly drew a swastika on Islamic property. On Sunday Christians gathered in Cairo to remember the dead in a service that ended by further escalating sectarian tensions.Witnesses said that riot police and crowds of protesters had been waiting for the mourners as the service ended. One claimed the violence started after members of the funeral march were drawn into an argument with a passing driver."They wanted a taxi driver to stop so that the funeral march could leave, but the taxi driver wouldn't stop," said Samir Adly, a Christian from north-east Cairo, who attended the service. Adly said the mourners were highly charged, and other reports said they had chanted slogans condemning the Islamist president, Mohamed Morsi, who it is felt has not done enough to quell sectarian tensions.In the mayhem, Adly said, it was unclear exactly what happened next, but police showed little restraint in firing teargas, and did nothing to stop those who had come to the cathedral armed for the occasion. "The thugs threw glass and rocks and molotov cocktails that burned trees inside," he said.Some Christians threw rocks and at least one petrol bomb in response. Other Christians were able to make their escape from the cathedral's back entrance, where ambulances were driving in and out all afternoon, their eyes streaming with tears from the gas.Christians form about 10% of Egypt's population, and have lived largely peacefully alongside Muslims for over a millennium. Sectarian tensions have steadily risen over the past four decades, and the prominence of Morsi and his associates in the Muslim Brotherhood has raised tensions further. Egypt's new constitution, drafted mainly by Islamists, is felt to inadequately protect the rights of Christians and other minorities.Anger at the president crosses sectarian boundaries. Outside the cathedral on Sunday, a crowd of Muslims gathered in support of Christians, and chanted anti-Brotherhood slogans. "Christians and Muslims are from one hand," they sang.The violence was also condemned by one of Egypt's most senior Muslim clerics, the presidency, and the political wing of the Muslim Brotherhood.Ahmed al-Tayeb, the chief imam at al-Azhar mosque, an important institution within Sunni Islam, encouraged the government to help "preserve the national character that characterises the Egyptian people, Muslims and Christians," state media reported.The worst sectarian violence occurred in 2011, when the army killed at least 24 Christians in what became known as the "Maspero massacre".

Cujem da je koptskim zenama bas lepo u Egiptu. Ponekada se desi da ih kidnapuju i nasilno prevode i islam.

[Gandalf]

Police and armed civilians...

yep.

[Zaz_pi]

Sigurno su armed civilians liberali.

[Gandalf]

^sada bih ja trebao da objasnjavam ono sto bi trebalo da je ocigledno? nisam jos procitao sve, ali deluje interesantno. ironicno je da jedan od linkovanih predaje na Nazarbajev Univerzitetu -> What Can Research on Coups Tell Us About Egypt?

The Egyptian coup might seem unusual because it was preceded by a popular protest, but in fact these protests regularly precede coups, as Jeremy Pressman rightly noted. Work by me and Aaron Belkin and Evan Schofer shows that popular protests are one of the most consistent predictors of coups.Powell and I show that coups can increase the likelihood of democratization when they overthrow authoritarian regimes, something that seems to be especially true in the post-Cold War era, when elections come sooner after coups according to the findings of Nikolay Marinov and Hein Goemans. But when there is a coup against a democratically elected government, like Morsi’s in Egypt, the scholarly literature is less optimistic: coups that take place against democracies are bad for democracy....Using data from Archigos, Powell and myself, and Shannon et al., I examined 205 leaders who came to power from a coup between 1951 and 2004. When these leaders drew positive support from other states and/or from international organizations (IOs) in the six months following the coup, they stayed in power longer than when they drew mainly negative support. Leaders who came to power via a coup that was supported by the international community lasted over 2 years longer than those who came to power and were condemned by the international community. Leaders who enjoyed state support after seizing power lasted over 3 years longer on average than those who faced a hostile response.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Gandalf

[Gandalf]

heh, u tvitovima sam nasao linkove ka dva teksta koji su, cini mi se, lepo balansirani i informativni:http://www.merip.org/mero/mero071013http://www.nytimes.c...ml?pagewanted=1

vid'o, pristojno odradjeno. diskutabilno je da je nestasica benzina bila rucni rad sluzbe, mada ima dovoljno indicija da je sluzba bila aktivna u stvaranju haosa proteklih meseci.edit: http://baheyya.blogs...oning-coup.html

Egypt’s new military overlords are playing an age-old game, the game of turning the public against the ineluctable bickering, inefficiency, gridlock, and intense conflict that is part and parcel of a free political life, so that a disillusioned, fatigued people will pine for the stability and order that the military then swoops in to provide.The acute but generative political conflict during Morsi’s blink-of-an-eye presidency was constantly amplified and then pathologized by the jealous custodians of the Egyptian state, with their repeated invocations of civil war and mass chaos to frighten people away from the vagaries of self-rule.Like clockwork every few months, state agents facilitated the conditions for collective violence, dispatching provocateurs to demonstrations, removing police from the streets, standing back as communal violence broke out, resisting civilian oversight, and then ominously forecasting an impending breakdown of social order. The message is clear: left to your own devices, you will kill each other.

Edited July 13, 2013 by Gandalf

[savindan]

^pa dobro, etnicka manjina koja se svrsta uz vojnu (& sekularnu, naravno!) diktaturu = dobitna kombinacija.siguran sam da ce im se isplatiti.

Нису толико етничка колико су верска и генетска мањина. Себе с пуним правом доживљавају као Египћане али то је друга прича.Што се војне (и секуларне) диктатуре тиче, она суверено влада том државом већ 60 година, с ким би ти да се сврставају, са популистичким исламистичким покретом који никада реално није био на власти у средини где не само да већина нема политичку свест о демократији већ ни о концепту владавине права и потребе заштите мањина (верских, политичких, полних)?На Блиском истоку је хришћанима најбоље да се држе диктатора и аутократа, какви год они били, јер се тиранија већине готово увек завршава спаљеним хришћанским кућама, срушеним црквама и масакрираним хришћанима. Тако док се не евакуише последњи до Америка(х) и Европе...

[savindan]

http://www.therepubl...istian-Backlash

Мислим да је кључни проблем у делу који ниси цитирао или подвукао:

Egypt's Christian minority, about 10 percent of the population, long shunned politics for fear of reprisals, relying on their church to make their case to those in power. That changed in the revolutionary fervor when autocrat Hosni Mubarak was toppled in 2011, as Christians started to demand a say in the country's direction.But they took it to a new level during Morsi's year in office and the empowerment of his Islamist allies. The new Coptic Christian pope, Tawadros II, enthroned in November, openly criticized the president. He told Christians they were free to actively participate in politics and that the church will not discourage them."The Christians have emerged from under the robes of the clergy and will never go back," said Ezzat Ibrahim, an activist from Minya, a southern province with a large Christian community.It was a risky gamble for a minority that has long felt vulnerable, with its most concentrated communities often living in the same rural areas where the most vehement and vocal Islamists hold sway.During Morsi's year in office, some of his hard-line allies increasingly spoke of Christians as enemies of Islam and warned them to remember they are a minority. When the wave of protests against Morsi began on June 30, Brotherhood media depicted it as dominated by Christians — and to hard-liners, it smacked of Christians rising up against a Muslim ruler.

Проблем је у томе што хришћани све мање ћуте, трпе и што нови нараштаји заборављају где је хришћанима место. Све ће се то, како год окренули и хришћани поступали, завршити Рођеру на сеирлук - Арабија ће пожељет хришћанина.

[Gandalf]

Што се војне (и секуларне) диктатуре тиче, она суверено влада том државом већ 60 година, с ким би ти да се сврставају, са популистичким исламистичким покретом који никада реално није био на власти у средини где не само да већина нема политичку свест о демократији већ ни о концепту владавине права и потребе заштите мањина (верских, политичких, полних)?

ja sam 2000-e glasao za religioznu populisticku bitangu. u drustvu gde velika vecina ni danas nema nikakva koncept bilo cega, a svega par godina pre tih izbora se masovno masturbiralo na klanje mojih saplemenika (spodoba za koju sam glasao je radosno ucestvovala u masovnom ludilu).opet bih glasao na isti nacin. Edited July 18, 2013 by Gandalf

[kim_philby]

ja sam 2000-e glasao za religioznu populisticku bitangu. u drustvu gde velika vecina ni danas nema nikakva koncept bilo cega, a svega par godina pre tih izbora se masovno masturbiralo na klanje mojih saplemenika (spodoba za koju sam glasao je radosno ucestvovala u masovnom ludilu).opet bih glasao na isti nacin.

nemoguce da mislis na srbiju.

[savindan]

ja sam 2000-e glasao za religioznu populisticku bitangu. u drustvu gde velika vecina ni danas nema nikakva koncept bilo cega, a svega par godina pre tih izbora se masovno masturbiralo na klanje mojih saplemenika (spodoba za koju sam glasao je radosno ucestvovala u masovnom ludilu).ne znam za druge, ali ja bih opet glasao isto.

Ако ти верујеш да је положај муслимана у Србији истоветан положају хришћана у Египту, или да између Египта и Србије постоји паралела онда ништа...дрВК је преводио Федералистичке списе и са Чавошким писао Политички плурализам или монизам. Морси с друге стране Јевреје Ционисте назива потомцима свиња и мајмуна:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcnK3Kiw1Eg Edited July 18, 2013 by savindan

[Gandalf]

nemoguce da mislis na srbiju.

naravno da ne, to bi bilo zaista zlobno sa moje strane. Edited July 18, 2013 by Gandalf

[Gandalf]

дрВК је преводио Федералистичке списе и са Чавошким писао Политички плурализам или монизам. Морси с друге стране Јевреје Ционисте назива потомцима свиња и мајмуна:

a moze i ovako: Morsi je doktorirao fiziku u SAD, dok se Kostunica slikao sa kalasem i skrivao ratne zlocince.sto bi prost narod rek'o... isti qrac, drugo pakovanje. Edited July 18, 2013 by Gandalf

[Verterdegete]

Poredjenje Morsija i Kostunice, a narocito potonjeg nazivati religioznim populistom, je veliki, veliki promasaj.

[bradilko]

daj link informaciju a komentari su nepotrebni.mislim ovaj gore iz srednje zemlje il odnekud

Edited July 18, 2013 by bradilko