Izrael, Palestina i arapske zemlje

[Vasilij Zajcev]

Jeste, samo sam ja skeptičan prema ikakvom zauzimanju strana i pozicija u "nekom tamo ratu" i onda gađanja sa tekstovima iz medija dvije suprostavljene strane i/ili medija koje po defaultu nagnju jednoj od suprostavljenih strana.

hm, mislim da one too many puta ovde ogradio od zauzimanja strane u ovom sukobu, a reagujem cinicno samo na pojave nedovoljno informisanih forumasa koji stav crpe sa CNN-a, only. na kraju krajeva, i taj CNN je preneo Gardijanovo saznanje (ja sam samo citirao osnovni izvor, iz postovanja i prof.etike)sve ostalo su cinjenice...Izraelovo krsenje primirja na 4.novembar, beli fosfor, kasetne bombe, skole, civilne zrtve, deca, ignorisanje Rezolucije SB UN i stvaranje humanitarne katastrofe...Srbiju je NATO bombardovao zbog slicne antiteroristicke borbe na Kosovu '98 i '99. i da kazem just for the record - s pravom bombardovao!...just for the record No2 - HAMAS je teroristicka organizacija.just for the record No3 - ovo nije aniteroristicka akcija Edited January 11, 2009 by Vasilij Zajcev

[harper lee]

Srbiju je NATO bombardovao zbog slicne antiteroristicke borbe na Kosovu '98 i '99. i da kazem just for the record - s pravom bombardovao!

Kako da ne. Bas je zbog toga bombardovao. Taman kao sto ce i Izrael da bombarduje zbog iste stvari. Just for the record.

[Vasilij Zajcev]

Kako da ne. Bas je zbog toga bombardovao. Taman kao sto ce i Izrael da bombarduje zbog iste stvari. Just for the record.

naravno da nije. naravno da nece. pisem o formalnim razlozima kad pisem for the record ;)

[harper lee]

naravno da nije. naravno da nece. pisem o formalnim razlozima kad pisem for the record ;)

Jasno. Malo sam zaglupeo troseci ganglije na dokucivanje ko je ciji klon. Interesantna ova vasa rasprava. Sta li je to kod ovog konflikta sto cini da ljudi, neosetno ili osetno ali svakako, skliznu u simpatije za ovu ili onu stranu i, sto je jos vaznije, u potpunu antipatiju prema onome ko ima simpatije za suprotnu stranu? Ne mislim ni na koga posebno vec na ukupnu atmosferu. Izgleda stvarno ima necega u obecanosti te zemlje sto nam provocira taj religijski gen u nasem ukupnom kulturnom damjotipu.

[Vasilij Zajcev]

Malo sam zaglupeo troseci ganglije na dokucivanje ko je ciji klon.

ja sam Arafatov. idu mi na kurac i Izrael i Hamas :D

[ArleKino]

Juče su u Centralnom Dnevniku Senada Hadžifejzovića gostovali Yonathan Shapira i Suleiman Al Khattib (možda sam zajebao neko ime ili prezime). Uglavnom, Yonathan je pilot izraelske vojske i kapetan koji je prije par godina odbio bombardovati neko mjesto zbog šanse da nastradaju palestinski civili. Suleiman je bio član Fataha, vojnik od 12.godine, ubo nekog IDF-ovca i završio u zatvoru na 15 godina. Njih dvojica su dio mirovne inicijative da se zaustavi izraelska agresija na Palestince i uopće smiri stanje, a Yonathan je (da, da, otkrivanje tople vode, ali ipak) dodao i da je svo oružje koje Izrael sad koristi na civilima američko.

[Vasilij Zajcev]

da, pisali smo Nautilus i ja pre par strana o naoruzanju. ceo air force je americki, cesto Pentagon preko njih i testira neke nove sisteme. e sad, braca otkace kasetnu bombu (koja je inace medjunarodno zabranjeno oruzje) u gusto naseljen kvart, sto cak ni ovi asovi ne rade u Avganistanu (posle incidenta na Niskom aerodromu su postali znatno obazriviji)ipak je potpuni hit ove agresije taj beli fosfor. u osnovi se upotrebljava za paljenje i zadimljavanje ali je zabranjen zbog isparenja koja su toksicna. njega ispaljuju haubicama i koriste visinske upaljace (eksplozija je usmerena odozgo na dole, da maksimalizuje efekat). tik iznad krovova...inace, dosadasnji bilans poginulih Palestinaca se polako ali sigurno blizi cifri od 1000 (mozda nekad i saznamo koliko je od njih Hamasovaca ;) ), od toga 270toro dece. aj da zene i starce sad ne istrazujem. dok je u raketnim napadima Hamasa je odpocetka poginulo troje Izraelaca (oh, kako su samo opasne te "rakete"! svaka stota ubije nekoga...) mogao bi bre Hamas da nauci od njih sta je terorizam, posto su oni od Hitlera vrlo dobro ispekli zanat pravljenja Holokausta!

[nautilus]

Vasilije:Mehanizam djelovanja bijelog fosfora je drugaciji. Bijeli fosfor je uzasno nestabilan i zapaljiv na niskim temperaturama. Najveca opasnost je ako eksplodira na zemlji jer tada sve cega se dotakne sprzi a stvara uzasne hemijske opekotine. Visinske eksplozije su opasne samo u slucaju da visina nije dobro odredjena pa ako dio fosfora ne oksidira u potpunosti i dodje do udisaja. Dim je opasan u izuzetno visokim koncentracijama i blizu izvora dima. Na zemlji ne djeluje kao klasicno hemijsko oruzje nego vise kao napalm.

[ArleKino]

mogao bi bre Hamas da nauci od njih sta je terorizam, posto su oni od Hitlera vrlo dobro ispekli zanat pravljenja Holokausta!

Apt Pupil 2?

[Roger Sanchez]

mogao bi bre Hamas da nauci od njih sta je terorizam, posto su oni od Hitlera vrlo dobro ispekli zanat pravljenja Holokausta!

Aj čekaj malo s tom relativizacijom, ono bar dok Izraelcima ne dopizdi pa u Gazu spiče jednog Jerichoa s taktičkom nuklearnom glavom. :fashisto:

[Vasilij Zajcev]

@nautilus: been there, done that. even got the T-shirt. ...pisem laickim jezikom ovde, ljudi ne znaju ni sta je beli fosfor...

Apt Pupil 2?

brrr, ali ne :)

Aj čekaj malo s tom relativizacijom, ono bar dok Izraelcima ne dopizdi pa u Gazu spiče jednog Jerichoa s taktičkom nuklearnom glavom. :fashisto:

polako, kremiranje ide tek kad se napune mrtvacnice. mada cujem da je vec frka. ...a i u bolnicama nestaje lekova zbog blokade, tako da se ocekuje da humanitarna katastrofa i infekcije dotuku ranjene i izbegle. stonokazu, "efikasnije nego Ciklon B" ;) inace, cujem da su Izraelci danas pogodili lokalni biro AP-a. nisu postovali press embargo ili se i iza njih krije Hamasova celija?

[Miralem]

Srbiju je NATO bombardovao zbog slicne antiteroristicke borbe na Kosovu '98 i '99. i da kazem just for the record - s pravom bombardovao!

sa kojim, bre, pravom?

kasetnu bombu (koja je inace medjunarodno zabranjeno oruzje)

nije.

[Vasilij Zajcev]

u jbt, al me kenja posle onog Gardijana...opet moj prvi post na temu:

mislim da svi masite poentu, diskutujuci sta je terorizam, a sta ne, i sta predstavlja adekvatan odgovor ako se utvrdi da jeste. ovde se, bar po meni, radi o necemu drugom - izraelskom slanju poruke svetu u trenutku kada dolazi do promene americke spoljne politike i jacanju ruskog uticaja. i to je na delu "plan B". ..."plan A" je bio bombardovanje Iranskih nuklearnih postrojenja ali to cak ni Busova administracija nije dozvolila zbog visokog rizika od eskalacije. na delu je kompromis koji su napravili, izgovor su Hamasove rakete, a dokaz americka blokada Rezolucije u SB, koja bi zaustavila bombardovanje...

danasnji (osam dana posle Zajceva ) NewYork Times prenosi ekskluzivu:

U.S. Rejected Aid for Israeli Raid on Iranian Nuclear Site function getSharePasskey() { return 'ex=1389416400&en=7075f8f9d5b3da47&ei=5124';} function getShareURL() { return encodeURIComponent('http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/washington/11iran.html'); } function getShareHeadline() { return encodeURIComponent('U.S. Rejected Aid for Israeli Raid on Iranian Nuclear Site'); } function getShareDescription() { return encodeURIComponent('President Bush deflected a request by Israel last year for help in an attack on Iran’s main nuclear site and told the Israelis about new covert action against Iran.'); } function getShareKeywords() { return encodeURIComponent('United States Armament and Defense,Atomic Weapons,Iran,Israel,George W Bush'); } function getShareSection() { return encodeURIComponent('washington'); } function getShareSectionDisplay() { return encodeURIComponent('Washington'); } function getShareSubSection() { return encodeURIComponent(''); } function getShareByline() { return encodeURIComponent('By DAVID E. SANGER'); } function getSharePubdate() { return encodeURIComponent('January 11, 2009'); } WASHINGTON ? President Bush deflected a secret request by Israel last year for specialized bunker-busting bombs it wanted for an attack on Iran?s main nuclear complex and told the Israelis that he had authorized new covert action intended to sabotage Iran?s suspected effort to develop nuclear weapons, according to senior American and foreign officials. White House officials never conclusively determined whether Israel had decided to go ahead with the strike before the United States protested, or whether Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of Israel was trying to goad the White House into more decisive action before Mr. Bush left office. But the Bush administration was particularly alarmed by an Israeli request to fly over Iraq to reach Iran?s major nuclear complex at Natanz, where the country?s only known uranium enrichment plant is located. The White House denied that request outright, American officials said, and the Israelis backed off their plans, at least temporarily. But the tense exchanges also prompted the White House to step up intelligence-sharing with Israel and brief Israeli officials on new American efforts to subtly sabotage Iran?s nuclear infrastructure, a major covert program that Mr. Bush is about to hand off to President-elect Barack Obama.This account of the expanded American covert program and the Bush administration?s efforts to dissuade Israel from an aerial attack on Iran emerged in interviews over the past 15 months with current and former American officials, outside experts, international nuclear inspectors and European and Israeli officials. None would speak on the record because of the great secrecy surrounding the intelligence developed on Iran. Several details of the covert effort have been omitted from this account, at the request of senior United States intelligence and administration officials, to avoid harming continuing operations. The interviews also suggest that while Mr. Bush was extensively briefed on options for an overt American attack on Iran?s facilities, he never instructed the Pentagon to move beyond contingency planning, even during the final year of his presidency, contrary to what some critics have suggested. The interviews also indicate that Mr. Bush was convinced by top administration officials, led by Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates, that any overt attack on Iran would probably prove ineffective, lead to the expulsion of international inspectors and drive Iran?s nuclear effort further out of view. Mr. Bush and his aides also discussed the possibility that an airstrike could ignite a broad Middle East war in which America?s 140,000 troops in Iraq would inevitably become involved. Instead, Mr. Bush embraced more intensive covert operations actions aimed at Iran, the interviews show, having concluded that the sanctions imposed by the United States and its allies were failing to slow the uranium enrichment efforts. Those covert operations, and the question of whether Israel will settle for something less than a conventional attack on Iran, pose immediate and wrenching decisions for Mr. Obama.The covert American program, started in early 2008, includes renewed American efforts to penetrate Iran?s nuclear supply chain abroad, along with new efforts, some of them experimental, to undermine electrical systems, computer systems and other networks on which Iran relies. It is aimed at delaying the day that Iran can produce the weapons-grade fuel and designs it needs to produce a workable nuclear weapon. Knowledge of the program has been closely held, yet inside the Bush administration some officials are skeptical about its chances of success, arguing that past efforts to undermine Iran?s nuclear program have been detected by the Iranians and have only delayed, not derailed, their drive to unlock the secrets of uranium enrichment. Late last year, international inspectors estimated that Iran had 3,800 centrifuges spinning, but American intelligence officials now estimate that the figure is 4,000 to 5,000, enough to produce about one weapon?s worth of uranium every eight months or so. While declining to be specific, one American official dismissed the latest covert operations against Iran as ?science experiments.? One senior intelligence official argued that as Mr. Bush prepared to leave office, the Iranians were already so close to achieving a weapons capacity that they were unlikely to be stopped. Others disagreed, making the point that the Israelis would not have been dissuaded from conducting an attack if they believed that the American effort was unlikely to prove effective. Since his election on Nov. 4, Mr. Obama has been extensively briefed on the American actions in Iran, though his transition aides have refused to comment on the issue. Early in his presidency, Mr. Obama must decide whether the covert actions begun by Mr. Bush are worth the risks of disrupting what he has pledged will be a more active diplomatic effort to engage with Iran. Either course could carry risks for Mr. Obama. An inherited intelligence or military mission that went wrong could backfire, as happened to President Kennedy with the Bay of Pigs operation in Cuba. But a decision to pull back on operations aimed at Iran could leave Mr. Obama vulnerable to charges that he is allowing Iran to speed ahead toward a nuclear capacity, one that could change the contours of power in the Middle East.

[Barrister]

Veoma problematičan potez Izraela:

Israel bans Arab parties from running in upcoming electionsBy The Associated PressThe Central Elections Committee on Monday banned Arab political parties from running in next month's parliamentary elections, drawing accusations of racism by an Arab lawmaker who said he would challenge the decision in the country's Supreme Court.The ruling, made by the body that oversees the elections, reflected the heightened tensions between Israel's Jewish majority and Arab minority caused by Israel's offensive in the Gaza Strip. Israeli Arabs have held a series of demonstrations against the offensive.

IzvorInače predlog za zabranu dao je Avigdor Lieberman,bivši ministar, deklarisani rasista.

[Vasilij Zajcev]

to je ta izraelska demokratija, ne razumemo mi tinego, zar oni nisu roknuli AP danas? odkud vise te vesti, majku mu...