Izrael, Palestina i arapske zemlje

[Gandalf]

Da skratimo. Za sta se ti u stvari zalazes? Za demokratiju ili diktaturu prosvecenih? Ili pak da pravo glasa imaju samo magistri i doktori nauka?

 

Kompletna ta tvoja konstrukcija o tome kako bi trebalo graditi institucije se lomi na kljucnom pitanju: ko ce i kako stvoriti jedine prave i ispravne institucije? Institucije ne padaju sa neba, vec ih stvaraju ljudi.

 

Sto ce reci... Ko pise ustav? Ko odredjuje da li postoji smrtna kazna? Ko odlucuje o pravima manjina? To mora da bude nekakva vlast, ili pak nekakav komitet koji ce biti nekako izabran. Samo nemoj nekakav odgovor u stilu kako bi trebalo izabrati najmudrije koji ce pisati zakone, jer se odmah namece pitanje ko odlucuje ko su ti najmudriji.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Gandalf

[iDemo]

Da skratimo. Za sta se ti u stvari zalazes? Za demokratiju ili diktaturu prosvecenih? Ili pak da pravo glasa imaju samo magistri i doktori nauka?

 

Pretpostavljam da se ovi sa Megatrenda ne broje, ne?

[Roger Sanchez]

Egypt has brokered an agreement on a long-term ceasefire between Israel and Palestinian militants in Gaza, senior Palestinian officials have said.

...

The Palestinians said Israel had agreed to ease its blockade of Gaza to allow in aid supplies and building materials.

To se nije moglo prihvatiti prije razvaljivanja Gaze?

[iDemo]

To se nije moglo prihvatiti prije razvaljivanja Gaze?

Rek'o bi da je kljucni problem svih nas koji ovo gledamo sa strane sto pokusavamo da "isteramo" neku suvislu logiku i nekakav smisao pritom zanemarujuci da tu niti ima logike, niti smisla niti traga nekakvog racionalnog ponashanja na obe strane (ili bolje "na svim stranama")... 

[luba]

slavuj slavujski za mondoweiss

 

 

Rolling in underground tunnels Israel/Palestine

Slavoj Žižek on August 24, 201430 Comments

 



 

A view of a tunnel reportedly dug by Palestinians beneath the border between the Gaza Strip and Israel from 2013. (Photo: DAVID BUIMOVITCH AFP/Getty Images)

If the land was not full of holiness,
Holiness would have been in God and man, not just in it

In Udi Aloni’s movie Forgiveness, one of the Holocaust survivors who is committed to a mental institute built on top of a Palestinian village tells his psychiatrist the following story: An old legend holds that righteous Jews murdered in exile will roll in underground tunnels in order to be forgiven and resurrected on the Mount of Olives when the Messiah comes. (The legend is based on the double-meaning of the Hebrew word mechilot: “underground tunnels” and “forgiveness.”)

 

Then Zionism came along and inverted the symbolic tunnel into a concrete settling (aaliyah) in the land of Israel/Palestine. Although the Zionist movement acted as a secular-national emancipatory/colonialist body, it was founded on the grounds of theological structures — just like its sister movement, Christian colonialism. Thus the saying: despite the fact that secular Israelis don’t believe in God, they still believe that he gave them the holy land. But in parallel to this secular current with its religious subconscious, a theological reversal was taking place in the religious current of the settlers. That is to say: even though the settlers are convinced that God gave them the holy land, they don’t believe in him at all. Only those who emptied God of his holiness could take the secular-Zionist project to a perversion so extreme that all divinity is believed to be in the holy ground (the Holy Land). In that way, the Jews of the land of Israel, religious and secular alike, united in their libidinal passion for the Holy Land. And by filling that land with holiness, they depleted holiness from God and humankind.

 

Today in Gaza, the Israeli military is fighting not only in underground tunnels, but also against the natives of the land. They are fighting not only against Hamas, but also against Palestine itself. They –alongside the West– are fighting against a nation that they have tried to expel from the land for almost 70 years now. They are fighting not only because of these tunnels, but also and precisely to conquer the land within which the tunnels were dug. The refugee camps in Gaza are living evidence of this enormous land robbery, the original sin. Since 1948, there’s been an attempt to divide the Palestinian people, to deprive them of all national consciousness; there’s been an attempt erase their memory, as if memory were the inalienable property of only Judeo-Christian thought. It was assumed that afterwards they could be branded with a new, divided consciousness as Arab-Israelis, Arab-Jerusalemites, fundamentalist Gazans, West-Bankers, and exiled Palestinians without the right of return. But we in the West didn’t anticipate that the Palestinians would still see themselves as one people. And yet, despite the attempt to erase their collective memory, they are reunited again. That’s the real reason for the missing fourth beat [i.e., Israel's refusal to release the fourth and last batch of Palestinian prisoners in March 2014 as guaranteed during US-backed peace talks], and that’s the main reason for the war and the killing. All of the rest — footnotes.

 

And so it was discovered that the more we attempted to expel them from on top of land, the more the Palestinians united to burrow underneath and wrap themselves in it, like a Jewish prayer shawl. While we thought they were digging themselves a grave, they thought they were digging an opening for life. This is the essence of tsumud [Arabic word for the fidelity of Palestinians to their land], and it’s bigger than all of the factions — bigger than Hamas and Fatah, bigger than farmers and urbanites, bigger than secular and religious alike. In the context of tsumud, it doesn’t really matter who you are. Because at the end of the day, you are Palestinian, a child of this land.

Most Palestinians are willing to share the land — many, not any more. But no Palestinian will give up on it. The attempt to expel them from the face of the earth was an attempt to erase them from our consciousness. But they migrated to the belly of the earth and the heart of our consciousness. They are the children of the land, the land where they are buried and resurrected inside of tunnels. Tunnels in which they roam as living-dead refugees, looking for an opening to roll up and reincarnate into their homes and villages.

 

When they are used to smuggle food, tools, or a bride and a groom, the tunnels can function as a manifestation of life. Or, when armed militants emerge from them, they can be conduits for death. They can be tunnels of salvation here on earth, salvation of life as such. Or they may become apocalyptic salvation, salvation by weapons and destruction. We can help to define the future meanings of the tunnels. We can help determine whether through their gates will come the messiah of peace and justice, or the angel of death. They are very heavy on us, the gates of Gaza. Maybe if we open them together to life, the mechilot (underground tunnels) will become mechilot (forgiveness).

 

Signed by Slavoj Žižek and a friend

- See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/rolling-underground-tunnels.html#sthash.T7YUEnXe.dpuf

[x500]

Izleda da su napravili nekakav dogovor u Kairu. Nadam se da ce narednih 5 dana potvrditi taj dogovor. Nekako mi se cini da ako dogovor izdrzi petak posle molitve i Sabat, posle ce sve biti lakse.

 

Pozdrav,

X500

[Gandalf]

Rek'o bi da je kljucni problem svih nas koji ovo gledamo sa strane sto pokusavamo da "isteramo" neku suvislu logiku i nekakav smisao pritom zanemarujuci da tu niti ima logike, niti smisla niti traga nekakvog racionalnog ponashanja na obe strane (ili bolje "na svim stranama")... 

sta je tu neracionalno, sa bilo koje strane? rekao bih da su i Izraelci i Palestinci manje-vise ponasaju onako kako bi se i ocekivalo u datim okolnostima.

[Anduril]

Da skratimo. Za sta se ti u stvari zalazes? Za demokratiju ili diktaturu prosvecenih? Ili pak da pravo glasa imaju samo magistri i doktori nauka?

 

Kompletna ta tvoja konstrukcija o tome kako bi trebalo graditi institucije se lomi na kljucnom pitanju: ko ce i kako stvoriti jedine prave i ispravne institucije? Institucije ne padaju sa neba, vec ih stvaraju ljudi.

 

Sto ce reci... Ko pise ustav? Ko odredjuje da li postoji smrtna kazna? Ko odlucuje o pravima manjina? To mora da bude nekakva vlast, ili pak nekakav komitet koji ce biti nekako izabran. Samo nemoj nekakav odgovor u stilu kako bi trebalo izabrati najmudrije koji ce pisati zakone, jer se odmah namece pitanje ko odlucuje ko su ti najmudriji.

 

Za sta se ja zalazem je u ovom slucaju u potpunosti irelevantno.

 

Sve sto govorim je da za sada nema naznaka da ce taj tvoj islamisticki populizam (kao i socijalistiki ili bilo koji drugi) dovesti do demokratije i prosperiteta. Koaliciju neprosvecene mase i neodgovorne oligarhije je tesko razbiti i institucije im nisu u interesu.

 

Istorijski primeri nas uce da je obrazovanje drustva i razvoj politicke kulture kljucan dok ideoloski populisti upravo ovo vide kao opasnost. A (istorijskih) puteva ima nekoliko do demokratije i prosperiteta samo sto ovaj populisticki nije jedan od njih. Sto se tice najmudrujih, naravno da u okviru svake struke postoje nacini da se utvrdi kvalitet i minimalan konsenzus.

[Gandalf]

Sto se tice najmudrujih, naravno da u okviru svake struke postoje nacini da se utvrdi kvalitet i minimalan konsenzus.

pa to se trazi!

 

ocito da demokratski izbori nisu bas pouzdani, obzirom da na njima glasaju polupismeni i neupuceni u ispravnu politicku filozofiju... kako u Turskoj/Venecueli/bilogde u ustavobranitelje izabrati ljude koji ce biti najmudriji i idealni za postavljene zadatke?

[bergasa19]

To jedino može imati grupa sa vaninstitucionalnom moći, a da bi takva grupa bila uspešna u smislu opšteg dobra mora biti u nekim institucijama. Dakle institucije koje grupi daju vaninstitucionalnu moć.

Edited August 27, 2014 by bergasa19

[iDemo]

sta je tu neracionalno, sa bilo koje strane? rekao bih da su i Izraelci i Palestinci manje-vise ponasaju onako kako bi se i ocekivalo u datim okolnostima.

Da, da, "predictably irrational" sto bi rekao Dan Ariely, a professor of behavioral economics at Duke Universit...

Ludilo, vec prema datim okolnostima...

[Gandalf]

Da, da, "predictably irrational" sto bi rekao Dan Ariely, a professor of behavioral economics at Duke Universit...

mozda sam bio neprecizan. ponasanje aktera je u ovom slucaju sasvim racionalno, imajuci u vidu okolnosti i ciljeve.

[Gandalf]

To jedino može imati grupa sa vaninstitucionalnom moći, a da bi takva grupa bila uspešna u smislu opšteg dobra mora biti u nekim institucijama. Dakle institucije koje grupi daju vaninstitucionalnu moć.

objasni, nije mi bas jasno sta bi ovo trebalo da znaci.

[iDemo]

mozda sam bio neprecizan. ponasanje aktera je u ovom slucaju sasvim racionalno, imajuci u vidu okolnosti i ciljeve.

Mi govorimo isto s tim sto ti izgleda hoces da kazes "logicno" a govoris "racionalno". Ja ne kazem da nije "logicno" al' svakako mislim da nije nimalo "racionalno"... Rat k'o rat.

Sto bi rekli - ima smisla sve dok nije moja kuca na CNNu...

[bergasa19]

objasni, nije mi bas jasno sta bi ovo trebalo da znaci.

Ne mogu objasniti, ali mislim da na tim osnovama treba tražiti rešene. U fazonu nekog ustavnog suda koji mora imati neku vaninstitucialnu snagu koja nije utemeljena na sili.