Bajden - jedno staro i očekivano presidency?

[Tresko]

Da li Bajden zna gde je Avganistan i šta je to Avganistan?

[Gojko & Stojko]

4 hours ago, Tresko said:

Da li Bajden zna gde je Avganistan i šta je to Avganistan?

Kapiram da ti je pitanje neozbiljno i više u smislu "Da li Bajden još uvek zna gde je Avganistan ...?", ali za svaki slučaj, link na tekst Tomasa Fridmana iz Njujork Tajmsa, sa isečcima iz teksta po mom izboru;

 

What Joe Biden and I Saw After the U.S. Invaded Afghanistan

 

Back when we visited in 2002, there was hope that America could help make the country better.

 

I was not surprised that Joe Biden decided to finally pull the plug on the U.S. presence in Afghanistan. Back in 2002 it was reasonable to hope that our invasion there to topple Osama bin Laden and his Taliban allies could be extended to help make that country a more stable, tolerant and decent place for its citizens — and less likely to host jihadist groups. But it was also reasonable to fear from the start that trying to graft a Western political culture onto such a deeply tribalized, male-dominated and Islamic fundamentalist culture like Afghanistan’s was a fool’s errand, especially when you factored in how much neighboring Pakistan never wanted us to succeed because it could wrench Afghanistan from Pakistan’s cultural and geopolitical orbit.

 

Biden was torn between those hopes and fears from the very start. I know because I was with him on his first visit in early January 2002 to postwar Afghanistan. It was just weeks after the major fighting had subsided and the Taliban were evicted from Kabul.

...

 

“But while my heart kept pulling me in one direction, my head, and my eyes, kept encountering things that were deeply troubling. It started when I went along with Biden to meet the Minister of the Interior for the Interim Government, Yunus Qanooni, who is a Tajik. Behind his desk, where a minister should be hanging the picture of his president (Hamid Karzai, an ethnic Pashtun), he had a picture of Ahmed Shah Massoud (an ethnic Tajik), the leader of the Northern Alliance who was assassinated just before September 11.

 

...

 

“I looked around the room at the Special Forces A-teams that were there and could see America’s strength hiding in plain sight. It wasn’t smart missiles or night-fighting equipment. It was the fact that these Special Forces teams each seemed to be made up of a collection of Black, Asian, Hispanic, and white Americans. It is our ability to blend those many into one hard fist that is the real source of our power. This is precisely what Afghans have not been able to do in recent decades, and it has left them weak, divided, and prey to outsiders.”

 

(Reading that particular passage 20 years later I confess that I wonder if we have become more like the Afghans and not the Afghans more like us. Our diversity is only our strength as long as we can forge “out of many — one.” But lately, our parties and politics have become so tribalized it is not clear anymore that we can do that.)

 

...

 

The diary: “Getting out of Afghanistan turned out to be harder than getting in (which I hope will not be a metaphor for U.S. operations there generally). When the U.S. military transport that Joe Biden and friends were supposed to fly out on arrived at Bagram, the U.S. Army captain running the control tower informed the senator that orders had come down from the Pentagon that no civilians were to be allowed on military aircraft. Throughout Biden’s trip, the Pentagon, presumably under orders from Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, had denied Biden any help, even though he chaired the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. No planes, no military tours, no nothing. This seemed to be the last straw. Biden was very cool, didn’t throw a tantrum, but was quietly pissed.”

 

I ended up lending Biden my satellite phone to call Secretary of State Colin Powell, via the State Department operations center, to see if he could help.

 

“‘This is Joe Biden, could you connect me with Colin Powell?’ Biden asked the State Department operator. A few minutes passed. ‘Colin? Hey, it’s Joe Biden.

 

… Yeah, I’m standing here on the runway at Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan, trying to get out on a military transport, and they’re telling me that the Pentagon has ordered that no civilians be let on the plane. I’m sorry to trouble you, Colin, but could you give us a hand here?’

 

“Powell told Biden to hold on for a minute while he tried to get Rumsfeld. Rumsfeld was in church, so Powell tracked down his deputy, Paul Wolfowitz.

There were a few more minutes of phone calls to Centcom headquarters in Florida before Powell came back on the phone with Biden.

 

“‘Joe,’ said the Secretary of State, ‘let me talk to the air traffic controller there.’

 

“Biden then handed the satellite phone to the air traffic controller with the following words: ‘Captain, the Secretary of State would like to talk to you.’

“It was pitch-dark, but I was sure I saw that captain’s face turn completely white with shock that he was talking to the Secretary of State, a former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, no less. All I heard him saying to Powell was, ‘Yessir, yessir, yessir.’ When he was done, he handed back the phone and told Biden, ‘You’re welcome to board, sir.’

 

...

 

So that was Joe Biden’s and my introduction to Afghanistan. When I interviewed him last December, a month after his election as president, we got talking informally about the Middle East and he asked if I remembered our trip to Afghanistan and all the craziness at the end.

I never forgot it, I told him. Clearly, neither had he.

 

Our nation’s effort there was worth a try; our soldiers and diplomats were trying to make it better, but it was never clear that they knew how or had enough Afghan partners. Yes, maybe leaving will make it worse, but our staying wasn’t really helping.

 

Our leaving may be a short-term disaster, and in the longer run, who knows, maybe Afghanistan will find balance on its own, like Vietnam. Or not. I don’t know. I am as humbled and ambivalent about it today as I was 20 years ago, and I am sure that Biden is too.

 

All I know for sure are: 1) We need to offer asylum to every Afghan who worked closely with us and may now be in danger. 2) Afghans are going to author their own future. 3) It is American democracy that is being eroded today by our own divisiveness, by our own hands, and unless we get that fixed we can’t help anyone — including ourselves.

 

SaE

Edited April 20, 2021 by Gojko & Stojko
formatiranje

[Tresko]

13 minutes ago, Gojko & Stojko said:

Kapiram da ti je pitanje neozbiljno i više u smislu "Da li Bajden još uvek zna gde je Avganistan ...?", ali za svaki slučaj, link na tekst Tomasa Fridmana iz Njujork Tajmsa, sa isečcima iz teksta po mom izboru;

 

What Joe Biden and I Saw After the U.S. Invaded Afghanistan

 

Back when we visited in 2002, there was hope that America could help make the country better.

 

I was not surprised that Joe Biden decided to finally pull the plug on the U.S. presence in Afghanistan. Back in 2002 it was reasonable to hope that our invasion there to topple Osama bin Laden and his Taliban allies could be extended to help make that country a more stable, tolerant and decent place for its citizens — and less likely to host jihadist groups. But it was also reasonable to fear from the start that trying to graft a Western political culture onto such a deeply tribalized, male-dominated and Islamic fundamentalist culture like Afghanistan’s was a fool’s errand, especially when you factored in how much neighboring Pakistan never wanted us to succeed because it could wrench Afghanistan from Pakistan’s cultural and geopolitical orbit.

 

Biden was torn between those hopes and fears from the very start. I know because I was with him on his first visit in early January 2002 to postwar Afghanistan. It was just weeks after the major fighting had subsided and the Taliban were evicted from Kabul.

...

 

“But while my heart kept pulling me in one direction, my head, and my eyes, kept encountering things that were deeply troubling. It started when I went along with Biden to meet the Minister of the Interior for the Interim Government, Yunus Qanooni, who is a Tajik. Behind his desk, where a minister should be hanging the picture of his president (Hamid Karzai, an ethnic Pashtun), he had a picture of Ahmed Shah Massoud (an ethnic Tajik), the leader of the Northern Alliance who was assassinated just before September 11.

 

...

 

“I looked around the room at the Special Forces A-teams that were there and could see America’s strength hiding in plain sight. It wasn’t smart missiles or night-fighting equipment. It was the fact that these Special Forces teams each seemed to be made up of a collection of Black, Asian, Hispanic, and white Americans. It is our ability to blend those many into one hard fist that is the real source of our power. This is precisely what Afghans have not been able to do in recent decades, and it has left them weak, divided, and prey to outsiders.”

 

(Reading that particular passage 20 years later I confess that I wonder if we have become more like the Afghans and not the Afghans more like us. Our diversity is only our strength as long as we can forge “out of many — one.” But lately, our parties and politics have become so tribalized it is not clear anymore that we can do that.)

 

...

 

The diary: “Getting out of Afghanistan turned out to be harder than getting in (which I hope will not be a metaphor for U.S. operations there generally). When the U.S. military transport that Joe Biden and friends were supposed to fly out on arrived at Bagram, the U.S. Army captain running the control tower informed the senator that orders had come down from the Pentagon that no civilians were to be allowed on military aircraft. Throughout Biden’s trip, the Pentagon, presumably under orders from Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, had denied Biden any help, even though he chaired the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. No planes, no military tours, no nothing. This seemed to be the last straw. Biden was very cool, didn’t throw a tantrum, but was quietly pissed.”

 

I ended up lending Biden my satellite phone to call Secretary of State Colin Powell, via the State Department operations center, to see if he could help.

 

“‘This is Joe Biden, could you connect me with Colin Powell?’ Biden asked the State Department operator. A few minutes passed. ‘Colin? Hey, it’s Joe Biden.

 

… Yeah, I’m standing here on the runway at Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan, trying to get out on a military transport, and they’re telling me that the Pentagon has ordered that no civilians be let on the plane. I’m sorry to trouble you, Colin, but could you give us a hand here?’

 

“Powell told Biden to hold on for a minute while he tried to get Rumsfeld. Rumsfeld was in church, so Powell tracked down his deputy, Paul Wolfowitz.

There were a few more minutes of phone calls to Centcom headquarters in Florida before Powell came back on the phone with Biden.

 

“‘Joe,’ said the Secretary of State, ‘let me talk to the air traffic controller there.’

 

“Biden then handed the satellite phone to the air traffic controller with the following words: ‘Captain, the Secretary of State would like to talk to you.’

“It was pitch-dark, but I was sure I saw that captain’s face turn completely white with shock that he was talking to the Secretary of State, a former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, no less. All I heard him saying to Powell was, ‘Yessir, yessir, yessir.’ When he was done, he handed back the phone and told Biden, ‘You’re welcome to board, sir.’

 

...

 

So that was Joe Biden’s and my introduction to Afghanistan. When I interviewed him last December, a month after his election as president, we got talking informally about the Middle East and he asked if I remembered our trip to Afghanistan and all the craziness at the end.

I never forgot it, I told him. Clearly, neither had he.

 

Our nation’s effort there was worth a try; our soldiers and diplomats were trying to make it better, but it was never clear that they knew how or had enough Afghan partners. Yes, maybe leaving will make it worse, but our staying wasn’t really helping.

 

Our leaving may be a short-term disaster, and in the longer run, who knows, maybe Afghanistan will find balance on its own, like Vietnam. Or not. I don’t know. I am as humbled and ambivalent about it today as I was 20 years ago, and I am sure that Biden is too.

 

All I know for sure are: 1) We need to offer asylum to every Afghan who worked closely with us and may now be in danger. 2) Afghans are going to author their own future. 3) It is American democracy that is being eroded today by our own divisiveness, by our own hands, and unless we get that fixed we can’t help anyone — including ourselves.

 

SaE

Ma naravno da je moje pitanje bilo ironično, naročito što je 2002 bila pre 19 godina, a čovek sada izgleda stvarno potpuno izlapetis i dementan, i svaki dan sve više izgleda potpuno pogubljen.

[Weenie Pooh]

41 minutes ago, Gojko & Stojko said:

link na tekst Tomasa Fridmana iz Njujork Tajmsa, sa isečcima iz teksta po mom izboru;

 

What Joe Biden and I Saw After the U.S. Invaded Afghanistan

 

Back when we visited in 2002, there was hope that America could help make the country better.

 

Nije pravi Fridman ako nema deo o tome šta mu je lokalni taksista rekao o fenomenu globalizacije, kako je u isto vreme pretnja ali i prilika.

 

[Anduril]

1 hour ago, Tresko said:

Ma naravno da je moje pitanje bilo ironično, naročito što je 2002 bila pre 19 godina, a čovek sada izgleda stvarno potpuno izlapetis i dementan, i svaki dan sve više izgleda potpuno pogubljen.

Mogao bi ti kao i ostatak vas doktora amatera da prestanete sa dijagnozama o kojima nemate pojma. Demencija je ozbiljan problem a ne nesto sa cim se sprda ili mesa sa mucanjem.

[Tresko]

1 minute ago, Anduril said:

Mogao bi ti kao i ostatak vas doktora amatera da prestanete sa dijagnozama o kojima nemate pojma. Demencija je ozbiljan problem a ne nesto sa cim se sprda ili mesa sa mucanjem.

Gde sam ja postavljao dijagnoze? O čemu bulazniš? Reći da neko izgleda izlapetis i dementan nije postavljanje dijagnoze, nego konstatacija kako neko ili nešto izgleda.

A o dijagnozama ni ti nemaš pojma, pa ne treba da prekorevaš druge ako o tome govore.

[copkillah]

16 minutes ago, Anduril said:

Mogao bi ti kao i ostatak vas doktora amatera da prestanete sa dijagnozama o kojima nemate pojma. Demencija je ozbiljan problem a ne nesto sa cim se sprda ili mesa sa mucanjem.

 

Malo si pomešao stvari, ne sprdaju se ljudi sa demencijom, već sa Bajdenom.

 

[mlatko]

 
Malo si pomešao stvari, ne sprdaju se ljudi sa demencijom, već sa Bajdenom.
 

ali ako se sprdamo sa Bajdenom vratiće se Trump

Inviato dal mio Mi 9 Lite utilizzando Tapatalk

[namenski]

10 minutes ago, mlatko said:

vratiće se Trump

Pa jos izlapeo, dementan...

[mlatko]

Pa jos izlapeo, dementan...[emoji99]

Fake New($)

Inviato dal mio Mi 9 Lite utilizzando Tapatalk

[namenski]

1 hour ago, Anduril said:

Demencija je ozbiljan problem a ne nesto sa cim se sprda...

Naravno da je itekako ozbiljan, ozbiljne drzave ga tako i tretiraju...

U odgovarajucim zdravstvenim ustanovama, negom, terapijom...

[copkillah]

50 minutes ago, mlatko said:

ali ako se sprdamo sa Bajdenom vratiće se Trump

Inviato dal mio Mi 9 Lite utilizzando Tapatalk
 

 

Ne, mi možemo da se sprdamo sa njim koliko hoćemo, Trampa može samo da vrati Bajden, kao što ga je i doveo.

[Krošek]

Obaveštenje		@prisutnima		▪ KR 2.2*
* vidi i stari Kućni red dopunsko pravilo 4 Anduril je u pravu i dosta je bilo o Bajdenu i demenciji na duži period. Istrošena tema ako išta. Kad bude nekog konkretnijeg povoda da se ponovo komentariše Bajdenovo zdravlje ok, whatever.
Napomena (izvod iz pravila): "Komunikacija forumaša sa moderatorima treba da se odvija na jednom podforumu Zid Plača..." – tema Imam pitanje za mod tim (ako je zaključana, i samo onda, privatna por.)

[Gojko & Stojko]

13 hours ago, Weenie Pooh said:

Nije pravi Fridman ako nema deo o tome šta mu je lokalni taksista rekao o fenomenu globalizacije, kako je u isto vreme pretnja ali i prilika.

Que?

 

Nazad na predsednika, jasno i glasno

 

 

SaE

[Weenie Pooh]

1 hour ago, Gojko & Stojko said:

Que?

 

Ma ništa, samo podsećam da citiraš ordinarnu budaletinu, možda najčuvenijeg klovna u američkoj MSM branši. Njegove naporne rečenice, stilski izmasakrirane a suštinski isprazne... ko to redovno čita, ni pakao mu neće teško pasti.

 

Mrzi me sad da tražim primer od pre par godina gde hvali velikog reformatora Muhameda bin Salmana, ceni da je on taj koji će uvesti arapski svet na velika vrata u slobodno društvo i digitalno globalno selo i bla bla truć. Ali ima par bisera i u ovom tekstu koji si ti izabrao.

 

16 hours ago, Gojko & Stojko said:

“I looked around the room at the Special Forces A-teams that were there and could see America’s strength hiding in plain sight. It wasn’t smart missiles or night-fighting equipment. It was the fact that these Special Forces teams each seemed to be made up of a collection of Black, Asian, Hispanic, and white Americans. It is our ability to blend those many into one hard fist that is the real source of our power. This is precisely what Afghans have not been able to do in recent decades, and it has left them weak, divided, and prey to outsiders.”

 

Boj ne bije svijetlo oružje, no boj bije nacionalno jedinstvo i rasni diverzitet! Nećemo valjda kao Avganistanci, te pizde tribalne razjedinjene, nije ni čudo da ne mogu da nam se suprotstave  

 

16 hours ago, Gojko & Stojko said:

A month after his election as president, we got talking informally about the Middle East and he asked if I remembered our trip to Afghanistan and all the craziness at the end.

I never forgot it, I told him. Clearly, neither had he.

 

Scena iz posete Avganistanu koja je ostavila najjači utisak: Pozajmio je satelitski telefon Bajdenu da okrene Pauela da im završi avion kući iako civilni letovi nisu bili dozvoljeni. Mozak gossip kolumniste u telu ratnog reportera. 

 

16 hours ago, Gojko & Stojko said:

Our leaving may be a short-term disaster, and in the longer run, who knows, maybe Afghanistan will find balance on its own, like Vietnam. Or not. I don’t know. I am as humbled and ambivalent about it today as I was 20 years ago, and I am sure that Biden is too.

 

Humbled & ambivalent: