Španija i Katalonija

[harper]

Ovde je mali problem u tome što bi polovina mladih nešto da modelira po svom nahođenju bez obzira na to šta druga polovina mladih misli o tome. Usput koriste to što je ta druga polovina, za razliku od njihovog nabrijanog aktivizma, uglavnom inertna i nije motivisana da brani status quo na ulici.

 

Grešan sam ali šta da radim - imam ozbiljne rezerve prema aktivistima, jal kurdskim jal katalonskim jal kojimgod. Ne zbog nepoverenja, nego zato što im ništa ne verujem.

 

Prdonje u Madridu su podjednak problem, naravno. Možda i veći.

 

Isto vazi i za matore prdonje, malo ih je tamo, malo ovamo. Ali, ako je 90% mladih za nesto ja bih pre uvek mucnuo glavom zasto je to tako nego kad je 90% matorih za nesto. Divim se onima koji su uvereni da se ovo dalje nece razvijati u ovom ili onom smeru ali to cemu se divim kod njih je naivnost. Svako, ali svako zavrsavanje ove konkretne krize prinudom, politickom, bezbednosnom ili finansijskom svejedno, samo ce da otvori jos jednu kartu iz spila u igri koja moze jako dugo trajati. A u toj igri sto duze bude trajala bice relevantniji ti mladi koji danas uce o Spaniji od Garde koja ima fascio u grbu nego matore prdonje koje ce za deset ili dvadeset godina ionako da mirisu travu odozdo.

 

No, zakon samo da se postuje i na konju smo. I'm all for it.

[MancMellow]

Prvo je EZ, potonja EU, ispriznavala nezavisne države, pa tek mesecima posle njih USA. A Francuzi i Englezi su nas prodali zbog Nemaca, kroz paket aranžman za osnivanje EU.

 

Politika i ideologija su još od druge polovine osamdesetih bile u senci pitanja opstanka države, da to pitanje nije bilo na dnevnom redu i da je mogla biti odrađena tranzicija ka demokratskoj federalnoj Jugoslaviji, pitanje je kakva bi i koja ta politika bila.

 

To je zamena teza.

Španski ustav je plod kompromisa posle 40 godina fašističke diktature, koja je iz viših interesa prolazila ispod radara. Da su Baskija, Katalonija i ini bili u poziciji Kosova, Slovenije i Hrvatske u drugoj polovini osamdesetih, niko ih zadržati ne bi mogao.

 

Ovako sve i da hoće, nemaju kud kad im je jasno stavljeno do znanja da bi se u tom slučaju sasušili ko grana dok si reko brexit.

 

Poslato sa HUAWEI VNS-L21 uz pomoć Tapatoka

 

Probacu da ne trolujem dalje o ex-Yu tako da cu ti ostati duzan odgovor

[Tribun_Populi]

Probacu da ne trolujem dalje o ex-Yu tako da cu ti ostati duzan odgovor

OK, ja kasno video da ste obustavili.

 

Poslato sa HUAWEI VNS-L21 uz pomoć Tapatoka

[Budja]

Porekao je to. Mada stoji da kalkuliše.

 

Artur Mas je to verovatno rekao.

 

Njegov problem je da bi na novim izborima njegova por biznis partija dobila po picci, na ustrb rasta ERC i CUP.

ERC je vec sada vodeca katalonska partija, a Masovi iz izbora u izbore slabe dobrim delom zbog koruptivnog nasledja Pujola.

[Budja]

Inace, zaminljivo je kako ova bezanija iz Barselone banaka i ostalih zapravo daje vetar u ledja Rufiianovoj tezi i tezi ostalih levicara - onome o socijalistickom karakteru katalonske nezavisnosti.

[hazard]

socijalizam i (ekstremni) nacionalizam nisu isključivi, to smo mogli da vidimo na delu više puta

 

Ruffianova teza nije samo da je katalonska nezavisnost socijalističke prirode, nego da je i progresivna

 

ali da, kapiram da CUP i ERC zabole za banke, njima super

[MancMellow]

It is not too late to stop the break-up of Spain

 

To avoid calamity, ask Catalans

what they really want

 

 

 

WHEN a democracy sends riot police to beat old ladies over the head with batons and stop them voting, something has gone badly wrong. Catalans say that almost 900 people were hurt by police in the referendum for independence on October 1st. Whatever the provocation from Catalan leaders in staging an unconstitutional poll, the reaction of Mariano Rajoy, the prime minister, has thrown Spain into its worst constitutional crisis since an attempted coup in 1981.

 

If Mr Rajoy thought that cracking heads would put a stop to secessionism, he could not have been more wrong. He has only created a stand-off that has energised his enemies and shocked his friends (see article). On October 3rd Catalonia, one of Spain’s richest regions, was paralysed by a protest strike. Hundreds of thousands of demonstrators have marched to express their outrage.

 

Secession would be a disaster for Spain. The country would lose its second city and risk the further loss of the Basque region. Secession would also hurt Catalans, which is why a majority of them probably oppose it. And Catalan independence might stir up separatism elsewhere in Europe—in Scotland again, no doubt, but also in northern Italy, in Corsica, perhaps even in Bavaria. To prevent the crisis deepening, both sides need to seek a new constitutional settlement. Instead, they are digging in and Catalonia is on the brink of unilaterally—and illegally—declaring independence.

 

After Franco

Spain has a historical fear of dismemberment. Catalan secessionism was one of the factors that brought about the Spanish civil war of the 1930s. Many Spaniards no doubt share the anger of King Felipe who, in a rare televised speech, denounced Catalonia’s leaders for irresponsibly and disloyally tearing up the constitution of 1978. After all, Catalans overwhelmingly endorsed that settlement, which entrenched democracy, brought prosperity and granted a large dose of autonomy to Spanish regions, including Catalonia.

 

A well-run democracy must abide by the rule of law. That is what protects democratic liberties, not least the freedom of minorities to express discontent. Until referendum day, nobody who experienced the vibrancy of Barcelona could seriously claim that Catalonia was oppressed. With few exceptions, notably when empires collapse, the world generally favours national unity over self-determination by subnational groups. Many of the states liberated by the break-up of the Soviet empire joined the European Union, but these days the EU is wary, warning would-be secessionists that new states have no automatic right to join. Without Spain’s support, Catalonia would find itself on the wrong side of a new customs wall.

 

For all these reasons the Catalan leader, Carles Puigdemont, does not have a strong case for independence. Nor can he claim a real mandate. He rammed the laws authorising the referendum through the Catalan parliament with a narrow majority and without proper debate. Those laws have no formal legal standing. Before his referendum, opinion polls suggested that only 40-45% of Catalans wanted to break away. The 90% vote to leave was 90% of an unregistered turnout of well under half, because Catalonia’s Remainers mostly declined to take part. As with populists elsewhere, Mr Puigdemont has offered a simplistic vision, without explaining the costs of independence or how it might come about.

 

But that is not the end of the story. Democracy rests on the consent of the governed. Even some who disagree with Mr Puigdemont’s methods believe Catalonia has a case for nationhood. It could survive economically. A lot of its people think it constitutes a nation. Under autonomy, Catalan leaders have promoted their language and their nationalist creed.

 

The pain in Spain

Whatever the legality of separatism, once the desire for independence reaches a critical point, governments must deal with it in three ways: crush it, bow to it, or negotiate in good faith, knowing that separation may still be the outcome.

 

Mr Rajoy has failed to grasp the nature of this choice. First he blocked the nationalists in the courts and, last weekend, he resorted to force. His deployment of policemen to suppress the Catalan vote was not only a propaganda gift to them but, more important, crossed a line. Aggression against crowds of peaceful citizens may work in Tibet but cannot be sustained in a Western democracy. In the contest between formal justice and natural justice, natural justice wins eventually every time. Constitutions exist to serve citizens, not the other way around. Rather than uphold the rule of law as he intended, Mr Rajoy ended up tarnishing the legitimacy of the Spanish state.

 

Will Mr Puigdemont declare independence? That would be reckless and irresponsible but, if he does, Mr Rajoy should resist the temptation to arrest Catalan leaders and, for the time being, avoid using his power to suspend regional rule. Just now, either measure would only compound his mistakes.

 

Only a negotiation can restore calm and it should start immediately. Even now most Catalans can probably still be won over with the offer of greater autonomy, including the power to raise and keep more of their own taxes, more protection for the Catalan language and some kind of recognition of the Catalans as a “nation”. Mr Rajoy might even take up the opposition Socialists’ idea of turning Spain into a federal state.

 

Any settlement, though, must include the option of a referendum on independence. Separation would be a wrenching change for Catalonia and the rest of Spain, so should not be done lightly. A majority of Catalans eligible to vote should be the minimum threshold for independence. A follow-up vote on the terms of a separation might be wise, too.

 

For all his deficiencies, David Cameron, the former British prime minister, was right about allowing a referendum on Scottish independence in 2014. He made the case for Scotland to stay, and won the vote convincingly. Mr Rajoy should do the same. The case for the unity of Spain is strong. But it must be won by force of argument. By using force alone, Mr Rajoy is not preventing the break-up of Spain, but hastening it.

 

This article appeared in the Leaders section of the print edition under the headline "How to save Spain"

 

 

[Bojan]

Mitinzi, mitinzi i mitinzi....dok se na trgu Colon u Madridu sve zuti/crveni od zastava Spanije za jedinstvo zemlje u drugom delu Madrida na Plaza de La Cibeles i sirom Spanije, druga vrsta mitinga od nazivom Parlem-Hablemos i svi obuceni i sa dekorom u beloj boji.

 

Zanimljivo, gledao sam prilog Al Jazeera Balkans. Čini mi se da su malo publiku doveli u zabunu. Rekli su da je održan miting u Madridu za jedinstvo, dok je sa druge strane u Barceloni održan ovaj miting Parlem/Hablemos. A zapravo je Parlem/Hablemos održan u više španskih gradova (uključujući i Madrid), dok je pored toga u Madridu održan miting za jedinstvo.

 

[bradilko]

ehh sad neki kontra miting i autobusna okupacija..neki šolević

nisu naše fele

videlo se to onog trena kad je barsa unatoč svemu odigrala protiv las palmasa i kad je car pike otišao da igra u reprezentaciju.nije pike zdovc, nije ovo sfrjot

[Bojan]

Artur Mas je to verovatno rekao.

 

Njegov problem je da bi na novim izborima njegova por biznis partija dobila po picci, na ustrb rasta ERC i CUP.

ERC je vec sada vodeca katalonska partija, a Masovi iz izbora u izbore slabe dobrim delom zbog koruptivnog nasledja Pujola.

 

Nije sporno šta je rekao. Ima FT audio snimak. Sporno je valjda oko tog naslova koji su postavili pa je on u Lavangvardiji pojasnio da nije rekao da Katalonija nije spremna za nezavisnost. Koliko god da je nepouzdan ipak mislim da u ovom momentu ne bi okretao leđa koaliciji koja je osvojila preko 1,6 miliona glasova na platformi za nezavisnost. Ta koalicija se i zove "Zajedno za da", tako da ne može biti jasnije zbog čega su ljudi glasali za njih. Ako bi okrenuo leđa tome pretrpeo bi pre svega političku štetu jer bi bilo vrlo teško dati glasačima valjane argumente za to.

 

Bilo bi možda pogrešno izvlačiti zaključke o tome kakav bi bio rezultat pravog referenduma iz rezultata izbora za katalonski parlament od 2015. Ali tu prosta računica govori da opcija "Da" ima 2 miliona glasova. Mogu se tu dodati još glasovi nekih manjih partija, ali prelomni bi bili glasovi Podemosa. Mislim da bi oni u ovako napetoj situaciji ipak bili skloniji da na neki način pruže otpor španskim centralnim vlastima.

[Indy]

socijalizam i (ekstremni) nacionalizam nisu isključivi, to smo mogli da vidimo na delu više puta

 

 

 

Ako misliš na nas, to je bio više feudalizam.

[hazard]

Ne mislim samo na nas, tj. uopšte mi to nije prvo palo na pamet

[Frank Pembleton]

Meni zapravo izgleda da se sa strane EU fino dampuje ovo sve.

Juče mi kaže kolega da za petak u pretrazi kod rojtersa i AP izađe svega par priloga , reda radi...

 

....shit has hit the fan...

[vememah]

Dampuje (dump - izbaciti) ili denfuje (dämpfen - prigušiti)?

 

Podemos kao glas razuma objasnio Rahojevu ulogu u nastanku krize i povećanju broja onih koji su za nezavisnost.

[Braća Strugacki]

objasnjava mi drugar iz barselone kako dovoze demonstrante unioniste sa svih strana autobusima i jos pita da li mogu da zamislim tako nesto lol