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Rat za Nagorno-Karabah

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pasinjan kada je dosao na vlast, iste sekunde je trebalo da sazna da je vojna situacija katastrofalna i da konacni poraz u ratu (zapocetom pre 30 godina) ceka iza ugla. da se tako nesto sazna prvo treba da se to hoce saznati odnosno da se bude spreman i na tu mogucnost. 

 

znas ono ramsfeldovo, parafraziram: known knowns - things we know we know; known unknowns - things we know we don't know; unknown unknowns - things we don't know we don't know (pun sam floskula danas izvini)


u situaciji u kojoj je jermenija decenijama unazad pasinjan je morao po svaku cenu da zaroni u te unknown unknowns i da dodje do potpune istine. da je to bilo tako, ne bi on radio one provokacije azerbejdzana, nista to nema ama bas nikakvog smisla u retrospektivi. kao neko ludilo. 

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  • Та медаља има две стране. У Јерменији већ годинама постоји солидан антируски сентимент чији део је стална кампања да се руска база у Гјумрију избаци напоље. То је врло интересантно размишљање, будући

  • Реално ми не ваља тај пост. Аргумент о некој свеобухватној кампањи и систематском отклону не стоји.   Мислим да је главни проблем између Русије и Јерменије тренутно тај што Руси не верују Па

  • Нисам баш сигуран шта је Руси требало да ураде овде, зарате са Азерима на њиховој међународно признатој територији? Ово је пре свега јерменски фејл за који Јермени имају само своју елиту да криве. При

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ako se ne varam azerbejdzan je nudio kompromis, ako im se moze verovati, cak i da ovaj gasovod sto je otisao na gruziju, prolazi kroz jermeniju (u zamenu za dogovor oko nk i oslobadjanje ovih teritorija oko nk) cime bi se stvorila medjuzavisnost drzava sto bi bio osnov za bolje odnose. morali su jermeni da budu pametniji.

alijev je hteo da ponizi jermene na bilo koji nacin, i rat nije jedini nacin za to. pozicija azerbejdzana nije sustinski kompromisna nego maksimalisticka, a nominalni nudjeni kompromis je mamac da jermeni pristanu za njih (u odnosu na azere) ponizavajuce odredbe mira, iako iz trece perspektive, mozda i nase odavde, takvo razresenje izgleda kompromisno, racionalno i normativno prihvatljivo - stvar je perspektive.

 

jermeni su dospeli u takvo stanje svesti da je kompromis poraz za njih a pobeda za azerbejdzan, sto je neverovatno glupa i paralisuca pozicija. kao kolektivno ludilo, ne znam kako da prenesem svoje utiske o tome, a da ne bude ruzno i omalovazavajuce. 

 

znaci jermeni su morali da se izdignu iznad niskih pobuda alijeva (i kog god neprijateljskog vladara) i pocnu proces razracunavanja sa unutrasnjim demonima u cilju spasavanja nacije od propasti u koju su vec duboko zagazili posle vise decenija izolacije i siromasenja.

 

da nisu verovali u pravednost svog drzanja bafer zone i da su znali da je to jedan uzas, a to zapravo jeste jedan uzas, jedan samar covecnosti, jer su od lepog mesta na planeti gde su zivele stotina hiljada ljudi napravili jedno nista, jedno veliko sranje... i alijev kad sa gadjenjem prica o tome, makar to i ne bilo iskreno ljudsko gadjenje nego slavodobitno nasladjivanje, potpuno je u pravu (pa sad da se covek zamisli koliki slepac moras biti da takvoj figuri dozvolis moralnu superiornost)... dakle da nisu verovali u to, jermeni bi imali sansu. oduzeli su sebi sansu time sto su pustili da se spontano krnji moralnost njihove pozicije, misleci da su postigli pobedu koju su hteli i da je vreme za njih stalo. malo banalizujem ali mislim da je to otprilike to. 

 

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Putin: Pashinyan rejected a peace deal accepted by Azerbaijan on 19-20 October

 

In an interview with Russia 24 Vladimir Putin said that he had managed to convince Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev to ‘end military actions’ during discussions on 19 and 20 October, but Armenia turned the offer down.  

‘I managed to convince Aliyev that it's possible to end military actions, but a mandatory condition on his side was the return of refugees, including to the city of Shusha. To my surprise, the position of our Armenian partners was formulated in such a way that this was unacceptable to them. (Armenian Prime Minister) Pashinyan told me directly, that he saw in this a direct threat to the interests of Armenia and Karabakh’, the Russian President said. 

‘Now, I can’t really understand what this threat was supposed to be, considering that this would presume the return of peaceful civilians, with the maintenance of control by the Armenian side over this part of the territory in Karabakh, including Shusha, along with the presence of our peacekeepers, which we were already discussing with Armenia and Azerbaijan.’ 

 

https://oc-media.org/live-updates-armenian-president-calls-on-pashinyan-to-resign/

 

Evo i snimka na ruskom:

 

 

 

Autor jedne od najpreporučivanijih knjiga o sukobu oko Karabaha, Crna bašta (Black Garden), Tomas de Val:

 

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Perspectives | Now comes a Karabakh war over cultural heritage

Fears are growing in particular for Armenian monuments being handed over.

Thomas de Waal Nov 16, 2020

 

Azerbaijan’s military success confirmed by a Russian-brokered ceasefire has rapidly changed the map of the South Caucasus. Attention has now turned to the rich cultural heritage, in particular the Armenian churches falling under Azerbaijani control.

Beyond preserving these precious monuments for future generations and as places of worship, this is a test of goodwill. Armenia and Azerbaijan have agreed to a cessation of hostilities but are still a long way from peace. On an issue where human lives are not at stake, can the parties agree to a more inclusive narrative of regional history that does not seek to erase the identity of the other? The early signs are not positive.

This is not a simple story. As Azerbaijani armed forces recaptured territories this autumn that had been under Armenian occupation since 1993, the scale of cultural devastation became apparent. Armenians had not just destroyed almost all the houses, but also, in many cases, wrecked graveyards. Pictures of a mosque in Alkhanli village of Fizuli region, which had been turned into a cowshed, caused outrage.

The Azerbaijani Ministry of Culture also expressed indignation at Armenian excavations at the famous Azykh cave, a prehistoric site in the Martuni region which was extensively researched in the Soviet period, and at alterations to the Shahbulaq fortress in Aghdam region.

As Azerbaijani forces moved deeper into Karabakh, the issue then arose of the hundreds of Armenian churches, tombstones and monuments there. Azerbaijan now controls most of Hadrut region and its monuments such as the Gtichavank church, which dates back to the 13th century.

As Armenians prepare to cede Azerbaijani territories under the November 10 deal, they are handing over many significant monuments. These include the Tsitsernavank basilica church in Lachin region and the archaeological site of the old city of Tigranakert in Aghdam region. The Amaras monastery in Martuni region, which contains a 5th century mausoleum and is said to date back to the era of St. Gregory the Illuminator, the founder of the Armenian church, is situated on the new front line and it is not clear whether Armenians or Azerbaijanis currently control it.

Most attention has focused on the 12th century Dadivank monastery in Kelbajar region, now due to be returned to Azerbaijan on November 25. News footage showed Russian peacekeepers at the site.

Azerbaijan’s Ministry of Culture has said it regards churches such as Dadivank to be “Albanian,” not Armenian. Anar Karimov, first deputy culture minister of Azerbaijan, posted a controversial tweet in which he referred to the monastery as having been “built by wife of Albanian prince Vakhtang.”

The “Albanian” reference is to a bitter political-historical quarrel that has raged in parallel to the military Karabakh conflict.

The idea that churches in Karabakh are not Armenian but actually “Caucasian Albanian” stems from a 1960s Soviet Azerbaijani thesis advanced by Ziya Buniatov, an influential scholar who was later regarded as Azerbaijan’s national historian.

The Albanians were a small Christian people in the Caucasus region who had mostly died out by the 10th century – although the Udins, a small ethnic group in northern Azerbaijan, are their likely successors. A handful of old fragments of Albanian script have survived and been deciphered.

However, Buniatov and others argued that a Christian ecclesiastical eparchy named the “Church of Albania” had lasted until the 19th century and that this was proof of a separate Albanian identity lasting hundreds of years longer than previously thought. This ambiguity allowed Azerbaijani politicians to assert that Karabakh’s churches were not actually Armenian (and its people were therefore not either) – while ignoring the fact that they were built in an Armenian style and covered in Armenian-language inscriptions.

What will happen to Karabakh’s Christian monuments now? Judging on past experience, their future may be one of preservation, unilateral restoration or destruction.

Destruction has been the fate of almost all Armenian monuments in Azerbaijan’s exclave of Nakhchivan. The most egregious case was the razing of the famous medieval Armenian cemetery at Djulfa, with thousands of khachkar cross-stones, in Nakhchivan in 2005-06. As Nakhchivan is relatively unvisited, this story has not received the attention it would if the region were more accessible.

 

Unilateral and tendentious restoration has been visited on several monuments on both sides of the conflict.

For example, Armenians have restored and re-opened a “Blue Mosque” in Yerevan, a city which had a strong Muslim identity in the 18th and 19th centuries. The mosque is mostly used for worship by resident or visiting Iranians. A smaller less conspicuous mosque in Yerevan situated at Vardanants Street near the city center was pulled down as the Karabakh conflict began.

The Karabakh Armenian authorities also controversially restored the two mosques in the town of Shusha. The Yerevan and Shusha restorations used the mirror image of the “Albanian theory.” Armenian restorers called the mosques “Iranian” or “Persian,” seeking to deny any Azerbaijani identity to them – even though it is clear that the Turkic-speaking Shiite builders of these mosques were the ancestors of modern-day Azerbaijanis.

Similarly, the Azerbaijani authorities have restored the Armenian church in the center of Baku. However they have not put a cross on the dome, and the only public service in the church in the last 30 years occurred when Catholicos Karekin visited Baku in 2010. A smaller 18th century church of the Virgin Mary near Baku’s Maiden Tower was pulled down in 1992. In 2008 many graves in the Christian cemetery in the north part of Baku, known as Montino (the main Armenian cemetery in the city), were also hastily razed to make way for a new road.   

The Azerbaijani authorities have also restored churches in the towns of Nij and Gabala in controversial fashion. The Nij church – which has good reason to be called “Albanian” as it is located in a region populated by the Udin ethnic group – was restored with the support of a Norwegian NGO, Norwegian Humanitarian Enterprise. However, Armenian-language inscriptions on the church were erased at the end of December 2004, with the result that foreign ambassadors declined to attend the re-opening of the church.

Based on that experience, Steinar Gil, Norwegian ambassador to Azerbaijan at that time, commented, “I am worried because Azerbaijan has a sad reputation related to Armenian religious monuments,” and referred to “the almost total Albanization of Armenian churches and monasteries, irrespective of their time of construction.”

As members of UNESCO, Armenia and Azerbaijan are both obliged to honor international cultural conventions, including the 1954 Hague Convention which is designed to protect monuments at risk due to armed conflict. Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov also invoked UNESCO in comments on November 12. But UNESCO mainly operates in a country at the discretion of a national government. So pressure to preserve monuments may come down to mobilization by international heritage experts.

Well-known monuments may remain untouched after the intervention of no less an authority than Russian President Vladimir Putin, who personally asked President Ilham Aliyev for – and reportedly received – reassurances on the “preservation and normal operation” of churches such as Dadivank.  

Simon Maghakyan, an Armenian scholar who researched the Djulfa cemetery destruction, says he is more worried about the fate of lesser-known Armenian monuments. He said, “My fear is that the monuments at the highest risk for immediate erasure are being overlooked, including smaller medieval churches and especially the numerous statuesque khachkars that are nearly impossible to ‘Albanize,’ given their rich Armenian inscriptions. One of the most prominent khachkars at grave risk is the 14th century Angels and the Cross in the Vank village of Hadrut region, which Azerbaijan captured last month.”

Those Armenian and Azerbaijani experts who work to an international standard rather than a nationalist agenda can play a positive role – but only if given the space to do so. Azerbaijani scholar Cavid Aga argues, “By preserving Armenian heritage, we can learn Caucasian Albanian heritage too.”

 

Thomas de Waal is a senior fellow with Carnegie Europe, specializing in Eastern Europe and the Caucasus region. He is the author of numerous publications about the region. 

 

https://eurasianet.org/perspectives-now-comes-a-karabakh-war-over-cultural-heritage

Edited by vememah

  On 17. 11. 2020. at 18:17, apostata said:
 
a Irance slika Mosad kog slika Hezbolah koje slika Nato koji slikaju FSB koji je na slici.

Inviato dal mio Mi 9 Lite utilizzando Tapatalk

  On 17. 11. 2020. at 18:17, apostata said:

 

Ovo koncanica sa snajpera ili mitraljeza? Izgleda su bili na oko 300 metera.

Ceo Putinov današnji nastup (na ruskom) i Deepl prevod transkripta.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87URcZZj9_4 (ne može se embedovati)

 

Reveal hidden contents

http://kremlin.ru/events/president/news/64431

Azeri mirno usli u agdamski rajon

Agdam izgleda kao Pripjat, čak i gore, a nekad je tu živelo 40k ljudi. Baš me zanima šta Azeri imaju u planu za Agdam, Šušu, Kalbadžar i ostala mesta gde ih nekad bilo puno, a sada nema žive duše jer je i ono malo Jermena otišlo. Neke pare će sigurno uložiti da ožive ta mesta, pretpostavljam da će na razne načine stimulisati ljude da se doseljavaju u ova mesta, ne samo one koji su nekad živeli tu već i druge.

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The Azerbaijani government is pushing forward with an ambitious plan to reconstruct the territories that it recently won from Armenia, many of which have been virtually leveled since Azerbaijan lost control of them in the 1990s.

President Ilham Aliyev highlighted the reconstruction plans during a November 16 tour of some of the territories along with his wife and first vice president, Mehriban Aliyeva.

“A new master plan will be drawn up. Relevant instructions have been given. A master plan will be developed for each city. All office buildings, public buildings, schools and medical centers will be established here. All infrastructure will be put in place. Streets, parks and alleys will be built. Victory monuments will be erected in all the cities and life will return here,” Aliyev said during a visit to Jabrayil.

The government has not said how much it intends to spend on all of this. Independent economists have estimated the costs in the tens of billions of dollars; Azerbaijan’s annual state budget is currently about $15 billion.

Economist Togrul Valiyev told Eurasianet that fully reconstructing the newly retaken territories would likely take 10 years and cost 25 billion manats (about $15 billion). 

“There is basically no infrastructure left in Jabrayil, Fuzuli, Zangilan, and Gubadly,” four of the seven regions that Azerbaijan regained control of, Valiyev said. “It’s going to cost about as much as Azerbaijan spends in a year” on its entire budget, he said. 

 

https://eurasianet.org/azerbaijan-starts-rebuilding-in-newly-won-territories?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook&fbclid=IwAR0WdHAe8RcJ7mCt2Y0HopZIXDwMvCjpDgMRz1cipl-PP6BBh5kvhBCqqvM

Kul, hvala. Pretpostavio sam da će "neke" pare zapravo biti milijarde, da pokažu Jermenima kako se to radi kad osvojiš/oslobodiš teritoriju.

  On 20. 11. 2020. at 23:02, Nikodije said:

Kul, hvala. Pretpostavio sam da će "neke" pare zapravo biti milijarde, da pokažu Jermenima kako se to radi kad osvojiš/oslobodiš teritoriju.


Ja sve imam utisak da ce to biti Potemkinova sela i da ce taj kraj biti u principu trajno mrtav, poput nase Krajine.

Edited by Kundera

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