slobodan pristup naoružanju

[Venom]

A sta je hteo da pita? Da u jednom slucaju drzava moze da mi se mesa u zivot, a u drugom ne moze, i da je to kao kontradikcija? Jesi to hteo da cujes?

Da. I'm with mandingo (ovim laznim, ne onim pravim - moze neka njegova koleginica eventualno). Mozemo ovo da pretvorimo u Google war - u stvari ne mozemo, imam pametnija posla - ali ne vidim preveliku razliku izmedju zgrazavanja/histerije nad legalizacijom droge i dopustanju da boy oh boy, neko poseduje pistolj u kuci.

[kgmr]

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[Indy]

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Edited January 31, 2011 by Indy

[mandingo]

Nista, zakljucajte topic. Gun control, FTW, Legalizacija droga, FTW. A za venoma...

Edited February 1, 2011 by mandingo

[cedo]

Gledao sam neke studije koje su pokusavale dokazati i jedno i drugo, mislim, ranije sam bio kao i ti za vece restrikcije, medjutim, moj konacni zakljucak je bio da restrikcije po tom pitanju ne igraju neku veliku ulogu a da su drugi faktori tu mnogo vazniji. Eno dole neki zanimljivi podaci:

zanimljivi podaci? ovaj NRA pamflet? ti to ozbiljno mislis?

Sorry Anduril na kashnjenju ... izgleda da na poslu imam vishe slobodnog vremena, do li kuci :(

Bash pamfleti ... Ako npr. pogledash ovo:Approximately 60 percent of all murder victims in the United States in 1989 (about 12,000 people) were killed with firearms. According to estimates, firearm attacks injured another 70,000 victims, some of whom were left permanently disabled. In 1985 (the latest year for which data are available), the cost of shootings--either by others, through self-inflicted wounds, or in accidents--was estimated to be more than $14 billion nationwide for medical care, long-term disability, and premature death. (Editor's note: the number of gun victims has increased since 1989 to 15,456 gun homicides in 1994. Source: FBI UCR report.) (Dr. Jeffrey A. Roth served as study director for the Panel on the Understanding and Control of Violent Behavior. Currently he is research director in the Bethesda, Maryland, office of the Law and Public Policy area of Abt Associates, Inc.)i ukombinujesh to sa linkom shto sam dao kada sam ti pokazao tabelu sa samoubistvima ochinjenim oruzhjem ... izveshtaj Klintonove administracije, lako se da zakljuchiti da je i u Americi sprovedena restrikcija shto se tiche slobodnog noshenja oruzhja ... bash se pitam zashto.Ne znam odakle ideja da drugi amandman mozhe da se tumachi tako kao shto ga tumache iz NRA (a ti prenosish) ... sloboda noshenja oruzhja se jasno kosi sa javnom bezbednoshcu, a javna bezbednost, mislim da cesh morati da se slozhish je mnogo bitnija od nechije(g) zhelje/prava da poseduje/nosi oruzhje. To ti je isto kao i sloboda govora ... jeste garantovana, ali ne toliko da npr. mozhesh da vichesh "bomba" tamo gde bombe nema, a onda izazovesh paniku medju ljudima.

[Anduril]

Pored ovog sto sam vec naveo, smatram da zabrana donosi daleko vecu stetu drustvu od koristi. Milijarde i milijarde se obrcu, sto u rukama mafije, sto u beskonacnom "ratu protiv droge", a da je rezultat vise nego porazan.

Dok je isti slucaj i sa zabranom oruzja? Kako to da ta mera ne funkcionise gotovo nigde u latinskoj Americi koja je po mnogim specificnostima slicna severnoj? Mislim, razumem ja intuitivnu averziju prema oruzju ali podaci to jednostavno ne pokazuju ono sto tvrdite. Restriktivni zakoni ne koreliraju sa nivoom kriminaliteta ali zato cesto koreliraju sa manjim gradjanskim slobodama.

Sorry Anduril na kashnjenju ... izgleda da na poslu imam vishe slobodnog vremena, do li kuci :(

Bash pamfleti ...

Dobro, jedno je reci pamflet a nesto sasvim drugo je pokazati da to sto sam boldovao nije tacno. Za sada nisam video nikakav podatak da je ono sto je napisano laz ili netacno.

Approximately 60 percent of all murder victims in the United States in 1989 (about 12,000 people) were killed with firearms. According to estimates, firearm attacks injured another 70,000 victims, some of whom were left permanently disabled. In 1985 (the latest year for which data are available), the cost of shootings--either by others, through self-inflicted wounds, or in accidents--was estimated to be more than $14 billion nationwide for medical care, long-term disability, and premature death. (Editor's note: the number of gun victims has increased since 1989 to 15,456 gun homicides in 1994. Source: FBI UCR report.) (Dr. Jeffrey A. Roth served as study director for the Panel on the Understanding and Control of Violent Behavior. Currently he is research director in the Bethesda, Maryland, office of the Law and Public Policy area of Abt Associates, Inc.)i ukombinujesh to sa linkom shto sam dao kada sam ti pokazao tabelu sa samoubistvima ochinjenim oruzhjem ... izveshtaj Klintonove administracije, lako se da zakljuchiti da je i u Americi sprovedena restrikcija shto se tiche slobodnog noshenja oruzhja ... bash se pitam zashto.Ne znam odakle ideja da drugi amandman mozhe da se tumachi tako kao shto ga tumache iz NRA (a ti prenosish) ... sloboda noshenja oruzhja se jasno kosi sa javnom bezbednoshcu, a javna bezbednost, mislim da cesh morati da se slozhish je mnogo bitnija od nechije(g) zhelje/prava da poseduje/nosi oruzhje. To ti je isto kao i sloboda govora ... jeste garantovana, ali ne toliko da npr. mozhesh da vichesh "bomba" tamo gde bombe nema, a onda izazovesh paniku medju ljudima.

Ne razumem sta ti ovaj link dokazuje. Stalno ponavljam, mozem ja tu da postavim statistiku Brazila ili Meksika koje su jos gore i sta? Linkujes podatke o mrtvima i povredjenima oruzjem a ne linkujes podatak koliko ljudi od ovog broja zapravo pogine od ilegalnog naoruzanja, koliko zbog raznih ratova bandi, koliko zbog do zuba naoruzane policije (koja btw. pobije veliki broj neduznih pa se ljudi mnogo manje bune zbog toga) a koliko direktno zbog nesreca i liberalnih zakona o posedovanju i nosenju. Na cinjenicu da u Svajcarskoj, Ceskoj ili u Izraelu jednostavno nema tih problema isto tako niko nije dao objasnjenje. Mislim, ima i NRA nekih argumenata koji su ocigledno tendenciozni da nosenje ili posedovanje oruzja drasticno smanjuje kriminalitet u sta takodje ne verujem.No, da probamo malo drugacije. Braca je gore spomenuo ono sto je dobro/korisno za drustvo, tj. to je taj opste dobro argument. Ja mislim da je upravo taj princip veoma relativan i zbog toga problematican i podlozan manipulacijama. Sta je opste dobro, ko to odredjuje, na osnovu kojih podataka i da li to opste dobro ima prednost nad pravima pojedinca? Kakav legitimitet ima vecina da odredjuje sta je bolje/dobro za manjinu? Najveci doprinos engleske a zatim kasnije americke revolucije nije nacelo parlamentarizma i demokratije nego zagarantovana prava pojedinca. Na zalost, ta prava nisu jos uvek zagarantovana u dovoljnoj meri da bi bila zasticena od strane mnogih koji misle da znaju sta je bolje za druge od njih samih.

[Indy]

Sta je opste dobro, ko to odredjuje, na osnovu kojih podataka i da li to opste dobro ima prednost nad pravima pojedinca?

Pa - ako je tako - ajmo onda lepo svako za sebe, pa neka najjaci pobede. Onamo si napisao da si svestan koristi od postojanja drzave, medjutim ne bi se reklo... mislim da ti je mozak dobraano ispran, u stvari si me prilicno razocarao.Samo sam to hteo, inace i dalje vazi da sam otiso sa teme... evo vam i pozdrav

[cedo]

No, da probamo malo drugacije. Braca je gore spomenuo ono sto je dobro/korisno za drustvo, tj. to je taj opste dobro argument. Ja mislim da je upravo taj princip veoma relativan i zbog toga problematican i podlozan manipulacijama. Sta je opste dobro, ko to odredjuje, na osnovu kojih podataka i da li to opste dobro ima prednost nad pravima pojedinca? Kakav legitimitet ima vecina da odredjuje sta je bolje/dobro za manjinu? Najveci doprinos engleske a zatim kasnije americke revolucije nije nacelo parlamentarizma i demokratije nego zagarantovana prava pojedinca. Na zalost, ta prava nisu jos uvek zagarantovana u dovoljnoj meri da bi bila zasticena od strane mnogih koji misle da znaju sta je bolje za druge od njih samih.

Shto se tiche linkova ...Prvo ... ti nisi pokazao da posedovanje/noshenje oruzhja ima vishe dobrih strana od loshih ... hajde pokazhi da je npr. broj heroja koji su se svojim pishtoljem odbranili od kriminala veci od onih koji su od macha poginuli, od nesrecnih sluchajeva, od svega drugoga loshega shto oruzhje nosi ...Smeshni su na tom sajtu ... karikiram (ali sigurno su napravili tako neku usporedbu) ... broj poginulih u vozhnji bicikla je veci od poginulih od vatrenog oruzhja ... a nitko da se zapita ... koliko to ljudi uchestvuje u vozhnji biciklom, koliko se okolina chuva vozhnjom biciklom, koliko kilometara se predje vozhnjom biciklom, koliko nesreca se zavrshi smrtnim ishodom od ukupnog broja nesreca na biciklu ... a nasuprot toga ... udaljimo se od korisnosti oruzhja, eto samo, koliko se nesreca zavrshi smrtnim ishodom upotrebom vatrenog oruzhja.Drugo ... ja sam pokazao donoseci podatak da je 89' broj mrtvih od vatrenog oruzhja u USA bio toliki koliko pishe, da je u medjuvremenu donesen restriktivni zakon i da je broj istih smanjen za (chini mi se da pishe u onom dokumentu Bele Kuce) za 40% ... ne znam shta ti treba vishe da bi uvideo da restriktivniji zakon donosi manji broj mrtvih ...Evo Klintona i Brejdija:THEN: Gun violence reaches record levels.Gun violence reached its highest point in 20 years; a record 565,000 Americans were victims of gun crime in 1992. Murders by juveniles increased by 65 percent between 1987 and 1993, reaching the highest level ever in 1993. In 1992, an average of nearly 15 children every day were killed by firearms through violence, accidents or suicides. NOW: Common sense gun safety laws bring down gun crime by 40 percent.President Clinton fought the gun lobby and won common sense gun safety laws including the Brady Bill and the Assault Weapons Ban. Under the Clinton-Gore Administration, overall gun crime has declined 40 percent, and firearms related homicides committed by juveniles have dropped by nearly 50 percent. There were 227,000 fewer gun crimes in 1999 than 1992, and 1,246 fewer children were killed by guns than in 1992. Imash i samoubistva ... ono shto reche ... naci ce drugi nachin ... ali ako razmislish, vatreno oruzhje je najbrzhi nachin da skonchash zhivot, pa ljudi u depresiji, afektu uchine shvashta. Logichno, ne? A i napisao sam to ... no, tko chita.Oko javne bezbednosti, ne bih ... ako ne smatrash da je oruzhje ozbiljna pretnja javnoj bezbednosti, ja bih ovde zavrshio diskusiju.Ako pak smatrash, onda, mislim da nema mesta imputiranom dushebrizhnishtvu ... javna bezbednost vazhi i za nositelja oruzhja i treba da ima prednost nad njegovom potrebom da nosi oruzhje.

[braca]

Dobro, jedno je reci pamflet a nesto sasvim drugo je pokazati da to sto sam boldovao nije tacno. Za sada nisam video nikakav podatak da je ono sto je napisano laz ili netacno.

Salis se? Da pocnemo od pocetka onda :

1. Thousands of children die annually in gun accidents.False. Gun accidents involving children are actually at record lows, although you wouldn't know it from listening to the mainstream media. In 1997, the last year for which data are available, only 142 children under 15 years of age died in gun accidents, and the total number of gun-related deaths for this age group was 642. More children die each year in accidents involving bikes, space heaters or drownings. The often repeated claim that 12 children per day die from gun violence includes "children" up to 20 years of age, the great majority of whom are young adult males who die in gang-related violence.

Aha. Znaci, ako nije "thousands" kao sto neki tvrde, onda je ok? "samo" 142 godisnje (10x Colombine masakr)? A crnci i latinosi sto se rokaju medjusobno, ko ih jebe, oni se ne racunaju? A cime se rokaju, sibicama?

2. Gun shows are responsible for a large number of firearms falling into the hands of criminals.False. Contrary to President Clinton's claims, there is no "gun show loophole." All commercial arms dealers at gun shows must run background checks, and the only people exempt from them are the small number of non-commercial sellers. According to the U.S. Department of Justice, at most 2 percent of guns used by criminals are purchased at gun shows, and most of those were purchased legally by people who passed background checks.

Gun shows? Ozbiljno?

3. The tragedy at Columbine High School a year ago illustrates the deficiencies of current gun control laws.False. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold violated close to 20 firearms laws in amassing their cache of weapons (not to mention the law against murder), so it seems rather dubious to argue that additional laws might have prevented this tragedy. The two shotguns and rifle used by Harris and Klebold were purchased by a girlfriend who would have passed a background check, and the TEC-9 handgun used by them was already illegal.

Preventing School Shootings: A Summary of a U.S. Secret Service Safe School Initiative ReportAttackers Had Easy Access to GunsMost attackers had used guns previously and had access to guns. In nearly two-thirds of the incidents, the attackers obtained the gun(s) used in the attack from their own home or that of a relative. In some cases, the guns were gifts from the students’ parents.

Za pocetak, zvanicni sajt : National Institue of Justice, ima materijala za ohoho proucavanja.Na primer :

Who Is Most Affected by Gun Violence?Percent of homicides committed with a gun by age of victimSource: Bureau of Justice StatisticsPeople between the ages of 15 and 24 are most likely to be targeted by gun violence as opposed to other forms of violence. From 1976 to 2005, 77 percent of homicide victims ages 15-17 died from gun-related injuries. This age group was most at risk for gun violence during this time period.Teens and young adults are more likely than persons of other ages to be murdered with a gun. Most violent gun crime, especially homicide, occurs in cities and urban communities. [1]Intimate partner violence can be fatal when a gun is involved — from 1990 to 2005, two-thirds of spouse and ex-spouse homicide victims were killed by guns. The overall number of firearm homicides among intimates has fallen considerably during the past 30 years, however.

Firearms and Violence, Research in BriefKey findings: Firearms are used in about 60 percent of the murders committed in this country, and attacks by firearms injure thousands of others. The risk of being murdered with a firearm falls disproportionately on young people, particularly young black men.Greater gun availability increases the rates of murder and felony gun use, but does not appear to affect general violence levels.Self-defense is the most commonly cited reason for acquiring a gun, but it is unclear how often these guns are used for self-protection against unprovoked attacks.Evaluation findings indicate that the following kinds of laws can reduce gun murder rates when they are enforced: prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons, extending sentences for robbery and assault when a gun is used, and restrictive licensing requirements for handgun ownership.

Edited February 1, 2011 by braca

[braca]

Drugo ... ja sam pokazao donoseci podatak da je 89' broj mrtvih od vatrenog oruzhja u USA bio toliki koliko pishe, da je u medjuvremenu donesen restriktivni zakon i da je broj istih smanjen za (chini mi se da pishe u onom dokumentu Bele Kuce) za 40% ... ne znam shta ti treba vishe da bi uvideo da restriktivniji zakon donosi manji broj mrtvih ...

A pogledaj tek ovo (pojacana kontrola uvedena 1995.), nesmrtne povrede oruzjem, pa je uzorak mnogo veci :

Nonfatal Firearm-Related CrimeSource: Bureau of Justice StatisticsNonfatal firearm-related crime has fallen significantly in recent years, from almost 1.3 million victims in 1994 to 477,040 victims in 2005.As a percentage of all violent incidents, nonfatal gun crime has fallen below 10 percent, from 11 percent in 1994 to 9 percent in 2005. These crimes include rape, sexual assault, robbery and aggravated assault.http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/glance/tables/firearmnonfataltab.cfm

Nonfatal firearm-related violent crimes, 1993-2009

Nonfatal firearm incidents and victims, 1993-2009
Year  Firearm incidents	Firearm victims	Firearm crime rate  	Firearm crimes as a percent of all violent incidents
                                       (Victims per 1,000 residents)
1993 	1,054,820 	1,248,250 	5.9 	  	11 	%
1994	1,060,800 	1,286,860 	6.0 	  	11 	 
1995 	902,680 	1,050,900 	4.9 	  	10 	 
1996 	845,220 	989,930 	4.6 	  	10 	 
1997 	680,900 	795,560 	3.6 	  	9 	 
1998 	557,200 	670,480 	3.0 	  	8 	 
1999 	457,150 	562,870 	2.5 	  	7 	 
2000 	428,670 	533,470 	2.4 	  	7 	 
2001 	467,880 	524,030 	2.3 	  	9 	 
2002 	353,880 	430,930 	1.9 	  	7 	 
2003 	366,840 	449,150 	1.9 	  	7 	 
2004 	280,890		331,630		1.4	  	6 	 
2005 	416,940 	474,110 	1.9 	  	9 	 
2006* 	  	  	  	  	  	 
2007 	348,910 	394,580 	1.6 	  	7 	 
2008 	303,880 	343,550 	1.4 	  	7 	 
2009 	326,090 	352,810 	1.4 	  	8 	 

Source: Criminal Victimization, 2009.

*Victimization rate trends excludes NCVS estimates for 2006 because of methodological inconsistencies between the data for that year and the data for other years. Changes to the NCVS and their impact upon the survey's estimates in 2006 are discussed in the Criminal Victimization, 2006 Technical Notes.

Source: National Crime Victimization Survey

[mandingo]

Gun law u New Hampshire-u

No license is required to openly carry a firearm while on foot, but carry of a loaded pistol or revolver in a motor vehicle, openly or concealed, does require a license. Note that the NH license is issued for carry of a "pistol or revolver," and is not a license to carry "weapons" as exists in some other states. The NH license is issued by the local police dept at a cost of $10 for residents, and by the NH State Police at a cost of $100 for non-residents (changed from $20 on July 1, 2009). The term of issue of the license is four years for non-residents, and at least four years for residents.[199] Turn around time is generally 1 – 2 weeks, with 14 days being the maximum time allowed by law.New Hampshire has no laws restricting the age at which a person may possess and carry unconcealed firearms

Gun homicides per 100.000 -> 0.43 ili ukupno 6. Gun laws u Maryland-u

The Constitution of Maryland contains no provision protecting the right to keep and bear arms. The State preempts some local firearm regulations, though local governments may regulate firearms with respect to minors and areas of public assembly. Annapolis, Anne Arundel County, Montgomery County, Gaithersburg, and Baltimore are known to have local firearm regulations.The Maryland State Police maintain a registry of "regulated firearms" that are allowed to be sold within the state. Dealers must forward the manufacturer-included shell casing in its sealed container to the Department of State Police Crime Laboratory upon sale, rental, or transfer of a "regulated firearm" for inclusion in their ballistics database, known as the Integrated Ballistics Identification System (IBIS).[138][139]Detachable magazines capable of holding more than 20 rounds may not be manufactured or sold, though they may be possessed. Certain pistols are banned and are defined as "assault pistols." Any of the "assault pistols" on the list are lawful to possess only if they were registered prior to August 1, 1994.[10] Only handguns on the official handgun roster may be sold in the state. Private sales of "regulated firearms," which includes handguns, are prohibited. A person must obtain a safety training certificate prior to purchasing "regulated firearms" and present that certificate prior to each purchase. With some limited exceptions, only one "regulated firearm" may be purchased in any 30-day period. Handguns manufactured on or before December 31, 2002 must be sold or transferred with an external safety lock. Handguns manufactured after December 31, 2002 may only be sold or transferred if they have an internal mechanical safety device.[138][139]Firearms are prohibited from certain places, including schools and demonstrations. Carrying a handgun, whether openly or concealed, is prohibited unless one has a permit to carry a handgun or is on their own property or their own place of business. The Maryland State Police may issue a permit to carry a handgun at their discretion and based on an investigation.

Gun homicides per 100.000 -> 6.95 ili godisnje oko 400 Edited February 1, 2011 by mandingo

[braca]

Gun law u New Hampshire-uGun homicides per 100.000 -> 0.43 ili ukupno 6.

Population Ranked 42nd in the US- Total 1,316,470 (2010 census)[1] 1,235,786 (2000)- Density 146.8/sq mi (56.68/km2) Ranked 20th in the US

Gun laws u Maryland-u Gun homicides per 100.000 -> 6.95 ili godisnje oko 400

Population Ranked 19th in the US- Total 5,773,552 (2010) [3] 5,296,486 (2000)- Density 541.9/sq mi (209.2/km2) Ranked 5th in the US

U Marylandu se nalazi Baltimore, jedna od crnih tacaka sto se tice gangova. Restriktivni zakoni su doneti kao posledica tj pokusaj da se obuzda kriminal. I naravno, od kad su doneti, stope se smanjuju.Nice try.

[cedo]

U Marylandu se nalazi Baltimore, jedna od crnih tacaka sto se tice gangova. Restriktivni zakoni su doneti kao posledica tj pokusaj da se obuzda kriminal. I naravno, od kad su doneti, stope se smanjuju.Nice try.

Fino :)edit ... ne znam kako nije jasno da je drugi amandman relikt od pre 200+ godina ... vreme lovaca, ali onih koji su lovili da bi jeli, za razliku od ovih koji se bave sportskim lovomm, a Anduril ih u odgovoru tebi opravdao klanjem svinja tovljenih za prehranu ljudi, kao da je zhivotinja riba, pa ce se skinuti udica/izvaditi metak i pustiti nazad. Edited February 1, 2011 by cedo

[braca]

Fino :)edit ... ne znam kako nije jasno da je drugi amandman relikt od pre 200+ godina ... vreme lovaca, ali onih koji su lovili da bi jeli, za razliku od ovih koji se bave sportskim lovomm, a Anduril ih u odgovoru tebi opravdao klanjem svinja tovljenih za prehranu ljudi, kao da je zhivotinja riba, pa ce se skinuti udica/izvaditi metak i pustiti nazad.

pominjao se i sport.. ne vidim bas sta ima sportsko pucati u metu u obliku coveka... cudi me da nemaju i kategoriju "sportsko klanje"... Edited February 1, 2011 by braca

[Aion]

pominjao se i sport.. ne vidim bas sta ima sportsko pucati u metu u obliku coveka...

Zasto ne bi to bilo sport? U cemu je to gorem, recimo od boksa, da ne pominjem ove moderne borilacke sportove (k1, MMA)?