slobodan pristup naoružanju

[braca]

Mozda je bolje onda pricati o nekoj manje kontroverznom temom, kao sto je marihuana, na primer.

E tu sam potpuni liberal

[cedo]

Evo, uporedjujem sa Francuskom, Slovenijom i Belgijom. I?Verujem da restriktivniji zakoni o naoruzanju smanjuju broj ubistava vatrenim oruzjem sto je i logicno ali recimo u Australiji cini mi se su posmatrali dalje povecanje broja samoubistava drugim metodama i pored povecanih restrikcija. Dakle, tipican primer uklanjanja simptoma a ignorisanje uzroka.

Pa nishta ... evo slika, ako mozhe pomoci ... vidi te dve tachkice shto se izdvajaju Onda vidi sve tachkice, probaj povuci pravu linijuI zakljuchi da su x i y gotovo pravo proporcionalni ... malo zezaju Novi Seland i Amerika, al to je valjda urbanizam u pitanju

[Anduril]

.......

Tinejdzerske bande, droga, mnogo ilegalnog naoruzanja. Iste ove brojke ne vaze za Svajcarsku ili Cesku. Kako to? Kako to izgleda u Brazilu/Meksiku a kakvi su tamo zakoni? Argumenti se jednostavno ne slazu. You are barking at the wrong tree, my friend. @ mandigoOcigledno si u pravu. Jos ako im ovde napisem da se zalazem za legalizaciju svih droga, razapece me. Koga briga za sve mrtve koji idu na racun raznih ratova protiv droge i uopste kriminaliteta. Upravo vecina ove dece koju Braca citira gine u takvim slucajevima.@ CedoOpet, vazan je totalni broj samoubistava a ne metod samoubistva. Sta ti vredi da uneses restrikciju kad ce sutra vise ljudi da se obesi ili otruje? Edited January 31, 2011 by Anduril

[braca]

Tinejdzerske bande, droga, mnogo ilegalnog naoruzanja. Iste ove brojke ne vaze za Svajcarsku ili Cesku. Kako to? Kako to izgleda u Brazilu/Meksiku a kakvi su tamo zakoni? Argumenti se jednostavno ne slazu. You are barking at the wrong tree, my friend.

Da ponovim osnovno, nisi izgleda dobro procitao :# The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined.# American kids are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die from a firearm accident than children in 25 other industrialized countries combined.

Ocigledno si u pravu. Jos ako im ovde napisem da se zalazem za legalizaciju svih droga, razapece me. Koga briga za sve mrtve koji idu na racun raznih ratova protiv droge i uopste kriminaliteta. Upravo vecina ove dece koju Braca citira gine u takvim slucajevima.

To je vec druga tema, al i ja sam za legalizaciju svih droga.

[cedo]

@ CedoOpet, vazan je totalni broj samoubistava a ne metod samoubistva. Sta ti vredi da uneses restrikciju kad ce sutra vise ljudi da se obesi ili otruje?

E jbg sad :) ... drugo si do malopre prichao ... ja sam ti samo pokushao pokazati zashto je dobro ne imati oruzhje u kuci ... ne samo ovime u vezi samoubistva.Probaj ti, za promenu pokazati ... da je oruzhje korisno ... tj da je broj korisnih upotreba veci od onih gde se ono okrene protivu posedovaoca. Eto, ne morash dokazivati da je uputno chuvati oruzhje kuci zato shto ce se drzhava okrenuti protivu svojih gradjana ... vec chisto kao prevencija protivu razbojnishtava, i tako nekih praktichnih stvari. Mozhda i promenim mishljenje. Edited January 31, 2011 by cedo

[Anduril]

E jbg sad :) ... drugo si do malopre prichao ... ja sam ti samo pokushao pokazati zashto je dobro ne imati oruzhje u kuci ... ne samo ovime u vezi samoubistva.Probaj ti, za promenu pokazati ... da je oruzhje korisno ... tj da je broj korisnih upotreba veci od onih gde se ono okrene protivu posedovaoca. Eto, ne morash dokazivati da je uputno chuvati oruzhje kuci zato shto ce se drzhava okrenuti protivu svojih gradjana ... vec chisto kao prevencija protivu razbojnishtava, i tako nekih praktichnih stvari. Mozhda i promenim mishljenje.

Gledao sam neke studije koje su pokusavale dokazati i jedno i drugo, mislim, ranije sam bio kao i ti za vece restrikcije, medjutim, moj konacni zakljucak je bio da restrikcije po tom pitanju ne igraju neku veliku ulogu a da su drugi faktori tu mnogo vazniji. Eno dole neki zanimljivi podaci:

Gun Control: Myths and Realitiesby David LampoThe number of well-publicized public shootings during the past few years, especially the tragedy at Columbine High School, has re-energized the gun control movement. As a show of strength, a coalition of gun control groups has organized a "Million Mom March" to be held in Washington, D.C. on Mother's Day, an event designed to stir up emotions rather than promote rational thought. And when one looks at the facts about gun control, it's easy to see why the anti-gun lobby relies on emotion rather than logic to make its case.Think you know the facts about gun control? If your only source of information is the mainstream media, what you think you know may not be correct. Take the quiz below and test your knowledge.1. Thousands of children die annually in gun accidents.False. Gun accidents involving children are actually at record lows, although you wouldn't know it from listening to the mainstream media. In 1997, the last year for which data are available, only 142 children under 15 years of age died in gun accidents, and the total number of gun-related deaths for this age group was 642. More children die each year in accidents involving bikes, space heaters or drownings. The often repeated claim that 12 children per day die from gun violence includes "children" up to 20 years of age, the great majority of whom are young adult males who die in gang-related violence.2. Gun shows are responsible for a large number of firearms falling into the hands of criminals.False. Contrary to President Clinton's claims, there is no "gun show loophole." All commercial arms dealers at gun shows must run background checks, and the only people exempt from them are the small number of non-commercial sellers. According to the U.S. Department of Justice, at most 2 percent of guns used by criminals are purchased at gun shows, and most of those were purchased legally by people who passed background checks.3. The tragedy at Columbine High School a year ago illustrates the deficiencies of current gun control laws.False. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold violated close to 20 firearms laws in amassing their cache of weapons (not to mention the law against murder), so it seems rather dubious to argue that additional laws might have prevented this tragedy. The two shotguns and rifle used by Harris and Klebold were purchased by a girlfriend who would have passed a background check, and the TEC-9 handgun used by them was already illegal.4. States that allow registered citizens to carry concealed weapons have lower crime rates than those that don't.True. The 31 states that have "shall issue" laws allowing private citizens to carry concealed weapons have, on average, a 24 percent lower violent crime rate, a 19 percent lower murder rate and a 39 percent lower robbery rate than states that forbid concealed weapons. In fact, the nine states with the lowest violent crime rates are all right-to-carry states. Remarkably, guns are used for self-defense more than 2 million times a year, three to five times the estimated number of violent crimes committed with guns.5. Waiting periods lower crime rates.False. Numerous studies have been conducted on the effects of waiting periods, both before and after the federal Brady bill was passed in 1993. Those studies consistently show that there is no correlation between waiting periods and murder or robbery rates. Florida State University professor Gary Kleck analyzed data from every U.S. city with a population over 100,000 and found that waiting periods had no statistically significant effect. Even University of Maryland anti-gun researcher David McDowell found that "waiting periods have no influence on either gun homicides or gun suicides."6. Lower murder rates in foreign countries prove that gun control works.False. This is one of the favorite arguments of gun control proponents, and yet the facts show that there is simply no correlation between gun control laws and murder or suicide rates across a wide spectrum of nations and cultures. In Israel and Switzerland, for example, a license to possess guns is available on demand to every law-abiding adult, and guns are easily obtainable in both nations. Both countries also allow widespread carrying of concealed firearms, and yet, admits Dr. Arthur Kellerman, one of the foremost medical advocates of gun control, Switzerland and Israel "have rates of homicide that are low despite rates of home firearm ownership that are at least as high as those in the United States." A comparison of crime rates within Europe reveals no correlation between access to guns and crime.The basic premise of the gun control movement, that easy access to guns causes higher crime, is contradicted by the facts, by history and by reason. Let's hope more people are catching on.

[mandingo]

To je vec druga tema, al i ja sam za legalizaciju svih droga.

Zasto? Ako nije problem da objasnis.

[dillinger]

Zasto? Ako nije problem da objasnis.

Ako dozvolite....svačije je pravo da radi sa svojim telom šta mu volja, nema niko pravo da mu zabrani fiksanje, rad i privređivanje pod dejstvom opijata ili ne daj bože provalu u banku da si pribavi još belog, žutog, smeđeg. Uredno i legalno, dabome, plaćenog poreza je l'. Svi na dobitku, i država i pojedinac. A kažu da je već i dokazano delotvorna u mediciniske svrhe <_< Edited January 31, 2011 by dillinger

[braca]

Ako dozvolite....svačije je pravo da radi sa svojim telom šta mu volja, nema niko pravo da mu zabrani fiksanje, rad i privređivanje pod dejstvom opijata ili ne daj bože provalu u banku da si pribavi još belog, žutog, smeđeg. Uredno i legalno, dabome, plaćenog poreza je l'. Svi na dobitku, i država i pojedinac. A kažu da je već i dokazano delotvorna u mediciniske svrhe <_<

Ha ha, al smo vickastiA tako si dobro poceo : niko nema pravo da mi zabrani da radim sta hocu sa svojim telom, sve dok to nikog drugog ne ugrozava. Kao sto ne idemo (bar pristojan svet) na posao pijani, tako ne bi ni naduvani. Ili bi za to snosili posledice, zakoni vec postoje kad je alkohol u pitanju, samo primeniti isti. Do provale u banku ne bi moralo da se dolazi, kao sto se ni danas ne provaljuje u banku da se nabavi cuga (ponovo, 99% pristojnog sveta bar to ne radi, sigurno ima izuzetaka i u ovome).

Aspirin vs. Marijuana When Bayer introduced aspirin in 1899, cannabis was America’s number one painkiller. Until marijuana prohibition began in 1937, the US Pharmacopoeia listed cannabis as the primary medicine for over 100 diseases. Cannabis was such an effective analgesic that the American Medical Association (AMA) argued against prohibition on behalf of medical progress. Since the herb is extremely potent and essentially non-toxic, the AMA considered it a potential wonder drug. Instead, the invention of aspirin gave birth to the modern pharmaceutical industry and Americans switched away from cannabis in the name of “progress.” But was it really progress? There can be no doubt that aspirin has a long history as the drug of choice for the self-treatment of migraines, arthritis, and other chronic pain. It is cheap and effective. But is it as safe as cannabis? History: Marijuana has been used for over 5,000 years. No one has ever overdosed on marijuana. Aspirin has been used for 108 years. Approximately 500 people die every year by taking aspirin The Law: Marijuana is a Schedule 1 drug, meaning the US government believes it is extremely dangerous, highly addictive, and of no medical value. Aspirin is available for pennies and can be purchased by children at any drug, grocery, or convenience store. Often they are just handed out free by people with no medical education. Marijuana side effects and dangers: The dangers of marijuana include possible respiratory problems caused by the deposition of burnt plant material on the lungs. This danger can be eliminated with alternate forms of consumption such as eating or vaporizing the medicine. For two to four hours, marijuana causes short-term memory loss, a slight reduction in reaction time, and a reduction in cognitive ability. (It makes you stupid for a little while.)These conditions DO NOT persist after the herb wears off. Hunger Paranoia Depression Laughter Introspection Creative Impulse Euphoria Tiredness Forgetfulness Aspirin side effects and dangers: When taken with alcohol, aspirin can cause stomach bleeding. Reye Syndrome in children: fat begins to develop around the liver and other organs of the child, eventually putting severe pressure on the brain. Death is common within a few days. People with hemophilia can die. People with hyperthyroidism suffer elevated T4 levels. Stomach problems include dyspepsia, heartburn, upset stomach, stomach ulcers with gross bleeding, and internal bleeding leading to anemia. Dizziness, ringing in the ears, hearing loss, vertigo, vision disturbances, and headaches. Heavy sweating Irreversible liver damage Inflamation and gradual destruction of the kidneys Nausea and vomiting Abdominal pain Lethargy Hyperthermia Dyspepsia: a gnawing or burning stomach pain accompanied by bloating, heartburn, nausea, vomiting and burping. Tachypnea: Abnormally fast breathing Respiratory Alkalosis: a condition where the amount of carbon dioxide found in the blood drops to a level below normal range brought on by abnormally fast breathing. Cerebral Edema: Water accumulates on the brain. Symptoms include headaches, decreased level of consciousness, loss of eyesight, hallucinations, psychotic behavior, memory loss and coma. If left untreated, it can lead to death. Hallucinations, confusion, and seizure. Prolonged bleeding after operations or post-trauma for up to 10 days after last aspirin. Aspirin can interact with some other drugs, such as diabetes medication. Aspirin changes the way the body handles these drugs and can lead to a drug overdose and death. If you think that cannabis is actually safer than aspirin, you are not alone. In October 2000, Dr. Leslie Iversen of the Oxford University Department of Pharmacology said the same thing. In her book, ‘The Science of Marijuana,’ Dr. Iversen presents the scientific evidence that cannabis is, by-and-large, a safe drug. Dr. Iversen found cannabis had “an impressive record” when compared to tobacco, alcohol, or even aspirin. “Tetrahydrocannabinol is a very safe drug,” she said. “Even such apparently innocuous medicines as aspirin and related steroidal anti-inflammatory compunds are not safe.” So if safety is your concern, cannabis is clearly a much better choice than aspirin. If you eat it or vaporize it, it just might be the safest painkiller the world has ever known.

Edited January 31, 2011 by braca

[Venom]

Prilicno sam siguran da je mandingo hteo nesto drugo da pita.

[braca]

Zasto? Ako nije problem da objasnis.

Pored ovog sto sam vec naveo, smatram da zabrana donosi daleko vecu stetu drustvu od koristi. Milijarde i milijarde se obrcu, sto u rukama mafije, sto u beskonacnom "ratu protiv droge", a da je rezultat vise nego porazan.

[braca]

Prilicno sam siguran da je mandingo hteo nesto drugo da pita.

A sta je hteo da pita? Da u jednom slucaju drzava moze da mi se mesa u zivot, a u drugom ne moze, i da je to kao kontradikcija? Jesi to hteo da cujes?

[braca]

Eno dole neki zanimljivi podaci:

zanimljivi podaci? ovaj NRA pamflet? ti to ozbiljno mislis?

[mandingo]

A sta je hteo da pita? Da u jednom slucaju drzava moze da mi se mesa u zivot, a u drugom ne moze, i da je to kao kontradikcija? Jesi to hteo da cujes?

Pa.... da. :D Sve sto si naveo kao razlog za legalizaciju droga je, po meni, tacno i ispracvno. Zato i trubim ako individulnih prava i odgovornosti.

[Shan Jan]

Objasnio Praksa uvek >> teoriju tako da oruzoljubi...A stos tice teorije filozofiranja na tu temu meni prvo sto pada na pamet da mi u kucu uleti neko sa utokom jeste da niposto ne bih voleo da u svojim rukama i ja imam utoku. Kapiram da nema leba da bih pucao u njega prvi a isto tako kapiram da bi me krimos headovao istog trenutka kad vidi pretnju.Svako svrgavanje diktatora ide nekim vidom gradjanske neposlusnosti. Oruzana sila my ass. Da se neki gradjani (svi naravno nikad nece jer nema svako srce junacko) organizuju i krenu u hajduciju moglo bi tako lako da se ispinuje i pretvori u stoletnji gradjanski ratniskog intenziteta. Naravno drzava sa cisto vojnicke strane je nepobediva.@anduril:

The 31 states that have "shall issue" laws allowing private citizens to carry concealed weapons have, on average, a 24 percent lower violent crime rate, a 19 percent lower murder rate and a 39 percent lower robbery rate than states that forbid concealed weapons. In fact, the nine states with the lowest violent crime rates are all right-to-carry states. Remarkably, guns are used for self-defense more than 2 million times a year, three to five times the estimated number of violent crimes committed with guns.

Hm znam da ces ti reci da je ovo najreprezentativnije jer se desava u istoj zemlji (nema velikih kulturno-istorijskih razlika) ali upravo zato za mene nije reprezentativno. Ako je moguce legalno nabaviti rucni top u jednoj saveznoj drzavi i ako znas da u susednoj householdersi smeju da koriste samo perorez u odbrani gde ces da pljackas?

In Israel and Switzerland, for example, a license to possess guns is available on demand to every law-abiding adult, and guns are easily obtainable in both nations. Both countries also allow widespread carrying of concealed firearms, and yet, admits Dr. Arthur Kellerman, one of the foremost medical advocates of gun control, Switzerland and Israel "have rates of homicide that are low despite rates of home firearm ownership that are at least as high as those in the United States." A comparison of crime rates within Europe reveals no correlation between access to guns and crime.

Izrael je specificna zemlja iz milion razloga a jedan od njih je sto je ona premanentno u prakticnom ratnom stanju. Cenim da u takvim okolnostima su ljudi itekako obuceni i spremni da koriste oruzje, za razliku od ladovina ala svajcarska. A za svajcarsku... nemam argumenata osim da im duva paja zbog visokog standarda mozda :D No sustina je da to jesu dve jako atipicne zemlje. Da se uporede zemlje poput francuske, engleske i spanije pa da vidimo, ovako malo mi je neuniverzalan primer.apropo viskogo standarda - siguran sam da se moze napraviti slicna korespodencija izmedju kriminala i socijalne pravde po zemljama, cak i bezobzira na visinu standarda. Edited January 31, 2011 by Shan Jan