Grčka - enormni dug, protesti oko mera štednje

[Muwan]

Mozda nisi primetio ali bankarsko restruktuiranje Evrozone kao i na globalnom nivou je uveliko u toku. Zato sada mogu da puste Grcku niz vodu a ranije nisu mogli. Likovi koji su davali te pare Grckoj su odavno u penziji i jos uvek ih slave kao evropske ujedinitelje i solidarce.

 

Drugo, restruktuiranje prezaduzenog grckog preduzeca je takodje pocelo a pri tome se uvek pocinje od sece troskova, itd. Problem je nastao zato sto ovo preduzece odbija da se dalje restruktuira da bi moglo da poveca ponudu i sto je ponosno na svoje dugove, krizu i svoj way of life. Preduzece se saginjati nece.

 

Zato sada sledi druga opcija - totalni bankrot preduzeca uz humanitarnu/socijalnu pomoc za zaposlene.

Zelenaska paralela ti je malo neumesna jer zelenasi obicno ne daju vise para ako im nisi vratio predhodne.

 

Pa nije baš tada problem nastao. Možda je tu dostigao tačku usijanja ali nastao je kada je banka™ preduzeću dala pare za koje je istog trenutka odlično znala da su bačene kroz prozor i nikada neće biti vraćene. Tu je geneza problema. Sad banka ne želi da otpiše nenaplativ dug jer se boji čitave planine sličnih dugova koji je čekaju u drugim preduzećima koja su obilato čašćavali njeni bankari™ koji i dalje uživaju u svojim suludim bonusima i benefitima.

 

Totalni bankrot preduzeća je sasvim OK u ovakvoj situaciji. Višegodišnje mrcvarenje zaposlenih kako bi se pokrpile brljotine pijanih bankara i direktora nije OK i prilično je blisko uličnom zelenaštvu.

[Prospero]

Dug je sasvim naplativ u datim okolnostima  - zavisnost od EG i ECB za veće svote novca a raskačenost ili bolje rečeno zaštićenost od regularnog tržišta kapitala koje bi odvalilo Grke od kamata.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Prospero

[Prospero]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9cc85638-1e75-11e5-ab0f-6bb9974f25d0.html#ixzz3eY9fODSf

 

Greece’s future hangs on 72 words

 

Kerin Hope in Athens

 

Giorgos Alavanos was asked on Monday during a coffee break with co-workers to explain the cumbersome 72-word question that Greeks must answer with a “yes” or “no” vote in next Sunday’s referendum.

“I had to give up,” said the 46-year-old chief accountant at an Athens bakery chain. “Who outside the banking sector knows what a ‘debt sustainability analysis’ is — let alone can say if it should be accepted?”

Should the draft agreement submitted by the EC, ECB, IMF to the eurogroup on June 25, which consists of two parts that make up their full proposal, be accepted? The first document is titled ‘Reforms for the completion of the current programme and beyond’ and the second, ‘Preliminary debt sustainability analysis’

 

The wording of the referendum may be an early victory for Greece’s prime minister, Alexis Tsipras, who on Friday urged his citizens to vote “no” after walking out of bailout talks with Greece’s creditors. In fairly technical language, Greeks will be asked whether or not to accept the draft agreement submitted by their hated creditors. But behind opaque references to “the current programme” and the “debt sustainability analysis” lies a stark, simple choice, according to Mr Tsipras’ opponents. “We want to stay in Europe, and let’s not be ridiculous: this is what the referendum is about,” Giorgos Kaminis, who served as Greece’s ombudsman before he entered politics, told a television interviewer on Sunday.

 

Just organising the country’s first referendum since voters abolished the monarchy by an overwhelming majority in December 1974 poses daunting practical problems. There are fears, for example, there may not be enough time to print almost 16m ballot papers and 8m envelopes, let alone distribute them to remote islands and mountain villages. Nikos Voutsis, the interior minister, rushed out instructions on Monday to repeat the same procedures used in preparing the January 25 general election that brought Syriza to power but this time “with the utmost speed”. The justice ministry announced that courts across the country would shut down on Tuesday for one week, a move that would allow several thousand judicial officials to be drafted as volunteers to oversee the vote.

But with only five days of campaigning available, the “yes” camp, which unites opposition pro-European political parties, the Greek business community and local government leaders, faces a huge challenge to get its message across. “This has to be a campaign to get civil society involved, it’s up to them just as much as the pro-Europe politicians to tell people this is actually a vote about staying in the euro,” said a businessman involved in the fledgling “yes” movement.

 

The percentage of Greeks who want to stay in the euro has declined from more than 80 per cent before the crisis erupted in 2010 but remains constant at around 65 per cent, according to opinion polls. Unusually, the leaders of the main opposition centre-right New Democracy party and the small PanHellenic Socialist Movement (Pasok), partners in a coalition government that implemented tough reforms in 2012 and 2013, have agreed to take a back seat to enhance the chances of a “yes” vote prevailing. Both parties lack credibility with voters, with opinion polls showing they lag more than 15 points behind Mr Tsipras’ Syriza party in spite of Greece’s dire economic straits. One reason is that New Democracy and Pasok are blamed by most Greeks for causing the crisis in the first place, by cementing corrupt practices and ignoring calls from the EU and IMF to implement structural economic reforms as they alternated in power for more than 40 years.

 

Instead the mayors of Athens and Thessaloniki, Giorgos Kaminis and Yiannis Boutaris, both independents, are stepping forward. The two mayors are drafting a group of 50 well-known Greek personalities and opinion-makers, among them other mayors, academics, artists and prominent economists. “Time is very short, but we’ll do what we can. This issue [Greek membership of the euro] needs to be cleared up,” said Mr Boutaris, a former businessman. The “yes” initiative’s mission is to explain to ordinary Greeks the likely consequences of a Grexit — from high inflation and shortages of food and fuel if a new currency were adopted, to potentially violent social unrest as companies collapsed and unemployment soared.

 

Business community organisations, which normally avoid taking a political position, are also expected to weigh in with public statements and open discussions with members.

“Given that the mainstream of Greek society supports participating in European institutions and the importance of this referendum, now is the moment for civil society representatives to make their presence felt,” said George Pagoulatos, an economics professor at Athens business university.

But they will have to do so with little time — and against the determined opposition of a populist premier who has proved adept at rallying public opinion.

On Sunday night, shortly after agreeing to impose bank closures and draconian capital controls, the government then tweeted accusations that European authorities were using financial pressure to “stifle the will of the Greek people”.

 

[Muwan]

320 milijardi evra naplativo od onakve ekonomije? Možda, ako svi zajedno pređu na tri obroka nedeljno a prethodno fizički eliminišu penzionere i nezaposlene.

[MancMellow]

Pa neće ljudi da zavise od vizionara, veća je šansa da su vizionari budale i štetočine nego pozitivci. Sistem je svesno napravljen da bude depersonalizovan, sa prihvatanjem negativnih posledica koje to nosi.

 

pazi, licno misljenje, ne samo u vezi ove krize, nego i inace - bez vizionara se stvarno moze, cak je cesto i pozeljno, ali bez vizije - tesko. Ja tu vidim glavni problem. 

[MancMellow]

Zapravo, na svim seminarima koje sam slušala u kontekstu grčke krize, uvek je naglašavan credibility.

 

Evo, Antonio ukratko opisuje Sirizin problem, a to je da je jedini način da kreditorima signalizira kredibilnost u potpunoj suprotnosti sa platformom po osnovu koje je izabrana. http://knowledge.insead.edu/blog/insead-blog/lack-of-trust-is-preventing-a-long-term-greek-solution-4117

 

S druge strane, zanimalo me šta kažu veliki grčki ekonomisti koji imaju i verovatno informacionu prednost u odnosu na nas i odgovor je da treba prihvatiti deal i to deal koji podrazumeva i investiranje u rast, što jeste Varufakisova glavna tačka. http://www.cnbc.com/id/102795653

Interesantno je i da je Nikos Vetas medju potpisnicina, a on je the adresa Evropskoj komisiji kada imaju velike anti-trust slučaje. Ne mogu reći da je insajder, ali nije EU hejter svakako.

 

Ja želim da EU opstane, da Grčka bude u njoj, da se ide ka većoj unifikaciji, prvenstveno pomoću zajedničke vojske, pa dalje ka zajedničkoj fiskalnoj politici.

 

+1

[vememah]

Grčka: hoćemo instant treći bailout

[Muwan]

pazi, licno misljenje, ne samo u vezi ove krize, nego i inace - bez vizionara se stvarno moze, cak je cesto i pozeljno, ali bez vizije - tesko. Ja tu vidim glavni problem. 

 

Ali odakle će vizija da dođe ako sistemom upravljaju birokrate?

[Budja]

Sto se polova tice i kampanje tice, izgleda da kampanju nece voditi opozicija vec tajkuni.

 

Edit: Kolega forumas je vec postavio clanak.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Budja

[vememah]

Penzioneri iz samostalnih delatnosti sutra dobijaju samo pola penzije jer fond nije prikupio dovoljno sredstava:

http://www.tovima.gr/en/article/?aid=718148

[MancMellow]

Ali odakle će vizija da dođe ako sistemom upravljaju birokrate?

 

Birokratsko upravljanje EU-om nije pitanje neke unapred smišljenje zavere nego je direktna, i logična, posledica velikog manjka demokratske legitimacije u samom centru tvorevine. 

 

Velike reči su izrečene nehotice (mislim, nehotice su velike) tokom ove krize. Prvo je Schäuble rekao da "izbori ništa ne menjaju", a onda je pre neki dan Dijsselbloem rekao kako je Eurogrupa "ad hoc" telo. Obe izjave mogu da budu savršeno tačne, ali prva nepogrešivo ukazuje na ovo što sam gore napisao, a drugo svedoči o opasoj institucionalnoj nedovršenosti i Evrozone i EU. Jer, iskreno, da li bilo kome zvuči logično da se ovakva jedna kriza, po priznanju samog Gabriela najveća od 1957. godine institucinalno rešava na nivou ministara finansija? 

 

Birokratija je, generalno, laka meta, suštinski u njenom postojanju nema ničeg lošeg, međutim pitanje koju ideju ona sprovodi. 

Edited June 30, 2015 by MancMellow

[Budja]

Birokratsko upravljanje EU-om nije pitanje neke unapred smišljenje zavere nego je direktna, i logična, posledica velikog manjka demokratske legitimacije u samom centru tvorevine. 

 

Velike reči su izrečene nehotice (mislim, nehotice su velike) tokom ove krize. Prvo je Schäuble rekao da "izbori ništa ne menjaju", a onda je pre neki dan Dijsselbloem rekao kako je Eurogrupa "ad hoc" telo. Obe izjave mogu da budu savršeno tačne, ali prva nepogrešivo ukazuje na ovo što sam gore napisao, a drugo svedoči o opasoj institucionalnoj nedovršenosti i Evrozone i EU. Jer, iskreno, da li bilo kome zvuči logično da se ovakva jedna kriza, po priznanju samog Gabriela najveća od 1957. godine institucinalno rešava na nivou ministara finansija? 

 

Birokratija je, generalno, laka meta, suštinski u njenom postojanju nema ničeg lošeg, međutim pitanje koju ideju ona sprovodi. 

 

Kao i svaka birokratija bez vizije, ideju sopstvene vece vlasti.

Yes Minister primer.

[aram]

Grčka - radikalizacijom demokracije protiv tehnokratizacije ekonomije

[MancMellow]

Kao i svaka birokratija bez vizije, ideju sopstvene vece vlasti.

Yes Minister primer.

 

Pa da, verovatno

[vememah]

Evrogrupa telefonski u 19.

 

Pisamce Ciprasa Dajselblumu:

Edited June 30, 2015 by vememah