Grčka - enormni dug, protesti oko mera štednje

[koksy]

Sve najbolje ako mene pitaš.

 

Treba imati u vidu da ova generacija Grka (barem oni siromašniji) već sada plaća grehe prethodnih generacija. Nije tamo baš onako kao što piše FAZ, da grčke lenčuge kuliraju na plažama i krckaju nemačke novce. Oni su već pet godina u teškoj buli kojoj se ne nazire kraj.

 

Dalje, EU nosi svoj deo krivice jer je bila tragično loš bankar. Nisu njih Grci džeparili da ovi ne primete nego su svi odlično znali šta se dešava i da će sve te silne pare biti vraćene na sveti nikad. Ali to je tada bila neka daleka budućnost o kojoj će brinuti neko drugi. Evo, budućnost je stigla ali ako ćemo da kopamo po prošlosti onda ima dosta toga da se izvuče i o EU a ne samo o Grčkoj.

 

Mislim, EU kao poverilac uopšte nema mnogo izbora. Ona može da se ponaša kao legalni poverilac (banka), što znači da otpiše nenaplativ dug, otpusti kompletan menadžment, restruktuira se i ubuduće pazi kome i kako pozajmljuje pare. Ili može da se ponaša kao zelenaš sa ulice, što znači da zarad reputacije biznisa pošalje ekipu da ubiju dužnika koji nema da plati. To im je što im je, sve drugo je presipanje iz šupljeg u prazno što rade već pet godina sa vidljivo nikakvim rezultatima.

 

+1

 

nisam baš najbolje upućen ali mene ovaj slučaj drži u uverenju da savremene administracije (tu mi pada na pamet recimo situacija u Nju Orleansu nakon Katrine), funkcionišu po principu da za njihovog vakta ništa strašno ne može da se desi a ako se, eto, i desi, onda će se to već rešiti samo od sebe. tek neznatno od ove matrice odstupili su Japanci nakon katastrofe u nuklearki. 

birokratija je podgojeno, krmeljavo zlo. 

[Budja]

 

Mislim, EU kao poverilac uopšte nema mnogo izbora. Ona može da se ponaša kao legalni poverilac (banka), što znači da otpiše nenaplativ dug, otpusti kompletan menadžment, restruktuira se i ubuduće pazi kome i kako pozajmljuje pare. Ili može da se ponaša kao zelenaš sa ulice, što znači da zarad reputacije biznisa pošalje ekipu da ubiju dužnika koji nema da plati. To im je što im je, sve drugo je presipanje iz šupljeg u prazno što rade već pet godina sa vidljivo nikakvim rezultatima.

 

U,  ovaj deo je za minijature.

[MayDay]

Zapravo, na svim seminarima koje sam slušala u kontekstu grčke krize, uvek je naglašavan credibility.

 

Evo, Antonio ukratko opisuje Sirizin problem, a to je da je jedini način da kreditorima signalizira kredibilnost u potpunoj suprotnosti sa platformom po osnovu koje je izabrana. http://knowledge.insead.edu/blog/insead-blog/lack-of-trust-is-preventing-a-long-term-greek-solution-4117

 

S druge strane, zanimalo me šta kažu veliki grčki ekonomisti koji imaju i verovatno informacionu prednost u odnosu na nas i odgovor je da treba prihvatiti deal i to deal koji podrazumeva i investiranje u rast, što jeste Varufakisova glavna tačka. http://www.cnbc.com/id/102795653

Interesantno je i da je Nikos Vetas medju potpisnicina, a on je the adresa Evropskoj komisiji kada imaju velike anti-trust slučaje. Ne mogu reći da je insajder, ali nije EU hejter svakako.

 

Ja želim da EU opstane, da Grčka bude u njoj, da se ide ka većoj unifikaciji, prvenstveno pomoću zajedničke vojske, pa dalje ka zajedničkoj fiskalnoj politici.

[SleeperSleep]

To je jedna moguca interpretacija. 

 

Druga, za zemlje poput Srbije je nema vise para ako udjes u EU.

 

Magnetna privlacnost EU u smislu al se tamo lepo zivi nestaje.

to da para više nema nije skroz tačno.

 

nema ih koliko ih je do sad bilo.

 

za eu je ovo perfektna prilika za reformu. međutim, od te rabote nema ništa jer je i eu duboko korumpirana.

[vememah]

Za razliku od Potamija, ND i Siriza navodno imaju rezultate internih anketa koji pokazuju da Cipras gubi na referendumu.

Edited June 30, 2015 by vememah

[boshoku]

Ja želim da EU opstane, da Grčka bude u njoj, da se ide ka većoj unifikaciji, prvenstveno pomoću zajedničke vojske

neće to da može iz mnogo razloga...

[aram]

odgovor je da treba prihvatiti deal i to deal koji podrazumeva i investiranje u rast, što jeste Varufakisova glavna tačka.

ja ne videh da im je takav deal ikad ponudjen?

[bradilko]

 

 

za eu je ovo perfektna prilika za reformu. međutim, od te rabote nema ništa jer je i eu duboko korumpirana.

tesko do reformi kad tu nema politicara sa vizijom.to su debeloguze i bezmude birokrate koje se slihtaju krupnom kapitalu.da su takvi bili ocevi osnivaci ne bi bilo ni europske unije.ovi danas su bez ideala,glupani kojima ekonomisti vode politiku.najniza razina politicara

[Prospero]

Pa neće ljudi da zavise od vizionara, veća je šansa da su vizionari budale i štetočine nego pozitivci. Sistem je svesno napravljen da bude depersonalizovan, sa prihvatanjem negativnih posledica koje to nosi.

[vememah]

Medijska scena:

 

Meanwhile one thing working against the No campaign in the Greek referendum is the broad media support for the country accepting the terms on offer from its creditors. John Hooper reports from Athens:

    Television is overwhelmingly anti-Syriza. All the big, privately-owned channels – Alpha, ANT1, Mega, Star and Skai – lean towards accepting the lenders’ offer to secure Greece’s position in the euro zone.

    The exception is state-owned ERT -- unsurprisingly since it was put back on the air by the current government after being shut down as an economy measure in 2013.

    There was a pretty easy way this week of telling which way a Greek newspaper leaned in the debate – the alarm quotient in its coverage. “Pensions with tears” screamed the headline on Tuesday’s edition of centre-right Dimokratia over a story about how some beneficiaries had been unable to get their pensions after the imposition of capital controls on Sunday night. Ta Nea, EU-friendly and centre left, had “Payment suspensions throughout business: only cash for transactions.”

    But leafing through Avgi, the only major daily close to Syriza, you might think nothing much out of the ordinary was happening in Greece this week. The only concession to a move that has made headlines around the world was a story on its front page headlined: “Side-effects of capital controls under control.”

    With the conservative broadsheet, Kathimerini (http://www.ekathimerini.com/), centre-right Eleftheros Typos and centre-left Efimerida ton Syntakton also favouring a compromise , the rejectionists are heavily outgunned in the Greece’s lively and extensive press. Even Rizospastis, the official newspaper of the Communist Party of Greece (KKE), has an ambiguous stance.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jun/30/greek-debt-crisis-day-of-decision-for-tsipras#block-559287c3e4b0a9ccc5ace594

 

[Prospero]

German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble told lawmakers in Berlin that Greece would stay in the euro for the time being if Greek voters reject austerity in a referendum scheduled this week, according to three people present.

 

Schaeuble also said the European Central Bank would do what’s needed to protect the euro if Greeks voted against the bailout terms in the July 5 referendum, according to the people, all of whom participated in the closed-door meeting on Tuesday. They asked not to be identified, citing the private nature of the discussion.

The German Finance Ministry declined to comment.

"for the time being", tj nema automatskog "izbacivanja" odmah ujutru, što je naravno tačno.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Prospero

[bradilko]

to vodi barustini i neresavanju problema.dostigli smo 1 zadovoljavajuci nivo i dovoljno je odrzavanje postojeceg a novi izazovi se mnoze i mnoze.realisti i birokrate nece i ne znaju da se uhvate u kostac sa novim izazovima. na mnogim poljima eu gubi korak.bar mi se cini ko laiku

nisam mislio na revolucionare.pogresno se izrazavam, kao i obicno :)

[Muwan]

Vlasništvo nad medijima u Grčkoj je podjednako sramotno kao i u Turskoj. Sve sama tajkunsko-poslušnička glasila. To što oni ne podržavaju Syrizu nimalo ne znači da se grčkom narodu isplati da krene putem koji bi prebogati vlasnici medija priželjkivali.

[vememah]

Još jedno mišljenje da Siriza referendumom prebacuje odgovornost za svoj neuspeh zbog nerealne izborne platforme na građane. Grčka bira hoće li biti Portugal ili Srbija.

 

Syriza is asking Greece’s voters to endorse its own failure

Daniel Howden

The Greek government’s success was built on the lie that it could avert austerity – in the upcoming referendum, it seeks to evade all responsibility

There is a punchy but elegant Greek phrase that summarises the moment when delusion and deception are exposed: telos pia ta psemmata, the end of lies. You might have thought that point would have arrived on Sunday when it was announced that banks would not be opening the next morning. It did not. It will not arrive with the queues for petrol; or when Greek merchants refuse card payments; or even when supermarkets begin to run out of imported basics.

As I drove through the streets of Athens watching worried lines form at every cashpoint, radio bulletins were interrupted by commercial breaks offering cheerful suggestions on how to spend your summer euros. It felt like listening to a voicemail message from a dead relative.

This has been coming since the European elections of 2014. That was the moment when Greece’s conservative-led coalition – which had overseen an unpopular programme of financial aid conditional on spending cuts and reforms dictated by foreign lenders – was routed by populists of the hard left. The panicked handling of this development by Greece’s tainted political establishment and the intransigence of the European Union, the International Monetary Fund and European Central Bank, ensured that this momentum built.

It was at this point that I returned to Athens after a 10-year absence. I lived in and reported on Greece for several years prior to 2004 and spent the ensuing decade in the newsrooms of London and as a foreign correspondent in Africa and elsewhere. Taking a break from journalism, I joined a software startup that is trying to build a Greek success story in the midst of the economic wreckage. For all its rewards, this decision has given me an unwanted vantage point to observe the unravelling of an extraordinary country.

The collapse of Greece’s corrupt political centre was marked earlier this year by the election of the left coalition, Syriza. Its success was built on the lie that it could deliver the same financial aid with fewer of the austere strings than its predecessors. Now that this lie has run it course, Syriza has abdicated responsibility for its own failure.

The result will be a referendum this Sunday with a crudely designed ballot in which the “no” box is given top billing and the question is framed in almost meaningless bureaucratic language. Greece’s prime minister, Alexis Tsipras, who has gone into full obfuscation mode, will push for a “no” vote without any discussion of what that would mean. In other words, the Greek government will now campaign to have its own failure at the negotiating table endorsed by the very people it will hurt the most. And there is every chance this deception will succeed.

It has been clear that the choice awaiting Greece was a future that looked like Portugal, a degraded economy of the European south; or Serbia, a proud nation led into the international wilderness by populists’ lies and fantasies of Russian rescue. Neither are good choices, but one is incalculably worse than the other.

Now is the time when the lazy lie of Greek exceptionalism, dripped like poison for decades into the country’s dysfunctional, nationalistic education system, will find its full expression. Bankruptcy, rupture and isolation will be welcomed with unfathomably foolish pride. The giddy talk of a second “oxi day” (the anniversary of Greece’s second world war refusal to surrender to fascist Italy) will not be calmed. For all its lunacy a “no” vote looms.

Outsiders will look on in bewilderment. Unlike money, there is plenty of blame to go around. The scramble to avoid responsibility will be excruciating, as the press conference on Monday by European Commission head Jean-Claude Juncker demonstrated. But this shambles will be of comparatively little consequence for those outside Greece.

The return of the drachma will bring misery with it. Devaluation, runaway inflation, shortages of food and medicine will be managed by an administration and populace whose default response is to blame enemies abroad.

Many critics of austerity who cheer on Tsipras wear their ignorance of Greek specifics like a badge of honour, with the US economist Paul Krugman a particularly egregious example. Others, like the British broadcaster Paul Mason, who is steeped in the lore and mores of the Greek left, are willing to see the country used as the vanguard of a doomed challenge to capitalism. Perhaps when the coffee runs out – for all its sunshine Greece lacks the altitude to grow it – a reflection point will be reached. By now I doubt even that. In the Greece we love and are all complicit in creating, there will be no end to lies.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/30/syriza-greece-referendum-voters-failure-austerity

Edited June 30, 2015 by vememah

[Anduril]

...

Mislim, EU kao poverilac uopšte nema mnogo izbora. Ona može da se ponaša kao legalni poverilac (banka), što znači da otpiše nenaplativ dug, otpusti kompletan menadžment, restruktuira se i ubuduće pazi kome i kako pozajmljuje pare. Ili može da se ponaša kao zelenaš sa ulice, što znači da zarad reputacije biznisa pošalje ekipu da ubiju dužnika koji nema da plati. To im je što im je, sve drugo je presipanje iz šupljeg u prazno što rade već pet godina sa vidljivo nikakvim rezultatima.

 

Mozda nisi primetio ali bankarsko restruktuiranje Evrozone kao i na globalnom nivou je uveliko u toku. Zato sada mogu da puste Grcku niz vodu a ranije nisu mogli. Likovi koji su davali te pare Grckoj su odavno u penziji i jos uvek ih slave kao evropske ujedinitelje i solidarce.

 

Drugo, restruktuiranje prezaduzenog grckog preduzeca je takodje pocelo a pri tome se uvek pocinje od sece troskova, itd. Problem je nastao zato sto ovo preduzece odbija da se dalje restruktuira da bi moglo da poveca ponudu i sto je ponosno na svoje dugove, krizu i svoj way of life. Preduzece se saginjati nece.

 

Zato sada sledi druga opcija - totalni bankrot preduzeca uz humanitarnu/socijalnu pomoc za zaposlene.

Zelenaska paralela ti je malo neumesna jer zelenasi obicno ne daju vise para ako im nisi vratio predhodne.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Anduril