Venom Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 Nisam citao par dana, pa mi je zanimljiva ova polu promena, gde su Grci od naivcina i amatera dosli do toga da se ponegde misli da su bez problema preveslali briselske junce. Moguce, ali vise mislim da su ove tuzne price o tome kako su im sve nudili namenjene lokalnoj publici. Kad dodje do pravog sranja, imace jos jedno deblje zrtveno jagnje.
Muwan Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 Nisam citao par dana, pa mi je zanimljiva ova polu promena, gde su Grci od naivcina i amatera dosli do toga da se ponegde misli da su bez problema preveslali briselske junce. To samo tako deluje kada pogledaš onu patetičnu melodramu koja stiže iz Brisela. Juncker je svojim nastupom ostavio takav utisak, mada mu to verovatno nije bila namera. Inače, teško je ovde biti pametan. Čitam reportaže sa Sintagme sinoć, pojam dostojanstva neverovatno dominira. Svi su u fazonu dostojanstva i ponosa zarad dobrobiti budućih generacija, ne vidim da bilo ko kaže: "OK, ajde da bankrotiramo i prođemo kroz čistilište ali posle toga da radimo stvari drugačije i da se za početak krvi napijemo onima koji su upropastili čitave generacije zadužujući ih bez pokrića kako bi kupovali njihove glasove." Sa druge strane, iz ovakvih tekstova može da se nasluti zašto im je dosta trenutnog dila i zašto ne žele novih pet godina istog. Iz čisto privatnog ugla, meni su Grci neverovatno dragi, tako nenormalni kakvi jesu. Uvek sam ih gotivio i strašno mi je žao što im se ovo dešava, a još više mi je žao kad ih vidim kako se bore protiv vetrenjača i propuštaju da urade ono što jedino može da im realno pomogne - da počiste svoje dvorište i onda polagano renoviraju kuću koristeći održive umesto toksičnih materijala.
Tribun_Populi Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 Iz čisto privatnog ugla, meni su Grci neverovatno dragi, tako nenormalni kakvi jesu. Uvek sam ih gotivio i strašno mi je žao što im se ovo dešava, a još više mi je žao kad ih vidim kako se bore protiv vetrenjača i propuštaju da urade ono što jedino može da im realno pomogne - da počiste svoje dvorište i onda polagano renoviraju kuću koristeći održive umesto toksičnih materijala. +1 Posebno je mučno sve gledati iz perspektive onih koji su proživeli "srbija se saginjati neće" fazu.
Prospero Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) Oko bankrota i plaćanja MMF-u ("going into arrears" jeste bankrot; MMF ima mogućnost da odloži isplate ali postoji politički rizik jer ima gomila siromašnijih zemalja kojima se ne odobravaju odlaganja): http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3344581e-1eda-11e5-aa5a-398b2169cf79.html#ixzz3eWluhtFm June 30, 2015 5:05 am Greece’s IMF payment: When is a default not a default? Shawn Donnan in Washington If Greece does not transfer the equivalent of €1.6bn to the International Monetary Fund on Tuesday, it will become the first advanced economy to default to the fund in its 71-year history. It will also take a step closer to what some fear could be the country’s exit from the eurozone and another round of economic turmoil in Europe. Here are 10 things worth keeping in mind on Tuesday as the clock counts down: 1. The most recent member to miss a payment to the IMF because of anything other than technical reasons was Zimbabwe in 2001. And as of the end of May Harare still owed $112m in principal and interest to the IMF. 2. Missing a payment to the IMF can have serious consequences. Greece will immediately lose access to IMF resources and could, if nothing is resolved quickly, eventually lose its voting rights and even be kicked out of the fund. 3. The deadline for payment is close of business at IMF headquarters, or a few minutes after 6pm Washington time on Tuesday (11pm in London, midnight in Brussels and 1am on Wednesday in Athens). 4. There is no grace period. Some analysts have misinterpreted IMF guidelines for missed payments as giving Athens up to 30 days to make its payment before the board is notified. Actually, fund officials say those guidelines are antiquated and that if the payment does not arrive, Christine Lagarde, IMF managing director, will immediately notify the board. That may have consequences for default clauses in the agreements governing loans extended to Athens by some of its European creditors. 5. Yes, a missed payment would be a default. Some analysts have argued that because the IMF uses the term “going into arrears” for members’ missed payments, it would not amount to a default. But that is a purely linguistic distinction. IMF officials are clear that it would be considered the equivalent of a default. They just would not call it that. 6. If Greece does not pay Tuesday’s €1.6bn payment, it would be the biggest ever missed to the IMF. Greece is now also the IMF’s biggest debtor. It owes the fund €35bn ($39bn) in principal alone as a result of the two bailouts in which the fund has participated since 2010. Over the rest of this year Greece is due to pay theIMF €5.5bn. 7. The IMF does not renegotiate repayment schedules with its members, a longstanding policy its officials have been keen to stress. When Greece broached the subject of a rescheduling of its IMF debts in April it was firmly rebuffed by Ms Lagarde. “Payment delays have not been granted by the board of the IMF in 30 years,” she told reporters at the time. 8. That said, there are provisions in the IMF’s bylaws, its Articles of Agreement, for member countries to be allowed to delay payments. Article 5, Section 7g of the Articles of Agreement reads: “The fund, on the request of a member, may postpone the date of discharge of a repurchase obligation, but not beyond the maximum period [of 5 years] unless the fund determines, by a 70 per cent majority of the total voting power, that a longer period . . . is justified because discharge on the due date would result in exceptional hardship for the member.” The problem for Greece is the first, five-year condition has not been used since 1982 when both Guyana and Nicaragua were given limited extra time to pay what they owed. The second condition, by which 70 per cent of members would have to approve a Greek request, has never been used. It might also require a recommendation from Ms Lagarde and IMF staff, which may not be immediately forthcoming. 9. Then again, the IMF has used obscure rules and precedents for Greece before. The €1.6bn payment due on Tuesday is the result of a “bundling” manoeuvre to bring together all of the country’s June payments. It was last employed by Zambia in the 1980s. Even senior and longstanding IMF officials say they had not heard of the procedure until it was raised as a precedent by Greek officials. 10. But that sort of thing has irked developing-world members of the IMF, some of whom say the fund has given special treatment to Greece by allowing it to run up much bigger debts than would be allowed for non-European countries. That matters these days. The fund is working hard to keep members such as Brazil and China happy because of the failure to implement 2010 voting reforms that were meant to give them a more significant share of the fund’s voting rights but are now stuck in the US Congress. Anything that could be perceived as special treatment for Greece is likely to prompt even more anger among emerging economies. It could represent another blow to the fund’s credibility with an important and rising bloc and force Europeans to make significant concessions down the track to preserve the IMF’s integrity. Edited June 30, 2015 by Prospero
Tribun_Populi Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 nego da odu u default (ne znam kako se ovo tačno kaže na srpskom - nije isto što i bankrot!). Docnja, dužnička docnja.
SNARC Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 da počiste svoje dvorište i onda polagano renoviraju kuću koristeći održive umesto toksičnih materijala. Vrlo bih voleo da vidim kako ovo izgleda uopste..mi to nismo uradili, vece evropske drzave iz istocnog bloka su mahom uzimane kao los primer tranzicije.. vecina ostalih drzava danas gura stvari pod tepih kako bi dobili na vremenu. Koga uopste uzeti za primer..Nemacku posle WW2 ?
Prospero Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) Pa sve je loše kad digneš standarde ocenjivanja na neki akademski nivo i onda čupaš kose i jaučeš. Ovako, na prizemnom svakodnevnom nivou, i IE zemlje i Srbija jesu transformisane u administrativnom pa i političkom smislu u odnosu na pre 20 godina. Ne traži se od Grčke ne znam kakav herojski poduhvat već izvesne administrativne reforme i dotezanje šrafova u sistemu. Koga će birati za taj posao je ipak grčka stvar. Edited June 30, 2015 by Prospero
aram Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 Süddeutsche Zeitung - sta je zaista sadrzala "velikodusna ponuda" Grckoj po njima, 35 milijardi iz paketa za grantove 2014-2020, na koje bi i inace imala pravo.
Prospero Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 Kako bi imala pravo kad će izborom "ne" verovatno izaći iz EZ i EU? Jasno je da natežem stvar ali je sve otišlo u malo kritičnijem pravcu od "sve će biti kao i obično". Normativno, Grčka bi trebala da ima pristup svemu tome, ali kontekstualno sada bira da li će imati to kao i druge (uz osteriti) ili će izaći iz svega i okušati sreću sama.
Tribun_Populi Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 ili će izaći iz svega i okušati sreću sama. Na stranu sve, ali počinjem da mislim da je ovo racionalan izbor, uz sve rizike koje sa sobom nosi.
vememah Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 Jedan Sirizin poslanik u EP je rekao da Cipras odvesti zemlju u stanje koje će biti nešto gore od onog u Zimbabveu. http://en.protothema.gr/syriza-mep-says-tsipras-tactics-turning-greece-intoslightly-worse-than-zimbabwe/
Prospero Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 Na stranu sve, ali počinjem da mislim da je ovo racionalan izbor, uz sve rizike koje sa sobom nosi. Pa možda, možda za 5 godina bude bolje Grcima sa novm drahmom i kakvim-takvim suverenim odlučivanjem. Strepnja mi je jača od nade jer mi se javljaju interne podele, rast ekstremne desnice, iskoraci ka autokratiji i diktaturi i uopšte drek od države, pre nego neka bajka.
Muwan Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) Na stranu sve, ali počinjem da mislim da je ovo racionalan izbor, uz sve rizike koje sa sobom nosi. Pa, ako je alternativa još pet, deset do dvadeset godina ovoga... Problem sa izlaskom i hrabrim fajtom je taj što prvo mora da se prođe kroz jedno 6 meseci ozbiljnog pakla, ostane na nogama, ne sklizne u neki fašizam ili spiralu nasilja, a posle toga sveeeeeeee mora da se radi drugačije. Jer ako se bude radilo isto pakao će se svako malo vraćati. Teoretski se isplati, u varijanti da posle prvobitnog užasa stvari počnu da dolaze na svoje mesto a ne odu u tri lepe. Ali to zavisi samo, isključivo i prevashodno od samih Grka. Edited June 30, 2015 by beowl
Muwan Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 Evo sad stižu vesti o nekoj apsolutno zadnjoj ponudi koja je stigla sinoć, navodno ne uključuje MMF i potpuno je podelila Syrizu.
Time Crisis Posted June 30, 2015 Posted June 30, 2015 Problem sa izlaskom i hrabrim fajtom je taj što prvo mora da se prođe kroz jedno 6 meseci ozbiljnog pakla, ostane na nogama, ne sklizne u neki fašizam ili spiralu nasilja, a posle toga sveeeeeeee mora da se radi drugačije. Jer ako se bude radilo isto pakao će se svako malo vraćati. Kao što se i vraćao, svakako im ovo nije prva kriza u istoriji, a teško i da je poslednja.
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