Grčka - enormni dug, protesti oko mera štednje

[Dr Arslanagić]

 

LEIGH SALES: Just to go back to Greece specifically, the politicians in Greece couldn’t even agree on the terms of a televised debate during the election campaign. How are they going to compromise on measures to fix the Greek economy?

YANIS VAROUFAKIS: They cannot fix the Greek economy. The Greek economy is finished. The Greek economy is in a great, great depression. The growing social economy is in its long, long winter of discontent. There is no power, no force within the Greek economy, with Greek society that can avert – it’s like – imagine if we were in Ohio in 1931 and we were to ask: what can Ohio politicians do to get Ohio out of the Great Depression? The answer is nothing.

LEIGH SALES: So what then happens to Greece?

YANIS VAROUFAKIS: It depends on what happens in the eurozone. Just like what happened in Ohio depended of the rise of President Roosevelt and the New Deal, unless we have a new deal for Europe, Greece is not going to get a chance. Now it doesn’t mean that if Europe fix itself, Greece will fix itself. It’s a necessary condition that the eurozone finds a rational plan for itself. It’s not a sufficient condition. Europe may fix itself and Greece, being so flimsy and malignant, may still have huge problems and never recover. But until and unless the eurozone finds a rational plan for stopping this train wreck throughout the European Union, throughout the eurozone, Greece has no chance at all.

LEIGH SALES: I read some statistics today that seven out of 10 Greeks want to emigrate. How would you describe the national mood there?

YANIS VAROUFAKIS: This is a our Great Depression. Not only in an economic sense, but also in a psychological sense. Greeks are in a catatonic state. One moment, in a state of rage, another, this is a typical case of manic depression. There are no prospects. There is no light at the end of the tunnel. There are sacrifices, but nobody gets a feeling that these are sacrifices that take the form of some kind of investment in turning the corner. This is the problem when you are stuck in a eurozone which is really badly designed, which is collapsing and which does not give opportunities to its flimsier parts to escape through some kind of redemptive crisis.

LEIGH SALES: Yanis Varoufakis, we can hear how noisy it is there. Thank you very much for making the time to speak to us tonight.

YANIS VAROUFAKIS: Thank you.

 

 

Jebiga, što više čitam Sirizin trust mozgova, sve manje imam simpatija za njihovu stvar. Posebno mi na kurac idu depresije i katatonije Grka koji i danas žive tri puta bolje od Bugara ili Rumuna.

[Ryan Franco]

 

 

Joseph Stiglitz: how I would vote in the Greek referendum

Neither alternative – approval or rejection of the troika’s terms – will be easy, and both carry huge risks

 

 Alexis Tsipras, leader of the radical left main opposition party Syriza, greets supporters after a rally of the party in the northern Greek port city of Thessaloniki, January 2015. Photograph: Sotiris Barbarousis/Sotiris Barbarousis/epa/Corbis

 

Monday 29 June 2015 17.02 BST Last modified on Monday 29 June 201518.52 BST

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The rising crescendo of bickering and acrimony within Europe might seem to outsiders to be the inevitable result of the bitter endgame playing out between Greece and its creditors. In fact, European leaders are finally beginning to reveal the true nature of the ongoing debt dispute, and the answer is not pleasant: it is about power and democracy much more than money and economics.

Live Greece debt crisis: Thousands of no supporters protest, as EC urges yes vote - live

Governments of France, Germany and Italy all warn that Greeks are voting on their eurozone membership on Sunday, as banks remain shut

 

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Of course, the economics behind the programme that the “troika” (the European Commission, the European Central Bank, and the International Monetary Fund) foisted on Greece five years ago has been abysmal, resulting in a 25% decline in the country’s GDP. I can think of no depression, ever, that has been so deliberate and had such catastrophic consequences: Greece’s rate of youth unemployment, for example, now exceeds 60%.

It is startling that the troika has refused to accept responsibility for any of this or admit how bad its forecasts and models have been. But what is even more surprising is that Europe’s leaders have not even learned. The troika is stilldemanding that Greece achieve a primary budget surplus (excluding interest payments) of 3.5% of GDP by 2018.

Economists around the world have condemned that target as punitive, because aiming for it will inevitably result in a deeper downturn. Indeed, even if Greece’s debt is restructured beyond anything imaginable, the country will remain in depression if voters there commit to the troika’s target in the snap referendum to be held this weekend.

In terms of transforming a large primary deficit into a surplus, few countries have accomplished anything like what the Greeks have achieved in the last five years. And, though the cost in terms of human suffering has been extremely high, the Greek government’s recent proposals went a long way toward meeting its creditors’ demands.

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We should be clear: almost none of the huge amount of money loaned to Greece has actually gone there. It has gone to pay out private-sector creditors – including German and French banks. Greece has gotten but a pittance, but it has paid a high price to preserve these countries’ banking systems. The IMF and the other “official” creditors do not need the money that is being demanded. Under a business-as-usual scenario, the money received would most likely just be lent out again to Greece.

But, again, it’s not about the money. It’s about using “deadlines” to force Greece to knuckle under, and to accept the unacceptable – not only austerity measures, but other regressive and punitive policies.

But why would Europe do this? Why are European Union leaders resisting the referendum and refusing even to extend by a few days the June 30 deadline for Greece’s next payment to the IMF? Isn’t Europe all about democracy?

In January, Greece’s citizens voted for a government committed to ending austerity. If the government were simply fulfilling its campaign promises, it would already have rejected the proposal. But it wanted to give Greeks a chance to weigh in on this issue, so critical for their country’s future wellbeing.

That concern for popular legitimacy is incompatible with the politics of the eurozone, which was never a very democratic project. Most of its members’ governments did not seek their people’s approval to turn over their monetary sovereignty to the ECB. When Sweden’s did, Swedes said no. They understood that unemployment would rise if the country’s monetary policy were set by a central bank that focused single-mindedly on inflation (and also that there would be insufficient attention to financial stability). The economy would suffer, because the economic model underlying the eurozone was predicated on power relationships that disadvantaged workers.

And, sure enough, what we are seeing now, 16 years after the eurozone institutionalised those relationships, is the antithesis of democracy: many European leaders want to see the end of prime minister Alexis Tsipras’ leftist government. After all, it is extremely inconvenient to have in Greece a government that is so opposed to the types of policies that have done so much to increase inequality in so many advanced countries, and that is so committed to curbing the unbridled power of wealth. They seem to believe that they can eventually bring down the Greek government by bullying it into accepting an agreement that contravenes its mandate.

It is hard to advise Greeks how to vote on 5 July. Neither alternative – approval or rejection of the troika’s terms – will be easy, and both carry huge risks. A yes vote would mean depression almost without end. Perhaps a depleted country – one that has sold off all of its assets, and whose bright young people have emigrated – might finally get debt forgiveness; perhaps, having shrivelled into a middle-income economy, Greece might finally be able to get assistance from the World Bank. All of this might happen in the next decade, or perhaps in the decade after that.

By contrast, a no vote would at least open the possibility that Greece, with its strong democratic tradition, might grasp its destiny in its own hands. Greeks might gain the opportunity to shape a future that, though perhaps not as prosperous as the past, is far more hopeful than the unconscionable torture of the present.

I know how I would vote.

Joseph E. Stiglitz, a Nobel laureate in economics, is University Professor at Columbia University. His most recent book, co-authored with Bruce Greenwald, is Creating a Learning Society: A New Approach to Growth, Development, and Social Progress. 

Copyright: Project Syndicate, 2015.

 

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/29/joseph-stiglitz-how-i-would-vote-in-the-greek-referendum?CMP=share_btn_fb

[Dagmar]

Dakle, izlazak kao rešenje. Ok.

 

Edit: mogao je reći i "imagine if we were in Detroit in 2013..." tj u zemlji u kojoj skoro niko nije bankrotirao osim Detroita.

 

 

Ne reci dvaput. Tj ja bih volela da si u pravu ali imam neko ubeđenje da u narednih dve tri godine gledamo krah na većoj skali, ono što je počelo 2008e pa malo amortizovano.

[Lezilebovich]

Jebiga, što više čitam Sirizin trust mozgova, sve manje imam simpatija za njihovu stvar. Posebno mi na kurac idu depresije i katatonije Grka koji i danas žive tri puta bolje od Bugara ili Rumuna.

 

e ovo sam baš hteo da pitam.

one slike praznih rafova su stvarno stanje ili neki marketing ? koliko je realno loše u toj grčkoj ? imaju ljudi pare za najke, za kafiće i restorane, za voće povrće i meso ?

Edited June 29, 2015 by Lezilebovich

[Ryan Franco]

bilo je reportaža tokom 2012 o dramatičnom povećanju broja beskućnika.

 

mimo toga, mislim da postoji neki solidno stojeći lower middle class koji će biti zbrisan, nevezano za ishode referenduma.

[Budja]

Jebiga, što više čitam Sirizin trust mozgova, sve manje imam simpatija za njihovu stvar. Posebno mi na kurac idu depresije i katatonije Grka koji i danas žive tri puta bolje od Bugara ili Rumuna.prvo mesto 

 

Tesko je u ovoj prici oholosti i nadmenosti navijati za bilo kog lika. Varufakis i Junker se kolju za prvo mesto po odvratnosti. Cipras je ipak nesto simpaticniji.

[April]

Kako to da se krene baš od banaka?

 

Meni više liči na pokaznu vežbu eurobirokratije: Nećete da štedite? U redu, možemo i ovako da razgovaramo.

[MancMellow]

+1

 

Cipras kaze da ce podneti ostavku ako YES pobedi.

To je sasvim razumno, politicki cisto i odgovorno, i kontra projekcija koje su Prospero i Manc pisali a kojima je Varufakis svojim dvosmislenim izjavama kumovao.

 

 

 

polako, ja sam napisao da ce pobeda Yes opcije ostetiti Syrizu i "Ciprasa in particular". Ali

 

to ne znači da će Syriza pasti odmah s vlasti, možda bude neki drugi mandatar iz njihovih redova

 

varufakisov položaj je malo drugačiji, a on se i ne eksponira mnogo u Oxi kampanji

[Skyhighatrist]

Čujem večeras u restoranu kako za susednim stolom ljudi mrtvi ozbiljni pizde na Varufakisa koji je rekao da Srbi najviše kradu, i da naši turisti nisu pokrali toliko stvari, sad bi imali para (Grci) da plate makar jednu ratu MMFu.

Mamicu mu jebem bezobraznu, pa kako ga nije sramota, i sve u tom smislu...

 

Okrenem se, pitam izvinjavam se, odakle vam ta vest? Kaže iz današnjih novina, sad je pročitao na Fejsu, šeruju ljudi, svi besni...

 

 

Po povratku kući, nađem tekst.

[Аврам Гојић]

ja odavno tvrdim da postoje ljudi koji su na hromozomskom nivou nesposobni da shvate satiru.

[akibono]

Stvarno sramota, optužuju Srbe da su im pokrali tolike tanjire, a oni sami ih stalno lome po kafanama 

[kud u maglu Simoviću]

ja odavno tvrdim da postoje ljudi koji su na hromozomskom nivou sposobni jedino da dišu.

+1

[Anduril]

Kako Stiglitz lupeta, nevidjeno.

Strong democratic tradition u Grckoj a Evropa nedemokratski projekat - smejurija.

Jos bolje je ono, it is not about the money i da pare nisu zapravo zavrsile u Grckoj.

[archi]

Marin ‏@velimish  2h2 hours ago

Ne kužim ekonomiju, ali nekako sam #teamCipras samo zato jer ide kontra šupačkog sustava

[yolo]

Jebiga, što više čitam Sirizin trust mozgova, sve manje imam simpatija za njihovu stvar. Posebno mi na kurac idu depresije i katatonije Grka koji i danas žive tri puta bolje od Bugara ili Rumuna.

 

realno je ozbiljno smanjen prostor za empatiju prema grcima posle svega.