Ljudske posade u međuplanetarnim misijama - za i protiv

[No7]

Русија има у плану неколико програма међу којима је и пут на Марс.Један од програма за припрему пута за Марс је програм Марс 500 који се већ спроводи.http://static.astronomija.co.rs/astronautika/mars/mars500/mars500.htmhttp://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/31/science/space/31mars.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rssКоа и развој новог мотора,Русија почиње да финансира пројекат летилице са нуклеарним мотором http://www.i-mash.ru/news/nov_otrasl/6859-rossija-nachinaet-finansirovanie-proekta.htmlТекст је на руском. Мада су цифре које су улажу тренутно смешно мале нека прича постоји.Затим постоји заједнички пројекат Руса и Кинеза који се зове Phobos-Grunt, који треба да оде до Фобосакао што му и име каже.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_GruntИма још неколико пројеката али су 2009. због кризе стављени на чекање неки од њих су,Luna-Glob, први од 4 лета на месец на којем Руси планирају да изграде Роботску станицу.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luna_GlobVenera-D, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venera_DИмају још неке али они нису повезани са путовањима између планета.New Earth resources programs using the Resurs DK platform: Resurs P (2009) and Smotr (2007) and a small platform Arkon (2007) Earthquake monitoring satellite Vulkan (2007) New science missions: Koronas Foton (launched in January 2009), Spektr R (Radioastron, 2007), Spektr RG (Radio Gamma, 2009) and Spektr UV (Ultra Violet, 2010), Intergelizond (2011), Venera D (2016), Celsta (2018) and Terion (2018) Resumption of Bion missions with Bion M (2010) New weather satellites Elektro L (2007) and Elektro P (2015) Све зависи од руске економије. Вероватно ће онај пројекат са Кинезима да се реализује а и то је већ довољно у однбосу на претходни период.

Edited March 10, 2010 by No7

[Jolly Roger]

Odlicno je ovo, Rusi su cesto u ovoj prici nepravedno zapostavljeni, hvala #7...

Edited March 10, 2010 by Jolly Roger

[No7]

Нема на чему.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yZlbYQXg0khttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUeQxqM6jT8

Edited March 10, 2010 by No7

[No7]

Да комплетирам причу. Ово је нови свемирски брод који ће заменити Сојуз,Све о њему,http://www.russianspaceweb.com/ppts.html

[Њујоркер]

Rusi bas cackaju djavola. Da sam na njihovom mestu, pazljivo bih gledao u sta bih ulagao ono malo rubalja.Za sada Mars-Rusi 9:1Da se podsetimo:Mars 1 - 1963. omasio MarsMars 2 - 1971. orbiter uspeo da slika oblake, lender se razbio ko pi*kaMars 3 - 1971. orbiter uspeo da slika, a lender da se izgubi medju oblacimaMars 4 - 1973. omasio MarsMars 5 - 1974. konacno! 60 slika vraceno nazad na Zemlju - misija uspesna!!!Mars 6 - 1974. lender uspeo da se spusti na povrsinu Marsa ali podaci poslati bili necitljiviMars 7 - 1974. lender omasio planetu!Fobos 1 - 1988. letelica izgubljenaFobos 2 - 1989. stigao do Marsa, ali izgubljen pre nego sto je uspeo da sibne lendere na FobosMars 96/Mars 8 - 1996. raketa eksplodirala prilikom lansiranja :thumbdown:Bolje da se skoncentrisu na razvijanje tog njihovog Klipera, Rusa ili kako vec...

[Aineko]

Ne vidim korelaciju između prva dva i druga dva odlomka.Kakve veze ima šetnja 5-6 Amera/Rusa/Kineza na Marsu sa rješavanjem egzistencijalnih problema čovječanstva.

ovo mi izgleda kao pitanje "zasto neko u nekoj tamo laboratoriji trosi pare na nokautiranje nekog gena u nekoj gljivi kad od toga niko nema nekakve prakticne koristi?". pa zato sto u nauci nema velikih koraka (applied science) bez malih koraka (basic science). prosto, dok ne posaljemo 5-6 ljudi na Mars i oni ne provedu tamo neko vreme, mi necemo moci da znamo kako bi se ljudi ponasali/prilagodili takvim uslovima...

Ostaje za kraj pitanje drago braniocima potlacenih sirom planete: zasto i cemu trositi milijarde za nikome potrebna kosmicka istrazivanja dok na svetu postoji jedno jedino gladno ljudsko bice? Na ovo odgovora nema

hmmm :)

quote iz Babylon 5, kad Sinclera pita novinarka da li treba nastaviti sa svemirskim istrazivanjima dok 'kod kuce' ima 'toliko problema'"No. We have to stay here and there's a simple reason why. Ask ten different scientists about the environment, population control, genetics and you'll get ten different answers, but there's one thing every scientist on the planet agrees on. Whether it happens in a hundred years or a thousand years or a million years, eventually our Sun will grow cold and go out. When that happens, it won't just take us. It'll take Marilyn Monroe and Lao-Tzu, Einstein, Morobuto, Buddy Holly, Aristophanes .. and all of this .. all of this was for nothing unless we go to the stars."

odgovor mozda deluje suvise idealisticki, ali je, kad se sve svede, sabere, oduzme, podvuce...jedini tacan (a i ne mora da se ide toliko daleko, to ipak nece skoro, ima i drugih, blizih pretnji planeti). osim ako ne zelimo da zivimo sa planom da se relativno skoro samoiskorenimo.

[No7]

Постоје одређени чак и економски разлози да се оде ван Земље, али би то могло бити значајно тек у будућности.У питању је Хелиум-3, зато Руси и Кинези, засебно, имају планове да заскоче Месец. Али све је то неизвесно јер то све зависи од вежних и скупих експеримената на Земљи.

[Jolly Roger]

Za sada Mars-Rusi 9:1

Jeste, Rusi su se bas izgruvali s Marsom. Oko polovine misija na Veneru je takodje dozivelo neuspeh. Ipak, uspeli su da se spuste dva puta na nju, sto je veliki uspeh znajuci kakvi su uslovi na planeti. Bez obzira na sve neuspehe, imaju Rusi sta da ponude i ne treba ih otpisivati olako.Uzgred, OVO je bilo za medalju... :)

[Roger Sanchez]

ovo mi izgleda kao pitanje "zasto neko u nekoj tamo laboratoriji trosi pare na nokautiranje nekog gena u nekoj gljivi kad od toga niko nema nekakve prakticne koristi?". pa zato sto u nauci nema velikih koraka (applied science) bez malih koraka (basic science). prosto, dok ne posaljemo 5-6 ljudi na Mars i oni ne provedu tamo neko vreme, mi necemo moci da znamo kako bi se ljudi ponasali/prilagodili takvim uslovima...

Kako nećemo? Po čemu su uvjeti života za jednog homo sapiensa radikalno različiti na Marsu od onih na Mjesecu? Ili čak na jednoj stanici, recimo u geostacionarnoj orbiti ili L1?Nokautiranje gena u gljivi je prvo, jeftino, drugo, ima potencijala za nova otkrića. Slanje astronauta na Mars nema apsolutno nikakvih potencijala za išta korisno, a ja ovdje govorim o odnosu uloženo/dobiveno, koji je ovdje tako nabijen na uloženo stranu da je ta klackalica praktički vertikalna.edit: ono da ne bi ispao neki Ayatollah Antimarsizma, nisam ja protiv krcanja čovaca na Mars zauvijek. Ali neko razumno smanjivanje troškova i komplikacija takvih poduhvata odgađa to tako daleko u ovo stoljeće (ja sumnjam i da je ovo stoljeće realan timeframe za to) da je tu bespredmetno raspravljati o tome.Bit će fenomenalno, dragi moji probijači™ ceilinga, ako uopće do 2050 hjumankajnd uspostavi trajnu prisutnost na Mjesecu.U kratkom roku, do tada, ja ne želim da se ne događa ništa, a osobito da se ulupavaju novci u lude sanje i bezvezarije oko Marsa. Sonde, teleskopi u svemiru i Mjesec, uvr' glave. Edited March 11, 2010 by Roger Sanchez

[No7]

Nuclear Traction Engine To Take Russian Spacemen to MarsVitaly Lopota, the head of Russia's Energia Space Corporation, reported when and how Russian spacemen would travel to Mars. In the past few years it seemed like Russia was ready to accept its role as a space power number two. Americans are building a new spaceship and packing their space suits for the Mars expedition, while Russia is modernizing its Soyuz yet again, built over 40 years ago. Like true cab drivers, Russia gives rides to the International Space Station to everyone who pays. At the 34th academic readings devoted to space issues held in Bauman Moscow State Technology University in memory of Sergey Korolyov, Vitaly Lopota, president and chief engineer of Energia Space Corporation, made an astonishing statement. He presented a clear, balanced and modern development plan for Russian pilot-controlled space technology. The plan included deadlines, a well-thought strategy and weak points (which is particularly plausible, since otherwise the plan would sound like an arrogant attempt at success rather than an engineering plan). The International Space Station (ISS) is the most expensive project in the world. Participating countries have already invested 120 billion dollars into it. Even wealthy Americans had to tighten their belts and first abandon their shuttles (this year), and then their Moon program (the Congress recently cut the program’s budget). No one is planning to close the ISS in 2015 as it was intended 10 years ago because the money has been already paid. The station is finally fully equipped. Last week the Americans attached the new wing called Tranquility to it. Its seven illuminators provide the view of the ISS and Earth. It was decided to keep the station until 2020. There are talks, however, that the station will be hanging in orbit until 2028 or even longer. Why not? It could be turned into the base for preparing interplanetary expeditions. Old, worn out modules could be replaced with new ones. There is a danger for Russia to get bogged down in this project. Even if Russia builds a new ship, we might still remain a mere space cab driver while replacing Soyuz with Rus’. Then we will be number two for sure. Many experts I talked to were concerned about this issue. And then, Lopata made his crucial statement. The Russian pilot-controlled program will develop concurrently with Rus’ and rockets for in-orbit delivery. In the 50 years of space era the humanity learned very well how to deliver cargo to low earth orbit. Bringing 20 to 30 tons 300 to 500 kilometers above Earth does not pose a problem. But this is what the experts call the “stopover technology” (throwing a satellite in required orbit and burning the fuel). What about traveling to Mars? How much rocket fuel – oxygen, hydrogen, and kerosene - is required for a spacecraft traveling to Mars? Imagine that an entire house would have to be sent to the Red Planet. The team has to be provided with all necessities. Plus , life support systems must be duplicated . A person requires on average 22 pounds of resources to survive one day, including food, water, air and clothes. A team traveling to Mars consists of minimum four people. “ Two people team means a potential conflict . Three people team means a conflict of two against one. Four people are the required minimum,” Lopota explains. This means that 88lbs of cargo is required per day. It takes approximately 8.5 months to fly to Mars, and another 8.5 months to fly back, plus the time spent in orbit. Experts calculated that a spacecraft travelling to the Red Planet must weigh 500 tons. The ISS is now half of this weight. “The way out is nuclear energy,” states Lopota. This means that nuclear power rather than a rocket engine should pull a spacecraft headed to Mars. Spacecrafts with nuclear engines are not just a dream. Back in the 1970s, the Soviet Union launched nuclear powered satellites. Recently a federal program “New generation of nuclear energy technologies for the period of 2010 - 2015 and up to 2020” was approved. This year, 500 million was allocated for creation of transport-power module based on nuclear energy. According to Lopota, the first nuclear power spacecraft can be launched by Russia in 2017. This means that by the end of the decade, if all works out, we will have both a new manual spacecraft and new energy system. Vitaly Lopota is convinced that Russian spacecrafts will be built from modules. Nuclear power can be used as a basis for a universal platform capable of solving a number of issues, including those outside of low earth orbit. It could serve as a cargo delivery vehicle (for example, to the Moon) or as a base for telecommunication satellites or even a special trawl for collecting space litter. It could also serve as an interplanetary interceptor capable of eliminating asteroids posing a threat for the humanity. Engineers suggest using the same platform as the basis for the Mars expedition complex. “By 2020 - 2025 Russia will have a base for assembling interplanetary spacecrafts in orbit,” Lopota is convinced. The project will employ the piloted capsule Rus’, storage modules, and scientific labs. In orbit these components would come together as a Mars complex. The complex will not have to be built for one flight only. Its structure will depend on its task . One type of structure would be assembled for traveling to asteroids and other type would be assembled for delivering cargo to low earth orbit. In the 1960s, a trip to the Moon was a new American national idea. America’s feelings were hurt by Gagarin’s flight. These hurt feelings helped the country to create a unique technology for the Moon trip. It was the Moon project that has advanced the American science and technology. The advancement of the 1960 made the USA the intellectual world leader that produces top notch technologies.

http://english.pravda.ru/science/tech/112300-1/P.S. "Правда" је провладин лист, узимте у обзир то када читате.

[Jolly Roger]

O ovome je već bilo reči:

'Cosmonauts' ready for Mars testA Belgian, two Frenchmen and a Colombian-Italian have agreed to be locked away in steel containers for 18 months to simulate a mission to Mars.BBC

[dig_chohano]

Belgijanac će ih pobiti u 6.-7.mesecu "misije". Apsolutno izvesan ishod.

[Roger Sanchez]

Obama je i službeno objavio smrt američkog državnog space programa. Poslije Shuttlea - ništa. Subvencije privatnicima, koji će se najmanje sljedećih nekoliko godina zvati Putin i Medvedev ^_^ . Heavy lifter raketa se konceptira do 2015., a onda će se kobajagi graditi. Obama se kune da neće krepat prije nego što prvi čovjeci došetaju na Mars, tako mu Bog pomogao. To bu bilo negdje kao oko 2030.

(

tako mu svega.  Sic transit... Inače u  svađu moon walkera s Obamom uključio se Buzz Aldrin na Obaminoj strani.  :kdp:

[Jolly Roger]

[Jolly Roger]

Obama se kune da neće krepat prije nego što prvi čovjeci došetaju na Mars, tako mu Bog pomogao. To bu bilo negdje kao oko 2030.

Obama sets Mars goal for AmericaBarack Obama says it should be possible to send astronauts to orbit the planet Mars by the mid-2030s and return them safely to Earth.BBC

Jedan od komentara na ovu vest:

33. At 11:10am on 16 Apr 2010, Ben Essada wrote:2030s? Remind them to pack a Chinese phrase book ... so they can talk to air traffic control when they arrive.

:D Edited April 17, 2010 by Jolly Roger