Jedno sasvim novo i drugačije Presidency..

[mandingo]

Drugi pasus se odnosi na libertarijance, ne na liberale...

[Anduril]

Upravo to Mark Ames cinično primećuje:Liberals, the great opposition to everything mean and ruthless in this culture, couldn’t muster up a get-together for anything better than a mock-in. Led by a clown.[...] A century-old ideological movement, Liberalism: once devoted to impossible causes like ending racism and inequality, empowering the powerless, fighting against militarism, and all that silly hippie shit—now it’s been reduced to besting the other side at one-liners…and to the Liberals’ credit, they’re clearly on top. Sure there are a lot of problems out there, a lot of pressing needs—but the main thing is, the Liberals don’t look nearly as stupid as the other guys do. And if you don’t know how important that is to this generation, then you won’t understand what’s so wrong and so deeply depressing about the Jon Stewart Rally to Restore Sanity.. No, najlepše je ostavio za kraj: Anytime anyone says anything libertarian, spit on them. Libertarians are by definition enemies of the state: they are against promoting American citizens’ general welfare and against policies that create a perfect union. Like Communists before them, they are actively subverting the Constitution and the American Dream, and replacing it with a Kleptocratic Nightmare.. Ceo članak

Covek je obicna budala. "Libertarians are by definition enemies of the state." Mislim, ako imamo u vidu ko cini najveci deo onog sto se u SAD zove the state - tako i treba.

[Roger Sanchez]

Covek je obicna budala. "Libertarians are by definition enemies of the state." Mislim, ako imamo u vidu ko cini najveci deo onog sto se u SAD zove the state - tako i treba.

Ne, akademiče, mislio je na ove male uplašene ostatke staaare FDR-LBJ države koje stoje dubokoj državi na putu da joj se vrati nekadašnji Coolidge bliss.Možda da se malo vratiš iscrpnijem skeniranju teksta?

[Anduril]

Ne, akademiče, mislio je na ove male uplašene ostatke staaare FDR-LBJ države koje stoje dubokoj državi na putu da joj se vrati nekadašnji Coolidge bliss.Možda da se malo vratiš iscrpnijem skeniranju teksta?

Mislis na ovaj srednji pasos?

I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say a few things that might sound stupid, but bear with me:1. Collective action is the only possible way to change shit. Large numbers of collectivized nobodies rallying to demand what they want–a better cut of the pie, and a better world to live in. It’s the only thing that power-elites fear and the only way to get them to negotiate. There must be thousands of billionaires’ unions—whether the Chamber of Commerce or the gazillions of libertarian networks—and the only thing they hope and dream about and invest their effort into is planting a seed into your vain Gen-X brain that makes you think it’s lame to collectivize. That’s it, that’s the only thing they care about while they’re plundering away. You’ll have to stomach being around people who are lame, and who say lame things, and you’ll feel lame—so you’ll have to decide which is lamer: the fear of being lame, or forming an alliance with people lamer than you in order to struggle against people far meaner, far more greedy and destructive than the lame people you hate—people who have no qualms about being lame when they collectivize, so long as they destroy you and grab everything they want. Tough choice, I know.2. The problem with the Left wasn’t that they were too fixated on proving they were right, or that they didn’t make enough noise before the war about the lies that led us into that war…the problem is that the Left doesn’t stand for anything Big because it’s not guided by a vision or an Ideal. What does the Left stand for? Let me suggest a few things in people’s own personal interests in these decaying times that the Left should stand for: first, people need money. Then if they have money, they need Life. Then they might be interested in “ideals” set out in the contract that this country is founded on. Ever read the preamble to the Constitution? There’s nothing about private property there and self-interest. Nothing at all about that. It’s a contract whose purpose is clearly spelled out, and it’s a purpose that’s the very opposite of the purpose driving Stewart’s rally, or the purpose driving the libertarian ideology so dominant over the past few generations. This country, by contract, was founded in order to strive for a “more Perfect Union”—that’s “union,” as in the pairing of the words “perfect” and “union”—not sovereign, not states, not local, not selfish, but “union.” And that other purpose at the end of the Constitution’s contractual obligations: promote the “General Welfare.” That means “welfare.” Not “everyone for himself” but “General Welfare.” That’s what it is to be American: to strive to form the most perfect union with each other, and to promote everyone’s general betterment. That’s it. The definition of an American patriot is anyone promoting the General Welfare of every single American, and anyone helping to form the most perfect Union—that’s “union”, repeat, “Union” you dumb fucks. Now, our problem is that there are a lot of people in this country who have dedicated their entire lives to subverting the stated purpose of this country. We must be prepared to identify those who disrupt and sabotage our national purpose of creating this “more perfect union” identifying those who sabotage our national goal of “promoting the General Welfare”—and calling them by their name: traitors. You who strive to form this Perfect Union and promote General Welfare—You are Patriots.3. Anytime anyone says anything libertarian, spit on them. Libertarians are by definition enemies of the state: they are against promoting American citizens’ general welfare and against policies that create a perfect union. Like Communists before them, they are actively subverting the Constitution and the American Dream, and replacing it with a Kleptocratic Nightmare.

Ili je ironican ili je obicna budala, kao sto vec rekoh. KAd citam takve pasuse brzo zakljucujem da za iscrpno skeniranje nemam vremena. Net je pun mnogo korisnijih informacija.Onaj deo pre toga nije toliko povezan sa ovim a ima i vise smisla. Edited November 1, 2010 by Anduril

[Indy]

Oprostite, ObiW i ostali, ali ta dalja rasprava, koliko god da je zanimljiva, nema veze sa mojim komentarom na koji se ObiW nadovezao. Htedoh prosto reći da Stewartov skup ovde prisvaja progresivni frindž koji ima potpuno ekstremni sud o svemu na Tea Party/republikanskoj/libertarijanskoj strani (kao da se radi o uniformnom frontu i da su svi oni 1 Glenn Beck). A između ostalog je na nežni način Jon Stewart pokušao da apeluje da se i tu makar malo smanji ton. Posle toga slede oduševljeni WTF i TBone, sa skrotumima i sličnom sadržinom.

[Anduril]

........... ekstremni sud o svemu na Tea Party/republikanskoj/libertarijanskoj strani (kao da se radi o uniformnom frontu i da su svi oni 1 Glenn Beck)..........

Upravo to. Nisu svi isti na toj strani a neki argumenata koji se navode imaju itekako smisla. Nije Obama napravio ovu krizu ali nisu je napravili ni libertarijanci. A ono sto se sada radi na ekonomskom planu je jos mnogo gore od onog sto je Bus radio od 2001-2003 zajedno sa Fed-om a posledice ce se osetiti isto tako tek pred kraj Obaminog osmogodisnjeg mandata (kao i za vreme Busa pre toga) ako ga uopste i bude.

[mandingo]

Nisu ni svi na demokratskoj strani code pink, komunjare i Bill Ayres, pa se taj koncept opet provlaci po FNC-u.

[Indy]

Nisu ni svi na demokratskoj strani code pink, komunjare i Bill Ayres, pa se taj koncept opet provlaci po FNC-u.

Ne provlači se na ovom topiku. Zato to i nisam spomenuo, premda je to bio drugi deo Restore Sanity.

[Roger Sanchez]

Aha, nisam na vrijeme skužio da sam u diskusiji sa dva Ayn Randovca u ovom partikularnom kontekstu.   :lol:Ima i marksizam dobre argumente također, samo što na njima na kraju praktično najbolje zajaši Visarionovič i Kim Jong Un. Tako se i iza libertarijanaca smiješe braća Koch koji u njima vide šansu da se osigura 1 veći stupanj instant gratifikacije sebe sada i odmah. Nisam ja protiv principa slobode, uopće, međutim dok god u čovječanstvu postoji princip da se plutokracija prenosi s koljena na koljeno, i marksistički i libertarijanski ideal je neostvariv, jer ga potire moralno i ljudsko branjenje takvog nasljeđivanja pred sebičnom i slobodnom željom 1 prola da i on malo živi bubregulojasto, a da mu se ne na putu za gratifikaciju ne postavljaju barijere kao što su isprazni koncepti ograničavanja osobne slobode djelovanja i života, nabrojimo samo dva - tzv. 'pljačka' i tzv. 'ubojstvo'.Države u uvijek radile na tome da se samoodrže moderirajući vjekovni kompromis prola i plutokracije, osiguravajući da postoji socijalna mobilnost jednog frinđ udjela ljudskog mravinjaka; 0,00000001%, otprilike jednske šanse da će WTF ili Indy postati Koch kao i da će doživjeti Rapture kako sutra - daklen tzv. the American Dream, ali i pablik kičnz. Ames tu postulira jednako validnu ideju Ljevice zasnovane na tom Ustavu, za što TeaBaggersi aralauču da nije validna. E pa mnogo ga seru, jer je. Tako treba Amese, neka si im reko - ko tebe kinji Konstitjušnom, kinji i ti njega jednakom mjerom - imaš na to pravo! Slobodu pače!Progresivni frinđ ima ekstremni sud? Pa što? Akcija mora imati reakciju. Ima li progresivni frinđ svoj FauxNews? Ima li progresivni bijesni đukac svog Ruperta? Nema. Dopuštam mu, iz samilosti, da upućuje i ovako oštre kvalifikacije - uvijek sam simpatizirao i simpatiziram slabiju stranu u okršajima, osim kad sam jača strana ja.

Edited November 1, 2010 by Roger Sanchez

[Indy]

Progresivni frinđ ima ekstremni sud? Pa što?

Pa, ništa, osim što je Rally to Restore Sanity bio protiv ekstremnih stavova.Samo sam to hteo reći... rasprave o libertarijanizmu i marksizmu me ne zanimaju.

[mandingo]

FNC je 'fair and balanced' taman koliko i MSNBC, kad vec pises o dzukcima i fringeu. Izjednjacavanje tea party folka sa libertarijancima, isto tako, ne stoji. Tamo su vecina Christian conservative... libertarijanci bi bili pro - choice, pro gay marriage, anti war i slicno. Cak ni Ron Paulov sin nije libertarijanac, bar ne u pravom smisli te reci... samo treba baciti pogled na njegovu kampanju.

[Roger Sanchez]

Pa, ništa, osim što je Rally to Restore Sanity bio protiv ekstremnih stavova.

Pa super OK je to, problem je što ljevica praktično nema ekstreman stav, dakle da se je ljevičarski hell upravo duboko smrznuo od R2RS puhanja, dok onaj quasilibertarijanski i dalje fino krčka i puši se. Mislim da Amesa to pomalo žulja. Razumijem ga. Solidariziram se.Koliko će ajatolaha marksizma i trockizma Great Societyja sutra biti izabrano za MoCove, a koliko libetarijanski gugućućih GOP plemića? Koliko tek pobješnjelih ajatolaha Army, God & Me don't give a fauck bout the poor & hope the'll die w'out much fuss & smell? Bomb bomb Iran..edit: Pogotovo mislim na to da su još od Trumana oko 10 do 20 članova Senata i 50 članova HofRep uvijek DINOi. Ljevica bi trebala stati iza jedne perfect union ideje, pa ako izgubi, izgubi. Ako među sobom ima te ljude koji suštinski pripadaju GOPu, neka ih pročisti. TeeParty je prionuo na taj posao, vrijeme je da i Demokrati krenu na to. Nek se sredina oslobodi za Stewartovu neutralnu partiju, možda prestane gridlock. Edited November 1, 2010 by Roger Sanchez

[Indy]

FNC je 'fair and balanced' taman koliko i MSNBC, kad vec pises o dzukcima i fringeu. Izjednjacavanje tea party folka sa libertarijancima, isto tako, ne stoji. Tamo su vecina Christian conservative... libertarijanci bi bili pro - choice, pro gay marriage, anti war i slicno. Cak ni Ron Paulov sin nije libertarijanac, bar ne u pravom smisli te reci... samo treba baciti pogled na njegovu kampanju.

Nigde nisam napisao da je FNC fer - ne znam da li je teško čitati moje postove ili šta, ali ako jeste, onda ih je bolje preskakati.Nigde ja nisam izjednačio Tea Party nisakim, zar je moguće da nije bilo jasno da upravo kritikujem tu poziciju.

Pa super OK je to, problem je što ljevica praktično nema ekstreman stav...

To nije tačno, Jon Stewart je poimence nabrojao primere za to (mada se ne radi tu o "levici", već progresivnim liberalima. Levica ne igra u USA).

[mandingo]

Nigde nisam napisao da je FNC fer - ne znam da li je teško čitati moje postove ili šta, ali ako jeste, onda ih je bolje preskakati.Nigde ja nisam izjednačio Tea Party nisakim, zar je moguće da nije bilo jasno da upravo kritikujem tu poziciju.

Bilo je upuceno Rodjeru, nisam primetio da si ti postovao izmedju.

[Roger Sanchez]

To nije tačno, Jon Stewart je poimence nabrojao primere za to (mada se ne radi tu o "levici", već progresivnim liberalima. Levica ne igra u USA).

Matthewsa i Olbermana? Ti diletanti nisu sposobni za 1 kvalitetno pranje mozga, jednostavno je premala kvantiteta pa na vrh ne isplivaju jednako kvalitetni egzemplari. Da ne govorimo o tome koja i kakva para stoji iza Fauxa, a koja iza MSNBCa. Fox praktički već je dio infrastrukture GOPa, integracija je počela i na top-levelsima evo baš ove godine.Da malo ilustriram svježom salatom kristalkom kako i koliko je tzv. progresivni liberalizam u kurcu:

Republicans are hoping to ride a wave of economic fears and anti-Washington anger to a possible takeover of the House and at least several more seats in the Senate. They're certain to stand firm on their promise to extend the Bush-era tax cuts in their entirety. Democrats were divided on the issue even before the election.About three dozen mostly moderate House Democrats and a few Senate Democrats already oppose Obama's position on raising rates for the wealthy. So do Gov. Joe Manchin, D-W.Va., and Chris Coons, D-Del., who would immediately join the Senate if elected Tuesday. If the question were actually put to votes in Congress, the GOP might win.

Zanimljivo je kako su to moderate Demokratsi u newsspeaku. Reper za određivanje extrema je dakle odlično postavljen. I R2RS je oko toga napravio pomak od egzakli 0 milimetara..  Edited November 1, 2010 by Roger Sanchez