Izrael, Palestina i arapske zemlje

[Eraserhead]

Btw. iskrcali su se na Rachel Corrie sa dingieja u po bijela dana, posada nije pružala otpor nego je sit-inirala. I brod plovi u Ashdod.....

Pih kakvi su to humanitarci, ni štangle da potegnu. I šta će sad da se dogodi? Iz Ashdoda će roba ići u Gazu i svi srećni.

[Roger Sanchez]

Roba neće doći u Gazu, HAMAS neće human'tarnu koja je boravila u prljavom cionističkom Ashdodu.

[Eraserhead]

Roba neće doći u Gazu, HAMAS neće human'tarnu koja je boravila u prljavom cionističkom Ashdodu.

:DA da, zamišljam šta bi samo bilo da je situacija obrnuta. Da pored Palestinske dominantne države kojom upravlja Hamas postoji teritorija sa Jevrejima. Koliko li bi izdržali... Eh taj zli Izrael ne daje im osnovno ljudsko pravo, pravo da granairaju nekoga.

[Budja]

Eraser i Minka ujedinjeni.Ziveo novi svetki poredak!Sta smo docekali, da je Roger glas razuma na ovoj temi.Inace, pricilno dobar uvodnik u The Economist-u (za. divno cudo)

Israel and the worldIsrael's siege mentalityThe government’s macho attitude is actually making Israel weakerTHE lethal mishandling of Israel’s attack on a ship carrying humanitarian supplies that was trying to break the blockade of Gaza was bound to provoke outrage—and rightly so. The circumstances of the raid are murky and may well remain that way despite an inquiry (see article). But the impression received yet again by the watching world is that Israel resorts to violence too readily. More worryingly for Israel, the episode is accelerating a slide towards its own isolation. Once admired as a plucky David facing down an array of Arab Goliaths, Israel is now seen as the clumsy bully on the block.Israel’s desire to stop the flotilla reaching Gaza was understandable, given its determination to maintain the blockade. Yet the Israelis also had a responsibility to conduct the operation safely. The campaigners knew that either way they would win. If they had got through, it would have been a triumphant breaching of the blockade. If forcibly stopped, with their cargo of medical equipment and humanitarian aid, they would be portrayed as victims—even if some, as the Israelis contend, brought clubs, knives and poles. As it was, disastrous planning by Israel’s soldiers led to a needless loss of life.For anyone who cares about Israel, this tragedy should be the starting point for deeper questions—about the blockade, about the Jewish state’s increasing loneliness and the route to peace. A policy of trying to imprison the Palestinians has left their jailer strangely besieged.Losing friends, strengthening HamasThe blockade of Gaza is cruel and has failed. The Gazans have suffered sorely but have not been starved into submission. Hamas has not been throttled and overthrown, as Israeli governments (and many others) have wished. Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soldier taken hostage, has not been freed. Weapons and missiles can still be smuggled in through tunnels from Egypt.Just as bad, from Israel’s point of view, it helps feed antipathy towards Israel, not just in the Arab and Muslim worlds, but in Europe too. Israel once had warm relations with a ring of non-Arab countries in the vicinity, including Iran and Turkey. The deterioration of Israel’s relations with Turkey, whose citizens were among the nine dead, is depriving Israel of a rare Muslim ally and mediator. It is startling how, in its bungled effort to isolate Gaza, democratic Israel has come off worse than Hamas, which used to send suicide-bombers into restaurants.Most telling of all are the stirrings of disquiet in America, Israel’s most steadfast ally. Americans are still vastly more sympathetic to the Israelis than to the Palestinians. But a growing number, especially Democrats, including many liberal Jews, are getting queasier about what they see as America’s too robotic support for Israel, especially when its government is as hawkish as Binyamin Netanyahu’s. A gap in sympathy for Israel has widened between Democrats and Republicans. Conservatives still tend to back Israel through hell and the high seas. Barack Obama is more conscious that the Palestinians’ failure to get a state is helping to spread anti-American poison across the Muslim world, making it harder for him to deal with Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan. His generals have strenuously made that point. None other than the head of Israel’s Mossad, its foreign intelligence service, declared this week that America has begun to see Israel more as a burden than an asset.That has led to the charge by hawkish American Republicans, as well as many Israelis, that Mr Obama is bent on betraying Israel. In fact, he is motivated by a harder-nosed appreciation of the pros and cons of America’s cosiness with Israel, and is thus all the keener to prod the Jewish state towards giving the Palestinians a fair deal. He has condemned the building of Jewish settlements on Palestinian territory more bluntly than his predecessors did, because he rightly thinks they make it harder to negotiate a peace deal. Mr Obama’s greater sternness towards Israel is for the general good—including Israel’s.Harmony is not just a dreamIsrael is caught in a vicious circle. The more its hawks think the outside world will always hate it, the more it tends to shoot opponents first and ask questions later, and the more it finds that the world is indeed full of enemies. Though Mr Netanyahu has reluctantly agreed to freeze settlement-building and is negotiating indirectly with Palestinians, he does not give the impression of being willing to give ground in the interests of peace.Yet the prospect of a deal between Palestinians and Israelis still beckons. The contours of a two-state solution remain crystal-clear: an adjusted border, with Israel keeping some of the biggest settlements while Palestine gets equal swaps of land; Jerusalem shared as a capital, with special provisions for the holy places; and an admission by Palestinians that they cannot return to their old homes in what became Israel in 1948, with some theoretical right of return acknowledged by Israel and a small number of refugees let back without threatening the demographic preponderance of Jewish Israelis.And what about Hamas, if Israel is to lift the siege of Gaza? How should Israel handle an authoritarian movement that refuses to recognise it and has in the past readily used terror? One answer is to ask the UN to oversee the flow of goods and people going in and out of Gaza. That is hardly a cure-all, but Hamas would become the world’s problem neighbour, not just Israel’s. The Arab world must do more, pressing Hamas to disavow violence, publicly pledge not to resume the firing of rockets at Israeli civilians and revoke its anti-Semitic charter. The West, led by Mr Obama, should call for Hamas to be drawn into negotiations, both with its rival Palestinians on the West Bank as well as with Israel, even if it does not immediately recognise the Jewish state. It is still the party the Palestinians elected in 2006 to represent all of them. None of this will be easy. But the present stalemate is bloodily leading nowhere.Israel is a regional hub of science, business and culture. Despite its harsh treatment of Palestinians in the land it occupies, it remains a vibrant democracy. But its loneliness, partly self-inflicted, is making it a worse place, not just for the Palestinians but also for its own people. If only it can replenish its stock of idealism and common sense before it is too late.

[minka]

... Evo jos malo za vrednice...GUARDIAN (ocekujem odgovore tipa: dada, Freedman je jevrejin koga placa mosad, pa pristedite sebi vreme i tastaturu)

Očekivan je angažman svih službenih i neslužbenih advokata Izraela, pa i Freedmana. Očekivan je i riječnik (activist agressors, there is not a country on earth that would not take similar steps to protect its people, etc.).

Ovo se zove biti procitan unapred :Pelem, kao sto vidimo iz slucaja ovog poslednjeg broda, IDF ne ubija humanitarne radnike, brod je mirno pristao u luku, tovar je pregledan, bice prosledjen u Gazu...Ali gle cuda!!!! Hamas nece humanitarnu pomoc!:rolf:Ne pada sneg da pokrije breg, vec da svaka zverka pokaze svoj trag.

Eraser i Minka ujedinjeni...

Kad se dvojica ljudi toliko razlicitih pogleda na svet sloze oko ovakve jedne stvari, ocigledno je gde je istina, zar ne? Edited June 5, 2010 by minka

[Аврам Гојић]

na kraju ce ispasti da su aktivisti pobili IDF-ovceNine Turkish men on board the Mavi Marmara were shot a total of 30 times and five were killed by gunshot wounds to the head, according to the vice-chairman of the Turkish council of forensic medicine, which carried out the autopsies for the Turkish ministry of justice today.The results revealed that a 60-year-old man, Ibrahim Bilgen, was shot four times in the temple, chest, hip and back. A 19-year-old, named as Fulkan Dogan, who also has US citizenship, was shot five times from less that 45cm, in the face, in the back of the head, twice in the leg and once in the back. Two other men were shot four times, and five of the victims were shot either in the back of the head or in the back, said Yalcin Buyuk, vice-chairman of the council of forensic medicine.

Edited June 5, 2010 by vasudeva418

[hazard]

Nezavisno od toga ko je upravu, sta je istina, ko zasluzuje sta, ko su dobri momci a ko prljavi i zli, meni je apsolutno fascinantno to sto neki ljudi predstavljajuci se kao neki aktivisti uzimaju za shodno da se direktno mesaju u tamo neciji tudji rat. I jos onda da se iscudjavaju i da se zale kada dobiju po turu. Ej, upadas u ratnu zonu, ovi se tamo kolju i ubijaju, granatiraju, a ti, neki potpuno levi lik mozda i sa druge strane sveta, tu nesto upadas i glumis nekakav faktor. Jbt. Ljudska ludost me uvek nanovo iznenadjuje. Kao ta pokojna Rachel Corrie koja otisla u grupu aktivista koji su pokusavali da nenasilno pruze nekakav otpor izraelskoj VOJSCI, jbt, koja inace u tom trenutku ratuje. I jos ona koja je nasla za shodno da bude ljudski stit vojnom buldozeru. I onda kao, vidi, poginula je. Ma sta mi rece? Sta ti ljudi duvaju?

[Аврам Гојић]

da, zamisli, nenasilni otpor i davanje zivota za neku ideju, bez zrtvovanja tudjih zivota, je nesto zapanjujuce, nad cime se normalan covek mora zgrazavati. svasta s tim ljudima. Sila Boga ne moli, ne moze kus sa rogatim, ko zna za sta je to dobro, sedi di si ni za di si nisi.cek malo, kakva ratna zona te spopala?

Edited June 5, 2010 by vasudeva418

[pacey defender]

Nezavisno od toga ko je upravu, sta je istina, ko zasluzuje sta, ko su dobri momci a ko prljavi i zli, meni je apsolutno fascinantno to sto neki ljudi predstavljajuci se kao neki aktivisti uzimaju za shodno da se direktno mesaju u tamo neciji tudji rat. I jos onda da se iscudjavaju i da se zale kada dobiju po turu. Ej, upadas u ratnu zonu, ovi se tamo kolju i ubijaju, granatiraju, a ti, neki potpuno levi lik mozda i sa druge strane sveta, tu nesto upadas i glumis nekakav faktor. Jbt. Ljudska ludost me uvek nanovo iznenadjuje. Kao ta pokojna Rachel Corrie koja otisla u grupu aktivista koji su pokusavali da nenasilno pruze nekakav otpor izraelskoj VOJSCI, jbt, koja inace u tom trenutku ratuje. I jos ona koja je nasla za shodno da bude ljudski stit vojnom buldozeru. I onda kao, vidi, poginula je. Ma sta mi rece? Sta ti ljudi duvaju?

U koju to ratnu zonu je upao ovaj brod? Jesu li u medjuvremenu medjunarodne vode proglasene ratnom zonom, ako se nalaze u blizini ratne zone?edit> vode, ne borbe. Edited June 5, 2010 by pacey defender

[Mostly harmless]

Koliko ja znam, taj buldozer je rusio Palestinske kuce, pa nije bas da je stala ispred tenka u sred borbe. To nije rat vec izivljavanje. Kljucno u tvojoj recenici je "...grupu aktivista koji su pokusavali da nenasilno pruze nekakav otpor". I kako dolikuje, IDF je odlucio da je zgazi. Problem solved.

[Аврам Гојић]

podsmevanje nekome ko je poginuo pri nenasilnom protestu, potpuno svestan rizika koji preuzima na sebe, je nesto sto me je cak i na ovom topicu iznenadilo. ali ajde, prihvaticu to kao manifestaciju jedne opcinjenosti silinom i okrutnoscu i ozbiljnoscu drzave Izrael, Lazanski style.

Edited June 5, 2010 by vasudeva418

[hazard]

Ratna zona je Gaza, koja je da fakto ratna zona vec 10 i vise godina. A ovi su imali cistu nameru da se u tu zonu upute. I onda se cude sto ih presrece vojni brod. Zamisli, krenuo si da se mesas u neciji rat, pa te jedna od zaracenih strana zaustavlja? Bas cudno...nema logike uopste...ma ne, ne ko bi rekao. Pazite, uopste ne ulazim u raspravu ko je upravu, da li je Izrael postupio kako treba ili ne...nego me jednostavno cudi kako to neko zamislja da uleti u sred tudjeg konflikta a da mi pride ne zafali dlaka s glave.vasudeva, ajde molim te...sad se tamo neki americki student nadje za kvalifikovanog da odlucuje ko su "dobri" a ko "losi" momci i sta i kako i na ciju stranu treba stati...ajde sad. Dodajmo da se pola njih nakaci na tu ideju samo da bi imali neku ideju da se nakace...pa da bi mogli da glume neke face...plus ode tamo recimo da rizikuje svoj zivot (kao ta Corrie) a onda ih i sami Palestinci gledaju ispod oka jer su im sumnjivi...mesanje u konflikt gde objektivno nema dobrih, samo losih i losih (moje licno vidjenje konflikta Izrael-Palestina), i koji se medjusobno mrze, a ti sad tu kao glumis neku moralisticku ideju...gluposti. Jedno je mesati se na taj nacin u neke "ciste" konflikte, a la neki ludi diktator protiv svog naroda itd...ali mesati se u ovakve, u sustini, plemenske ratove? Bezveze...

[pacey defender]

podsmevanje nekome ko je poginuo pri nenasilnom protestu, potpuno svestan rizika koji preuzima na sebe, je nesto sto me je cak i na ovom topicu iznenadilo. ali ajde, prihvaticu to kao manifestaciju jedne opcinjenosti silinom i okrutnoscu i ozbiljnoscu drzave Izrael, Lazanski style.

Interesantno, ta opcinjenost silinom i okrutnoscu, Lazanski style, da te citiram, vezana je samo za Izrael. Kada recimo neka slicna silina i okrutnost zveknu po tvojoj lubanji, onda odjednom vise nema divljenja sili, nego sprovodilac sile postaje zlocinacka soldateska. Zato mislim da ovde nije po sredi samo divljenje prema silini i okrutnosti kao takvima, vec da postoje neki drugi razlozi. Jedan razlog koji primecujem je vrlo trivijalan - veliki broj ljudi koji afirmativno govori o aktivnostima Izraela u sukobu sa Palestinom ima neko Jevrejsko poreklo. Sto situaciju cini dosta bljutavijom jer se argumentacija obicno uzdize na nivo principa. Ne kazem da je u slucaju ovdasnjih forumasa to tako; ne pada mi na pamet da nagadjam neciju etnicku/religijsku pripadnost. Nego samo uopsteno komentarisem. Edited June 5, 2010 by pacey defender

[salkodinamitas]

na kraju ce ispasti da su aktivisti pobili IDF-ovceNine Turkish men on board the Mavi Marmara were shot a total of 30 times and five were killed by gunshot wounds to the head, according to the vice-chairman of the Turkish council of forensic medicine, which carried out the autopsies for the Turkish ministry of justice today.The results revealed that a 60-year-old man, Ibrahim Bilgen, was shot four times in the temple, chest, hip and back. A 19-year-old, named as Fulkan Dogan, who also has US citizenship, was shot five times from less that 45cm, in the face, in the back of the head, twice in the leg and once in the back. Two other men were shot four times, and five of the victims were shot either in the back of the head or in the back, said Yalcin Buyuk, vice-chairman of the council of forensic medicine.

Dok sam na snimku gledao kao onog vojnika mlate motkama dok on pokušava bezuspešno da pobegne pao mi je na pamet onaj naš žandar koji je svesno bacio pištolj preko ograde da bi ga "Pravda za Uroša" pržio naživo. Čovek će verovatno doživotno ostati fizički i psihički unakažen, teško da mu se ljudi i imena sećaju dok nas svaki dan sa zidova tužno lice Uroševo podseća na njegovo paćeništvo i herojsku borbu protiv zlog režima. Zašto je onda teško shvatiti da se među vojnicima našao neki koji je odabrao drugi put i pritisnuo okidač? I koliko god krivi bili idioti koji su vojnike poslali teško da možeš imati bolje mišljenje o ovima koji su napaljene klince organizovali i poslali znajući da je velika šansa da nastradaju? Njihova dupeta su na sigurno i sada mogu da tužno tule o zlim Židovima. Ma lutke

[расејан]

Ljudska ludost me uvek nanovo iznenadjuje. Kao ta pokojna Rachel Corrie koja otisla u grupu aktivista koji su pokusavali da nenasilno pruze nekakav otpor izraelskoj VOJSCI, jbt, koja inace u tom trenutku ratuje. I jos ona koja je nasla za shodno da bude ljudski stit vojnom buldozeru. I onda kao, vidi, poginula je. Ma sta mi rece? Sta ti ljudi duvaju™?

Поверовали су да "цео свет вас посматра" нешто значи Израелу. Којег боли патка, јер има цео амерички конгрес у џепу, гомилу банака и чега све још.