Izrael, Palestina i arapske zemlje

[Barrister]

Ja sam se nekoliko puta ogradio od svakog prebacivanja odgovornosti na posadu, a što je postupak te iste posade tabu tema o kojoj se ne sme pričati, nije moja krivica.

Nije tabu tema, ali u nekim postovima se priča o postupku posade tako da prozilazi da su oni trebali da se ponašaju onako kako Izrael misli da treba da se ponašaju pa da ne budu likvidirani. Ono što je ovde bitno da je Izrael okupaciona sila, i da je bio u pitanju potpuno legitiman protest protiv blokade Gaze. Bio bi legitiman i da se brod nalazio u teritorijalnim vodama Izraela tj Gaze. To da li ja smatram da je postupak posade racionalan ili ne, apsolutno nema nikakav značaj za ocenu postupka Izraela.

[Utvara]

Nije tabu tema, ali u nekim postovima se priča o postupku posade tako da prozilazi da su oni trebali da se ponašaju onako kako Izrael misli da treba da se ponašaju pa da ne budu likvidirani. Ono što je ovde bitno da je Izrael okupaciona sila, i da je bio u pitanju potpuno legitiman protest protiv blokade Gaze. Bio bi legitiman i da se brod nalazio u teritorijalnim vodama Izraela tj Gaze. To da li ja smatram da je postupak posade racionalan ili ne, apsolutno nema nikakav značaj za ocenu postupka Izraela.

Legitimno, legalno, nelegitimno, da se brod nalazio u teritorijalnim vodama Izraela, mogli bi hipotetički da izvrše kakav god hoće abordaž i "Visit, board, search and seizure operations" kako im se prohte. Njihovo pravo. I opet se to svodi na isto. 10 km tamo vamo, jasno je da ovi ne bi pustili konvoj da prodje tek tako. Edited June 1, 2010 by Utvara

[Vasilij Zajcev]

Imam utisak da ti uopste nisi procitao moj post...

u pravu si, i izvinjavam se. preleteo sam preko tvog posta i pomislio da tvrdis da Izrael nije lak na obaracu...inace, poostrava se retorika zvanicne Ankare, a bogami dolaze i novi brodovi sa humanitarnom pomoci

[Eraserhead]

Meni jedino nije jasno kako je to Izrael okupaciona sila u pojasu Gaze. Izrael se iz Gaze povukao zajedno sa civilima još 2005. Nakon što su građani Gaze izabrali terorističku organizaciju koja ne priznaje postojanje Izraela na izborima Izrael je pošto ne postoji mogućnost da se Gazi uvedu sankcije da bi sebe zaštitio uveo kontrolu ulaska i izlaska u Gazu. To je takođe uradio i Egipat.Protest je legitiman, ali nije legitimno odbijanje saradnje i napadi na vojnike pa makar to bilo u međunarodnim vodama. Opet da se ne ponavljam, Izrael je izabrao pogrešan način da se s ovom krizom suoči.EDIT: Vidim da se pišu novi prilozi za istoriju glupih ideja sa novim brodovima. Samo što je sada umesto 6 u pitanju jedan brod.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Eraserhead

[Barrister]

Meni jedino nije jasno kako je to Izrael okupaciona sila u pojasu Gaze. Izrael se iz Gaze povukao zajedno sa civilima još 2005. Nakon što su građani Gaze izabrali terorističku organizaciju koja ne priznaje postojanje Izraela na izborima Izrael je pošto ne postoji mogućnost da se Gazi uvedu sankcije da bi sebe zaštitio uveo kontrolu ulaska i izlaska u Gazu. To je takođe uradio i Egipat.Protest je legitiman, ali nije legitimno odbijanje saradnje i napadi na vojnike pa makar to bilo u međunarodnim vodama. Opet da se ne ponavljam, Izrael je izabrao pogrešan način da se s ovom krizom suoči.EDIT: Vidim da se pišu novi prilozi za istoriju glupih ideja sa novim brodovima. Samo što je sada umesto 6 u pitanju jedan brod.

Pa ni Izrael nije priznao palestinsku državu zar ne? I "kontrola ulaska i izlaska" je samo eufemizam za blokadu, s obzirom da u Gazu može da uđe samo ono što Izrael dozvoli (a spisak stvari za koje Izrael smatra ne smeju da uđu je veoma veliki), a iz Gaze ne može da izađe bilo ko.To što su osobe koje su upale na brod nosile uniforme ne znači ništa. U pitanju je obično piratstvo. A i kao što rekoh radi se o okupacionoj vosjci.

[Shan Jan]

Ja sam se nekoliko puta ogradio od svakog prebacivanja odgovornosti na posadu, a što je postupak te iste posade tabu tema o kojoj se ne sme pričati, nije moja krivica.

A ti curice sledeci put kad te sacekaju u mraku ovako da radis... Jeste tabu tema i da, to nije tvoja krivica. Iz nekog razloga drugim ljudima je tabu da popuju zrtvama kako su trebali da se ponasaju.

Protest je legitiman, ali nije legitimno odbijanje saradnje i napadi na vojnike pa makar to bilo u međunarodnim vodama.

Eraser sta te je spopalo?

[najgori]

proverio sam malo uputstva o postupanju broda u slucaju napada pirata i na osnovu postojecih snimaka posada nije postupala prema preporukama medjunarodnih organizacija. preporuka je da kad pirati upadnu na brod posada ne pruza otpor.sa druge strane, ovde je rec o gusarima, a ne piratima, tako da je za zrtve i stetu odgovorna drzava izrael. mislim da nema suda koji izrael moze da oslobodi odgovornosti.ono sto mi nije jasno je po kom zakonu drzava izrael kontrolise teritorijalne vode gaze?da li je gaza teritorija koja je predata izraelu na upravljanje?

[Muwan]

A ti curice sledeci put kad te sacekaju u mraku ovako da radis... Jeste tabu tema i da, to nije tvoja krivica. Iz nekog razloga drugim ljudima je tabu da popuju zrtvama kako su trebali da se ponasaju.

Ne znam čemu to uporno povlačenje paralele sa silovanjem ali nema veze. Moja poenta je da u ovakvim situacijama mnogo toga zavisi od ljudskog faktora i samim tim mali milion stvari može da krene naopako. U svakom slučaju, istakao bih još dve stvari:- pre nego što nastavimo sa raspravom na temu "prekomerna sila ili brutalna egzekucija", bilo bi dobro da sačekamo makar neka svedočenja preživelih, neku svežu informaciju. Ovo što za sada imamo je šturo i cenzurisano, i ne govori nam mnogo.- uopšte, rasprava na temu "prekomerna sila ili brutalna egzekucija" je spin sa prave teme. A prava tema je smišljena usmerenost ove akcije protiv Turske i, konsekventno, Irana. Kao i komplikacije koje će sada nastati u Turskoj zbog ovoga, uz moguće nove incidente.

[koksy]

ono sto mi nije jasno je po kom zakonu drzava izrael kontrolise teritorijalne vode gaze?da li je gaza teritorija koja je predata izraelu na upravljanje?

prilicno mi pripadne muka kad pocnemo da se frljacimo sa medjunarodnim pravom, ujedinjenim nacijama, savetom bezbednosti... hocu reci, veruje li jos iko da ovi pojmovi imaju ikakvu tezinu?

[luba]

svedocenja pristizu, a srdjan stojiljkovic, kamerman odavde, trebalo bi da bude pusten i proteran veceras. proslo mi je kroz ruke/komp oko 80 svedocenja, ni u jednom se ne pominje pucnjava ili nozevi sa brodova.jos se ne zna da li je sved menkel pusten ili ne.

Real bullets and electroshocks: witnesses tell of Gaza raid BERLIN, June 1, 2010 (AFP) - Shocked activists Tuesday recounted how Israeli troops stormed on deck firing tear gas, electroshock weapons and real bullets at unarmed passengers as they raided the ill-fated Gaza aid flotilla. Israel has blamed activists on the lead ship, the Mavi Marmara, for the deadly outcome to Monday's pre-dawn raid, saying they attacked soldiers with clubs and knives as they boarded. But a group of German witnesses who experienced the assault first hand before being detained and deported denied anyone on board was armed with more than a few wooden sticks. "Personally I saw two and a half wooden batons that were used ... There was really nothing else. We never saw any knives," Norman Paech, a 72-year-old former member of parliament told reporters in Berlin. "The Israeli government justifies the raid because they were attacked. This is absolutely not the case," said Paech, wrapped in a blue blanket and visibly shaken by the bloody outcome to the mission "This was not an act of self-defence." A German doctor on the ship, Matthias Jochheim, who had bloodstains on his trousers from people he treated, said he had personally seen four dead people and expected the total death toll to be 15. The Israeli military says nine passengers were killed in the fight. Paech, a former MP from the far-left Die Linke party, said he took photographic evidence but that his camera had been confiscated. He denied Israel's suggestion that passengers had been lying in ambush. "We had not prepared in any way to fight. We didn't even consider it," he added. "No violence, no resistance -- because we knew very well that we would have absolutely no chance against soldiers like this. "This was an attack in international waters on a peaceful mission... This was a clear act of piracy," he added. The former MP's comments were backed up by two others on board the convoy, MPs Inge Hoeger, 59, and Annette Groth, 56. "We felt like we were in a war, like we were being kidnapped," Hoeger said. "Nobody had a weapon." Australia's Foreign Minister Stephen Smith told parliament an Australian man on board the main ship had undergone surgery after being shot in the leg. The Mavi Marmara was one of six ships carrying some 10,000 tonnes of supplies to Gaza, which has been under a crippling Israeli blockade since 2007 when the Islamist Hamas movement seized control of the territory. A Greek activist on one of the smaller boats, the Eleftheri Mesogeio, said Israeli troops used rubber bullets, tear gas and electroshock weapons to subdue those aboard. Commandos jumped onto the ship at around 0530 GMT, an hour after the clashes on the Mavi Marmara, he said. "They fired rubber coated bullets, tear gas and then used electroshock weapons on some activists," he told Skai television after Israel deported him and five compatriots to Athens. A Frenchman detained on another of the six ships told reporters his fellow passengers offered no resistance to arrest. "The instructions were clear. Do not provoke, remain calm and go to meet them (the commandos) saying 'We are pacifists and not terrorists'," Youssef Benderbal said after arriving at a Paris airport. "Masked commandos took possession of the ship. They were aiming for the captain's cabin," said Benderbal, a member of a French aid group for Palestinians. Israel detained 686 passengers after the raid. As first-hand accounts began to emerge from deported activists, hundreds of foreign nationals were still being held. They include aid workers and at least three reporters -- two Australians and a Spaniard -- who have refused to sign their deportation papers. The Greek passenger Grigoropoulos said he was kept incommunicado in "wretched detention conditions" at the Israeli port of Ashdod, denied access to a lawyer and made to sign papers he did not understand. He also said "two Greek activists were beaten up" there by Israeli police. In Britain, relatives of several dozen Britons on board the flotilla waited anxiously for news of their loved ones. "It's absolutely terrible not knowing what has happened to him and it's terrible that the British government hasn't done more but they don't want to fall out with Israel," said Rachel Bridgeland, whose partner was on board.

[Muwan]

E, da, fascinantno je da Izrael drži u pritvoru bezmalo 700 ljudi raznoraznih nacionalnosti, a da gotovo i nema zahteva da oni odmah budu oslobođeni. Čekaju proterivanje iz Izraela nakon što su kidnapovani u međunarodnim vodama, među njima ima nobelovaca jbt, i niko da se za njih malo oštrije založi kod kidnapera. Potpuno neverovatno.

Edited June 1, 2010 by beowl

[najgori]

prilicno mi pripadne muka kad pocnemo da se frljacimo sa medjunarodnim pravom, ujedinjenim nacijama, savetom bezbednosti... hocu reci, veruje li jos iko da ovi pojmovi imaju ikakvu tezinu?

pitam jer ne znam, a ne zbog tezine ili lakoce. gaza ima izlaz na more, a neko je gore napisao da su to teritorijalne vode izraela. izraelci kazu da je gaza pod njihovim sankcijama sto mogu da rade sa kopna, ali sta je sa morem?da ponovim pitanje: da li gaza ima teritorijalne vode?

[luba]

E, da, fascinantno je da Izrael drži u pritvoru bezmalo 700 ljudi raznoraznih nacionalnosti, a da gotovo i nema zahteva da oni odmah budu oslobođeni. Čekaju proterivanje iz Izraela nakon što su kidnapovani u međunarodnim vodama, među njima ima nobelovaca jbt, i niko da se za njih malo oštrije založi kod kidnapera. Potpuno neverovatno.

ma bune se, nije da se ne bune, nego sto su ih sve smestili u bersevu, a tamo, ako je verovati izvestajima, ima ukupno 12 "immigration" sudija, koji jedini imaju pravo da ih obrade.

Israel has deported dozens of activists but was still holding hundreds more on Tuesday, one day after commandos killed nine people when they stormed aid ships trying to break the blockade of Gaza. Of the 682 people from 42 countries aboard the six ships that were towed to an Israeli port, 45 agreed to be deported immediately and were flown out Monday and Tuesday, said immigration police spokeswoman Sabine Hadad. All the others were taken to Beersheva jail in southern Israel, where immigration judges will process them for deportation she said. "By law it should take just a few days," said Hadad. Forty-eight foreigners were being treated in Israeli hospitals, as were six of the soldiers who boarded the flotilla, public radio said. Turkey said that it was sending three ambulance planes to Israel to bring home 20 of its citizens who were among those wounded. Of the total number of people who were onboard the boats, 380 are Turkish, 38 from Greece, 31 from Britain, 30 from Jordan, 28 from Algeria, with a few from Australia, Italy, Indonesia, Ireland and other countries, Hadad said. At least four Turks were among nine people killed in the raid commandos conducted in international waters, according to a Turkish diplomat, while 19 Turks were reportedly among those already sent home. Those in detention apparently are refusing to sign expulsion orders. Irish Foreign Minister Micheal Martin demanded the unconditional release of the seven Irish citizens detained. "The seven individuals concerned did not enter Israel illegally; rather they were essentially seized from international waters, taken into Israel and asked to sign documents confirming that they entered illegally," he said.

ne mogu da se setim od kad tacno vazi ovo da potpises deportaciju, cini mi se od 2008. ali pretpostavljam da vecina ne zeli da potpise jer tako vise nikada ne bi imali pravo da udju u gazu. to jest, takvo pravilo vazi za novinare, pretpostavljam da je za aktiviste jos i cvrsce.

[luba]

pitam jer ne znam, a ne zbog tezine ili lakoce. gaza ima izlaz na more, a neko je gore napisao da su to teritorijalne vode izraela. izraelci kazu da je gaza pod njihovim sankcijama sto mogu da rade sa kopna, ali sta je sa morem?da ponovim pitanje: da li gaza ima teritorijalne vode?

nema.ribari smeju da love/pecaju samo do tri nauticke milje od obale. sve ostalo je pod kontrolom izraela.prilicno detaljno opisano sve

[najgori]

hvala, nasao sam i zabranu plovidbe na sajtu izraelskog ministarstva saobracaja.izgleda da je izrael napravio gazu kao eksperiment iz sociologije ili neku vrstu zooloskog vrta.da danas postoji iii rajh sa palestincima umesto jevreja, drzava izrael i iii rajh bi bili strateski partneri.

Edited June 1, 2010 by najgori