Izrael, Palestina i arapske zemlje

[cedo]

8 minutes ago, Roger Sanchez said:

Više David Zaslav kreira spoljnu politiku nego obratno

 

ma  ....

ono je rts dnevnik devedesetih

ne znam kako je bilo na hrt-u. otis'o sam  

 

[vememah]

 

 

 

 

  

 

Quote

On Wednesday, four Palestine Red Crescent emergency medical workers were killed when their ambulances were hit in two different incidents. Their colleagues clung to each other afterwards, shaking with sobs, video posted by Palestine Red Crescent showed.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-rescue-workers-scared-exhausted-under-israels-air-strikes-2023-10-13/

 

Quote

Doctors Without Borders, (Medecins sans Frontieres, also known by its acronym MSF), said it had counted 16 medical personnel killed since Saturday, 18 ambulances destroyed and eight medical facilities damaged either totally or partially.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/12/war-crime-gaza-medics-say-israel-targeting-ambulances-health-facilities

Edited October 15, 2023 by vememah

[Eleniko]

brat janis kida kada je drama

 

jači mu je ovaj današnji tekst u kome ukazuje na očigledno /kao i par forumaša ovde/, da su koreni izraelskog ekstremizma u evropi

 

https://www.yanisvaroufakis.eu/2023/10/15/why-i-refuse-to-condemn-hamas-or-the-israeli-settlers-but-instead-insist-that-the-culprits-for-the-atrocities-in-israel-palestine-are-us-europeans-and-americans/

 

Why I refuse to condemn Hamas or the Israeli settlers but insist that we, Europeans & Americans, are the culprits for the atrocities in Israel-Palestine

 

15/10/2023 by Yanis Varoufakis

 

When Hamas launched its offensive into Israel, appalled by the butchery and the human toll it would bring on, I tried to pierce through the fog of war, through all the fear and all the loathing, and to focus instead on what could end the endless cycle of inhumanity. What was its root cause? Hamas? The Israeli settlers? Netanyahu? The Palestinian Authority? Israelis? Palestinians? No. While all of the above are actors in a vile drama, they are not its author, its creator. Who, or what, is?

Spoiler

My answer: The decade-long construction of a permanent, ironclad Apartheid. Apartheid IS violence! That’s the root cause of the endless violence. And, so, my first comment immediately after the brutal Hamas Offensive (on 7th October) read thus: “The path to ending the tragic loss of innocent lives – both Palestinian and Israeli – begins with one crucial first step: the end of the Israeli Occupation and Apartheid.”

On 8th October, during an interview in Berlin (click adjacent icon and read the full text below), I refused to condemn either Hamas or the Israeli settlers committing atrocities across Israel-Palestine. Instead, I condemned us, Europeans and Americans, as the true villains who, for decades, we stood idly by while the underlying cause of these atrocities, Apartheid, became a fait accompli.

Why did I not take the easier route of, on the one hand, condemning Hamas and, on the other, championing the rights of Palestinians? Because I wanted to make the point that it is we, Europeans and Americans, who must be condemned. Because it is we, Europeans and Americans, who, with our patronisingly ritual moralistic condemnations (whether one-sided or equidistant), have been making Peace impossible in Israel-Palestine.

Let me explain why I say this. Why do I condemn us, Europeans and Americans, rather than Hamas, settlers, Netanyahu or any of the other actors in this drama? Because we have allowed our governments to allow successive Israeli governments to believe that, instead of a Peace Treaty, Israel can contain the Palestinians behind fences and a whole architecture of Apartheid either to keep them there as sub-humans or to cause them gradually to leave for distant lands. Because we have allowed Israel to force upon Palestinians a cruel dilemma: Either die a terrible, silent, gradual collective death or take up arms and, often, take with them innocent people.

How are we, Europeans and Americans, allowing this? We allow this by keeping dead quiet when Palestinians are suffering killings, evictions, war crimes. By dismissing Israeli war crimes (like those committed now that Gaza is being turned into a parking lot) as “inevitable”, as Acts of God – like a Volcano erupting as is its wont, as its nature dictates. And by issuing stern condemnations of Palestinians, calling them ‘animals’ and ‘savages’, when some of them lash out violently, brutally, in response to the slow genocide the Apartheid state is calculatingly foisting upon their families and communities. This stance of ours, with our ritualistic condemnations of Palestinian violence and acceptance of Israel’s right to commit war crimes in self-defence, is the perfect gift to the extremists on both sides: Hamas love us for it, since we confirm Western indifference to Palestinian suffering. Settlers and Netanyahu, on the other side, also love us for it, since it us a green light to reinforcing their Apartheid and ethnic cleansing program.

“But, Yanis”, friends and foes ask me “do you not have a moral duty to condemn Hamas’ atrocities?”

My answer to friends is unequivocal:

There is nothing that can justify deliberate violence against non-combatants. Attacking Israelis at a rave is wrong, bombing Palestinian hospitals is wrong, abducting Ukrainian children is wrong, torturing Russian prisoners is wrong… In fact the nationality, the identity, of the victim or of the attacker is utterly irrelevant. Either targeting innocents is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who does it, or you are indulging in selective outrage (e.g., Ursula von der Leyen) which is tantamount to excusing your side’s war crimes while strongly condemn the other side’s war crimes. This is the end of ethics, the end of any chance of International Law worth its name.

My answer to defenders of Israel’s right to impose Apartheid is also unequivocal:

If you did not condemn Israel’s killing of unarmed journalists, doctors and children, you lost the right to condemn Hamas’ atrocities now. The Geneva Convention on war crimes either applies to everyone or no-one. And anyone invoking it against the weak while exempting the powerful is committing an obscenity.

In summary, those who demand from me a condemnation of Hamas or of Israeli Settlers or of any of the belligerents in Israel-Palestine will not get it: Because such ritualistic condemnations by us, Europeans and Americans, throw fuel into the fire – they are part of the problem, not the solution. What we MUST do I explained in that controversial interview:

“This incredible tragedy must be converted into an opportunity for us Europeans [and Americans] to wake up and to redeem ourselves by demanding that we collectively take the first decisive step toward Peace. And that is the destruction of the state of apartheid. Just like we did in South Africa.”

In summary, it is precisely because I am appalled by the never-ending cycle of atrocities perpetrated by both sides that I refuse to participate in ritualistic selective moral outrage along with those who strategically turn a blind eye to the source of all atrocities: Israel’s Apartheid.

Frequent, pressing questions

Surely, Israel is nothing like South African Apartheid and Hamas is nothing like Mandela’s ANC!

Nelson Mandela was never in doubt that Palestinians lived under Apartheid. [He also knew well that Israel was, openly, the best ally of the White Supremacists in Pretoria.] Desmond Tutu, a hero of the anti-Apartheid movement in its place of origin, understood it also – and articulated it beautifully.

 

Hamas is of course nothing like the ANC. [I never said it was.] But Israel’s Apartheid is modelled on the Apartheid the ANC fought. The simple point here is that Apartheid (South African or Israeli) IS violence and, thus, begets violence. And the only way to stop violence is to end Apartheid – not moralistically to condemn violence while turning a blind eye to Apartheid.

Is Israel not engaged in a war for its very existence?

No, it is not. Israel is a nuclear-armed state with perhaps the most technologically advanced army in the world and the panoply of the US military machine (including aircraft carriers at the ready) having its back. There is no symmetry with Hamas, a group which can cause serious damage to Israelis but which has no capacity whatsoever to defeat Israel’s military, or even to prevent Israel from continuing to implement the slow genocide of Palestinians under the system of Apartheid that has been erected with long-standing US and EU support.

Are Israelis not justified to fear that Hamas wants to exterminate them?

Of course they are! Jews have suffered the Holocaust which was preceded with countless pogroms and a deep-seated antisemitism permeating Europe and the Americas for centuries. It is only natural that Israelis live in fear of a new pogrom if the Israeli army folds. However, by imposing Apartheid on their neighbours, by treating them like sub-humans, the Israeli state is stoking the fires of antisemitism, is strengthening Hamas and, in the end, contributes to the awful insecurity consuming Jews in Israel and the Diaspora. Apartheid against the Palestinians is not the Israelis’ best defence – to put it mildly.

What about antisemitism?

It is always a clear and present danger. And it must be eradicated, especially amongst the ranks of Palestinians fighting for their civil liberties – as well as from the hearts and minds of their supporters in the rest of the world. For my take on Antisemitism, please see this.

Do I condemn Hamas’ atrocities?

I condemn every single atrocity, whomever is the perpetrator or the victim. What I do not condemn is armed resistance to an Apartheid system designed as part of a slow-burning, but inexorable, ethnic cleansing program.

Why don’t Palestinians pursue their objectives by peaceful means?

They did. The PLO recognised Israel and renounced armed struggle. And what did they get for it? Absolute humiliation and systematic ethnic cleansing. That is what nurtured Hamas and elevated it in the eyes of many Palestinians as the only alternative to a slow genocide under Israel’s Apartheid.

What should be done now? What might bring Peace to Israel-Palestine?

An immediate ceasefire. The release of all hostages (Hamas’ and the thousands held by Israel). And a Peace Process, under the UN, supported by a commitment by the International Community to end Apartheid and to safeguard Equal Civil Liberties for All. As for what must replace Apartheid, it is up to Israelis and Palestinians to decide between the Two-State Solution and the solution of a Single Secular State. [For what it is worth, DiEM25’s position, which was reached after a long and energetic debate, was that the Two-State solution is now obsolete and a Single State with Equal Civil Rights for All is the most realistic solution. See this.

 

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Eleniko

[Roger Sanchez]

11 minutes ago, Eleniko said:

As for what must replace Apartheid, it is up to Israelis and Palestinians to decide between the Two-State Solution and the solution of a Single Secular State. [For what it is worth, DiEM25’s position, which was reached after a long and energetic debate, was that the Two-State solution is now obsolete and a Single State with Equal Civil Rights for All is the most realistic solution. See this.

Zaključak mu je međutim apsolutna lakrdija.

Single State with Equal Civil Rights for All ...

[Eleniko]

zaključak je idealistički da ne kažem idealan

[namenski]

6 minutes ago, Roger Sanchez said:

Zaključak mu je međutim apsolutna lakrdija.

+1

Ekstrakcija^tm nepodobnog dela populacije, pa jos sklonog ekscesima, se u praksi pokazala kao mnogo bolje resenje...  

[Budja]

19 minutes ago, Roger Sanchez said:

Zaključak mu je međutim apsolutna lakrdija.

Single State with Equal Civil Rights for All ...

 

Zato je Diem 25 na 0.00003%.

 

Arm chair levica.

[Roger Sanchez]

35 minutes ago, namenski said:

+1

Ekstrakcija^tm nepodobnog dela populacije, pa jos sklonog ekscesima, se u praksi pokazala kao mnogo bolje resenje...

Nekad nažalost taj nepodobni dio populacije NATO zlikovci nakon jedva dva mjeseca gotovo sav vrate natrag da nastavi raditi ekscese, zalud onda svi ti nadljudskim naporima organizovani vozovi u jednom smeru, liste s imenima i prezimenima i deseci hiljada kucanja na vrata

Edited October 15, 2023 by Roger Sanchez

[cedo]

nisam pametan gde ovo da turim, na hrvatsku ili ovu temu, pa cu na obe

 

 

[namenski]

5 minutes ago, Roger Sanchez said:

Nekad nažalost taj nepodobni dio populacije NATO zlikovci nakon jedva dva mjeseca gotovo sav vrate vrate natrag da nastave raditi ekscese, zalud onda svi ti nadljudskim naporima organizovani vozovi u jednom smeru, liste s imenima i prezimenima i deseci hiljada kucanja na vrata

Rodjere, dal' je moguce da se bas toliko pravis lud?

Ili smatras da nas citaju bas tolike veverice?

 

[Mr.Mxyzptlk]

2 hours ago, Svemir Zeka said:

Devojka koja je bila u jednom od napadnutih mesta i preživela, i daje obiman komentar o tome kakva im je i do tog dana bila svakodnevica.

pogledao sam nego do kraja nisam bio siguran dal je decko ili devojcica.

[copkillah]

Američkim medijima na dušu

 

[Roger Sanchez]

A u prvom redu Republikancima i njihovom vrhovnom zloduhu, Rupertu Murdochu

 

 

[Zaboravan]

26 minutes ago, Budja said:

 

Zato je Diem 25 na 0.00003%.

 

Arm chair levica.

 

[Roger Sanchez]

18 minutes ago, cedo said:

nisam pametan gde ovo da turim, na hrvatsku ili ovu temu, pa cu na obe

Meni je iznimno drago da imam ta dva ovna na brvnu i Šprajca, umjesto pi*koustog neprikosnovenog despota i njegove medije