Izrael, Palestina i arapske zemlje

[x500]

10 minutes ago, nautilus said:

neko prvi počeo sa poslednjom turom

Razumem logiku onoga sto si napisao, problem je u neprekidnom lancu osveta. Svako delovanje je posledica neceg pre toga ... I tako, u par koraka dodjes do 1947/8, pa onda jos par koraka i eto je 1917, pa do Rimljana, pa do ... Prve knjige :(

 

Spoiler

Nemam zelju da sirim pricu, seti se sudjenja Ajhmanu. Zasto mu je sudjeno? Mogli su da mu presude u Argenitini.

Njemu je sudjeno, izmedju ostalog, i da se naravi razlika izmedju dva sveta. 

Ako se ta razlika izbrise, onda vise nista nema smisla :(

 

 

[Tutankamon]

Video sam i ja taj snimak to je sa Hamasovog snimka upada u ja mislim neku od kasarni tj. uporista...taj je valjda ranjeni izraelski vojnik koga ubijaju...

[roux senyurt]

1 minute ago, Tutankamon said:

Video sam i ja taj snimak to je sa Hamasovog snimka upada u ja mislim neku od kasarni tj. uporista...taj je valjda ranjeni izraelski vojnik koga ubijaju...

ko ce ga znati, gadno je kako god okrenes. mislim ubij ga vatrenim oruzjem ako si vec toliko besan, zasto obezglavljivanje motikom

[vememah]

Quote

Hamas’s atrocities and Israel’s retaliation will change both sides for ever (...)
Ignore at your peril
Indeed, Israel is having to re-examine many long-held assumptions, most notably the belief that Gaza could safely be left to fester. After Hamas seized control of Gaza in 2007 from the Palestinian Authority (pa), the Palestinian government-in-waiting, Israel and Egypt drastically tightened border restrictions, asphyxiating Gaza’s economy. Despite the repeated bouts of violence since then, Israeli officials had come to think that Hamas had become more pragmatic. “Above all, they want to keep control of Gaza,” an army officer said last year. “To do that they need to improve the economy.” If Israel allowed Arab governments to bankroll basic social services in Gaza, the thinking ran, and issued more permits for Gazans to work in Israel, the territory would remain quiescent.

Not only was that view completely wrong, but Israel’s vaunted security services also failed to spot that an elaborate attack was in the works. Every phone call in Gaza is routed through Israeli networks, which simplifies eavesdropping. Drones frequently fly over the strip. Israel also has a vast network of informants in the territory—all to no avail.

Part of the problem, no doubt, was a conceptual failure: the belief that Hamas had lost interest in large-scale conflict. In fact, even some Hamas leaders seem surprised. Mr Abu Marzouk says he and other senior leaders in Qatar were not told about the attack in advance. Since 2017, when Yahya Sinwar became the leader of Hamas in Gaza, a small number of hardliners, mostly based in Gaza, have consolidated power.

A second error was the divide-and-rule policy towards the Palestinians of Binyamin Netanyahu, who has been Israel’s prime minister for 12 of the past 14 years. He has long sought to undermine the pa, which still runs parts of the West Bank. He has refused to resume peace negotiations since half-hearted talks broke down in 2014. He has frozen transfers of the tax revenues Israel collects on the pa’s behalf. At the same time, he has treated Hamas like a legitimate power in Gaza. In 2011, for instance, he approved a deal to swap 1,027 Palestinian prisoners for Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soldier the militants had captured in 2006. The exchange, naturally, raised Hamas’s standing among Palestinians.

For Mr Netanyahu, the logic was clear. The Palestinian Authority (PA) is committed to negotiating a two-state solution with Israel, which is anathema to the prime minister’s right-wing supporters. Undermining the PA and boosting its militant rival would help him to claim that Israel has no “partner for peace”. But Palestinians drew a different, if predictable lesson: that the only way to extract concessions from Israel is through force.

Hamas may now have overreached, however. Some observers believe it did not expect its assault to be so successful and is not sure how to proceed. It may have hoped to frighten Israel into concessions, but has instead steeled it for war. The Israeli army told foreign defence attachés on October 10th that its aim was to “eliminate” the leadership of Hamas. “The military end-goal is to destroy Hamas’s capability, no matter how long it takes,” the army said, according to someone who attended. That is easier said than done, though, as America learned during its long war in Afghanistan, or Israel during its 18-year occupation of southern Lebanon.

Even if Israel could uproot Hamas, no one is sure what would replace it. The PA is too weak to assert authority in Gaza; it is not even strong enough to control the West Bank, parts of which have fallen into anarchy. A plurality of Palestinians, and a majority of Gazans, want to dissolve it. Mahmoud Abbas, the 87-year-old president, has not set foot in Gaza in almost 20 years.

There has been some idle talk of sending Arab peacekeepers to secure Gaza, but few Arab regimes would want to do so. Egypt occupied Gaza from 1949 to 1967; both sides have bitter memories of that time. Gulf states such as Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates have no desire to rule over 2m Palestinians. Nor do most Israelis wish to reoccupy the territory.

To invade and then leave, however, would not change the status quo. Hamas’s leaders and a large proportion of its fighters are likely to emerge from their bunkers and restore control over the strip the minute the Israelis depart. That is an unpalatable outcome, but it is the most likely one. (...)

https://www.economist.com/briefing/2023/10/12/hamass-atrocities-and-israels-retaliation-will-change-both-sides-for-ever

Edited October 12, 2023 by vememah

[roux senyurt]

glede izvora, ovde se kace informacije sa raznih strana, od propalestinskih, preko al dzazire i zapadnih medijskih kuca, do zvanicne izrealske tviter stranice i svi se mogu svrstati u propagandu, ili medijski proizvod. 

[Zaboravan]

7 minutes ago, roux senyurt said:

ko ce ga znati, gadno je kako god okrenes. mislim ubij ga vatrenim oruzjem ako si vec toliko besan, zasto obezglavljivanje motikom

Skrnavljenje i ritualno poniženje protivnika, pomućena svest, bolesna mržnja itd. 

Ne pokušavaj razumeti... 

[nautilus]

41 minutes ago, x500 said:

Razumem logiku onoga sto si napisao, problem je u neprekidnom lancu osveta. Svako delovanje je posledica neceg pre toga ... I tako, u par koraka dodjes do 1947/8, pa onda jos par koraka i eto je 1917, pa do Rimljana, pa do ... Prve knjige :(

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Nemam zelju da sirim pricu, seti se sudjenja Ajhmanu. Zasto mu je sudjeno? Mogli su da mu presude u Argenitini.

Njemu je sudjeno, izmedju ostalog, i da se naravi razlika izmedju dva sveta. 

Ako se ta razlika izbrise, onda vise nista nema smisla :(

 

 

Nemam Ama baš nikakav problem u tome da Izrael pobije sve do poslednjeg pripadnika Hamasa. Nemam ni problem da Hamas isto učini IDFu.

 

Kod ubijanja beba svaki civilizovan čovek bi morao da ima problem koje god on vere ili nacije bio ili nebio ili koliko god poznavao istoriju ili pravo.

[vememah]

Quote

Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi has issued a stern warning about the current escalation in Gaza.

In statements on Tuesday, Sisi reaffirmed Egypt’s National Security being his top responsibility and that it “cannot be compromised or forfeited under any circumstance.”

He added that Egypt will not allow the termination of the Palestinian cause at the expense of other parties.

Sisi confirmed that his country is closely monitoring the developments in the region, particularly in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

“Egypt is intensifying its efforts at all levels to halt the current military confrontations, to spare the blood of the Palestinian people, and to protect civilians on both the Palestinian and Israeli sides,” said Sisi.

“Egypt affirms that a just and comprehensive peace based on a two-state solution is the way to achieve genuine and sustainable security for the Palestinian people.”

He added that “Egypt does not relinquish its commitments to Arab issues, with the Palestinian cause at the forefront.”

Sisi expressed Egypt’s hope for a resolution and settlement of the Palestinian cause “through negotiations leading to a just peace and the establishment of the Palestinian state.”

Regarding Egypt’s efforts to achieve a ceasefire, he said: “We are in communication with all international powers and all regional influential parties to reach an immediate cessation of violence and achieve a ceasefire to save the lives of civilians on both sides.”

At a time when there are increasing concerns about a potential mass Palestinian migration toward the Egyptian border with Gaza, Sisi emphasized that "there will be no compromise on Egypt’s national security under any circumstances, and the Egyptian people must be aware of the complexities of the situation and the magnitude of the threat.”

High-ranking Egyptian security sources have issued a warning through statements to Egyptian media.

They expressed concerns about what they described as “an attempt to push Palestinians in Gaza towards migrating to the Egyptian border due to the ongoing Israeli airstrikes in the strip.”

The sources emphasized that “Egyptian sovereignty is not to be violated.”

https://english.aawsat.com/arab-world/4598426-sisi-egypt-won’t-allow-termination-palestinian-cause-expense-other-parties

 

Quote

The UK will send surveillance aircraft and two Royal Navy ships to the eastern Mediterranean in plans “to support Israel", No 10 says.
The aircraft will begin patrols on Friday to "track threats to regional stability such as the transfer of weapons to terrorist groups".
The package includes surveillance assets, helicopters, P8 aircraft, and a company of marines.
Rishi Sunak said the military support would "prevent further escalation".
The British armed forces will be on standby to "deliver practical support to Israel and partners in the region, and offer deterrence and assurance", Downing Street said.
Under the plans, a Royal Navy task group will be moved to the area next week to support humanitarian efforts.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-67095846

Edited October 12, 2023 by vememah

[Anduril]

11 hours ago, Venom said:

Nije mi poznato da nešto postaje ratni zločin zavisno od toga ko je umešan.

Mene zabole za licemerje, jer da je do toga bilo bi ok da je Ursula rekla da Rusija ima pravo da prekida struju. Mene zanima da prestane da se opravdava masovno ubistvo civila i potpuni teror. I nije prvi put, više je konstantno već decenijama. Kako neko može da okreće glavu na to ne znam.

Bernie Sanders je imao dobar umereni komentar. Ali u ovakvoj situaciji on je ekstremista. Seci struju, bombarduj, ruši, ubijaj, civilizovani svet kaže da je to sve ok. 

 

Cekaj, pre tri dana i pre zlocinackog bombardovanja Gaze napisao si da je to bila osveta za decenijsku izraelsku represiju. Plus, sta oni imaju da idu na zurke pored Gaze.

Vidis, ja problem jednostavno ne vidim tako jednostrano niti mislim da bilo sta opravdava onaj masakr niti ga samo represija objasnjava.

Za mene su glavni problem ekstremisti sa obe strane koji su navlasti bez obzira sto se Izrael trenutno nalazi u jacoj poziciji.

U istorijskom pogledu, jevreji su bili gotovo uvek u podredjenom polozaju, a to moze vrlo brzo da se desi ponovo jer ovo:

 

Ili ovo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Other_Side:_The_Secret_Relationship_Between_Nazism_and_Zionism

Arapski i muslimanski svet su duboko kontaminirani anti-semitizmom i to na nivou nacista. A to se onda lako preliva i na druge grupe, manjinske muslimanske sekte, hriscane, nevernike. Na ovom forumu se nacisti bas nesto ne tolerisu, ali kad je ovaj aspekat islamofasizma u pitanju u kontekstu Izraela nekako se gleda kroz prste. I wonder why.

I to nije neka nova pojava koja se rodila zbog izraelskog apartjehda, nego datira jos od vajkada: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Islam, a pogledati posebno razne anti-jevrejske pogrome i masakre inspirasane nacistima tokom 30-tih i 40-tih (Alzir, Irak, jerusalimski muftija, itd.).

To su sve bili ljudi koji su pobegli zatim iz islamskih zemalja za Palestinu.

 

Sa Bernijem se totalno slazem da je stopiranje vode i hrane zlocin, a izraelska partija rada s dobrim razlogom nece da ulazi u vladu sa fasistima.

Ne pada mi na pamet da tako nesto opravdavam i prilicno sam siguran da ce Izrael biti pritisnut oko toga.

A isto tako se nadam da ce pre ili kasnije krenuti obracun sa izraelskim fasistima koji su i glavni krivci za sigurnosne propuste koji su doveli do masakra.

Ali, ma sta Izrael radio, mira nece biti biti dok se siri i finansira ovaj ekstremizam gore i dok bude vladao citavim drzavama, mnogo vecim od Izraela.

Ja sam imao prilike da licno razgovaram sa mnogima koji su preziveli razne nacisticke koncentracione logore i koji su izgubili citave familije.

Ono cime sam bio zadivljen da najcesce ti ljudi i dalje nisu bili zadojeni mrznjom prema nekoj naciji niti su opravdavali svoju mrznju prema bilo kome logorem.

Ne, mrznja da ubijas nevine se usadjuje na druge nacine.

 

 

 

[namenski]

Шкрипи кичма dezurnim lovcima na fasizme^tm diljem Planete....

Lako je bilo sa pravoslavnim, Putinovim fasizmom, islo je i sa islamofasizmom i ostalim sitnijim fasizmima, ali muka sada sa demokratskim fasizmom...

Samo kao fusnota, pokusaj doprinosa tvrdnji da se igranje, inflacija izraza fasizam kao kompleksne drustvene pojave, na kraju obije o glavu, buduci da se ta vrsta olakog rabljenja zavrsava po pravilu kao ona prica o akademskom seoskom cobaninu koji je iz dosade dizao uzbunu oko vukova, da bi se stvar na kraju - kada su vukovi stvarno dosli - tuzno zavrsila...

[vememah]

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by vememah

[vememah]

 

 

 

[steins]

8 minutes ago, vememah said:

 

 

 

 

Apsolutno ne verujem da su Izraelci dobili informaciju da se nešto dešava i odmahnuli rukom. Pogotovo kad su Palestinci u pitanju

Izraelske službe su neverovatno pedantne i predane i bilo koju infomraciju da dobiju procesuiraju je sa svih strana dok je ne potvrde ili odbace.

Mislim da ćemo za jedno 100 godina, ako i tad, znati šta se ustvari desilo.

[vememah]

Da vidimo, imali smo Egipćane, pa američkog kongresmena (i to republikanskog), pa sad izraelske bezbednosne izvore.

 

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

Edited October 12, 2023 by vememah

[x500]

42 minutes ago, nautilus said:

Nemam Ama baš nikakav problem u tome da Izrael pobije sve do poslednjeg pripadnika Hamasa. Nemam ni problem da Hamas isto učini IDFu

Vidis, ja imam problem. Vojnik IDFa je covek koji sluzi svojoj drzavi i brani svoj narodu. I ovaj drugi, i on sluzi svojoj, doduse nepostojecoj, drzavi i brani svoj narod. Oni, generalno gledano, rade svoj posao. 

Ako pocine zlocin, onda su oni zlocinci, i trebaju da budu kaznjeni! Najveci krivci u svemu ovome su politicari, ali njih niko nece kazniti i nece nista da im fali.

 

Dve price od 6.10. za koje sam cuo ovih dana.

Spoiler

Upada Hamasovac u kucu u jednom kibuci i vidi zenu sa detetom unutra. Kaze joj da je on verujuci covek i da ce je zastiti Stajao je isred njih kucnih vrata i sprecavao one Mad Max ratnike da udju. To je ispricala zena, jevrejka, koju je spasio.

 

Prica jedne bake od 80+ godina. Nekoliko sati je hranila trojicu Mad Max ratnika koji su joj upali u kucu. Videla sam da su mladi, uplaseni i gladni. Ja sam ih nahranila, i oni su na kraju otisli.

 

Da ne bude zabune, ove price nimalo ne umanjuju krivicu svih onih drugih koji su ubijali, silovali i odnosli ljude. Ili one koji namerno unistavaju civilne objekte i ljude u njima.