Izrael, Palestina i arapske zemlje

[Gojko & Stojko]

4 hours ago, cedo said:

moj je utisak bas suprotan, moguce i da nisam u pravu.

sto se tice fonta i spojlera,uglavnom vodim racuna, bicu pazljiviji

 

h&h, greska, verovatno sam citao o hezbolahu nesto tada. pridavanje paznje tome umesto sustini takodje govori

 

Ja sam čitav život svestan da od drugih ljudi ne mogu da očekujem da obrate pažnju na detalje kao ja, ali čitava ova tema u poslednja dva dana se bavi time kako je strašno što izraelska vojska ne kreće hirurški precizno u odvajanje žita od kukolja. Priložio si ovde gomilu tekstova u poslednja dva dana, ako očekuješ od nas (nas koji posećujemo ovu temu) da ih čitamo (ne znam za druge, ja ih čitam), potrudi se još malo.

 

SaE

[Gojko & Stojko]

 

Iz Ekonomista, intervju sa vođom Hamasa u Dohi, ima i podkast na linku u tekstu

A Hamas leader refuses to admit his group planned to kill civilians

...

Israel’s retaliatory air strikes have killed more than 900 Palestinians. Its army is preparing for a probable ground invasion of Gaza. The coming weeks will bring more bloodshed on both sides—and, perhaps, the end of Hamas rule in Gaza. At such a pivotal moment for his people, though, Mr Abu Marzouk had little to say that Hamas leaders have not said many times before.

 

Still, three things stood out. First is a near-total unwillingness to admit that Hamas killed innocent civilians. The group, he says, “obeys all international and moral laws” and its main target was “military posts”. The stories that emerged from places like Be’eri, a kibbutz in southern Israel where militants went door-to-door and slaughtered more than 100 Israelis in their homes, 10% of its population, show otherwise.

 

As for the 260 partygoers gunned down at a music festival, he says that was a “coincidence”; that they might have looked to their attackers like soldiers “resting”. The claim is so risible it does more to flaunt the crime than cover up the truth.

 

Regardless of their politics, most people around the world were horrified by the scenes of carnage in Israel. Muslims have pointed to a hadith, a saying of the prophet Muhammad, which decrees that fighters should not kill women and children or even cut down trees. Hamas, an Islamist group that touts and imposes piety, seems to lack such compunctions: Mr Abu Marzouk acknowledges that some civilians were killed but argues that it is Israel’s “responsibility” and says that “we were victims before them.”

...

 

SaE

[Peter Fan]

Interesantan ugao iz NYT ( author je bivši Obamin izaslanik za Bliski istok):

 

It appears Hamas wants to draw Israeli soldiers into a quagmire, as Hezbollah did in Southern Lebanon from 1985 to 2000. After years of fighting, Israel suffered a humiliating and chaotic withdrawal, leaving an empowered and threatening Hezbollah on its northern border.

Why might Hamas want to draw the Israel Defense Forces into a bloody ground battle? Hamas is the uncontested power in Gaza, though elections have not been held since 2006. The Palestinian Authority; its main political party, Fatah; the business community; civil society; and family clan leaders cannot effectively challenge Hamas, which has become only stronger after each successive conflict with Israel. Despite an Israeli blockade and round-the-clock surveillance, Hamas has apparently been able to build and buy more rockets, steadily improve their range and accuracy, provide offensive combat training for its fighters and develop an intelligence network sophisticated and far-reaching enough to launch a simultaneous assault on 22 Israeli locations. Hamas surely believes it can defeat the Israelis on its home turf in a war of attrition.

Hamas also stands to expand its political credibility in the West Bank if Israel invades Gaza, particularly if Israeli advances stall. Many Palestinians in the West Bank already regard the Palestinian Authority, which administers parts of the Israeli-occupied West Bank, as corrupt, enfeebled and unable to realize the aspirations of its people. Israel’s July incursion into the West Bank city of Jeninfurther highlighted that the government of the president of the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, can neither protect the people of Jenin nor provide a vision of a more hopeful future. If Israel invades Gaza, Hamas may have the public support to challenge the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and potentially assume leadership as the sole representative of the Palestinian people.

In the broader region, Hamas can also count on its ally Hezbollah. The day after the Hamas attack in southern Israel, Hezbollah, presumably in an attempt to test the readiness of Israeli forces, engaged in fighting with the Israeli military along the northern border near Shebaa Farms, land that is controlled by Israel but claimed by Lebanon. Hezbollah may seek to gain advantage if Israel is fighting Hamas in Gaza and the West Bank.

ADVERTISEMENT

Despite its grotesque atrocities against civilians, Hamas may have already reset the political realignment in the Middle East by disrupting prospective diplomatic talks between Israel and Saudi Arabia. But if Gaza were now to escalate into a protracted ground war, Hamas could also undermine the Abraham Accords, which established agreements between Israel and the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain, and break the trend of increasing Arab-Israeli normalization. The Palestinian Authority was unable to block the Abraham Accords, but Hamas could still unwind them.

Israel, of course, can count on U.S. support as it takes its next steps. The Biden administration has sent a carrier strike group to the eastern Mediterranean Sea, in what it has said is a “deterrence posture” that will provide the Israel Defense Forces with “additional equipment and resources, including munitions.” The national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, reaffirmed U.S. support for Israel immediately after President Biden’s news conference on Tuesday.

Over the next week or so, Israel could destroy much of Hamas’s infrastructure. The Israel Defense Forces will channel the outrage of the nation if it launches a ground invasion of Gaza and will exact an enormous price for Hamas’s massacre in the Kfar Aza kibbutz. And yet operationally, Hamas complicates the Israel Defense Forces’ freedom of action, given that it holds at least 150 hostages. If a ground war drags on, Israel would make battlefield gains but almost certainly fail to destroy Hamas’s governing ideology or the Palestinians’ unrealized aspirations for statehood.

To avoid the Gaza trap, Israel needs Arab allies on the ground and in the region. Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Egypt and Jordan have all regarded Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthi rebels in Yemen and the Muslim Brotherhood as a collective strategic threat. To gain the support of the key regional leaders, Israel will have to offer major security concessions and intelligence in the event of a wider war with Iran and set a meaningful and clear political horizon for a post-Abbas, post-Hamas Palestinian state. Yet Mr. Netanyahu faces a steep credibility gap both domestically and with Israel’s Arab neighbors. Only a true unity government may be able to blunt the Hamas threat with breakthrough diplomacy in the region. That success might cost him his job.

 

 

 

 

 

[x500]

Prva grupa otetih Izraelaca, zene sa decom, je pustna da se vrati u Izrael. 

Ocekuje se da ce danas Izrael pustiti zene sa decom koji su izraelskim zatvotima.

 

Juce je CNN sat vremrna ponavljao izjavu SAD obavestajnih sluzbi kako Iran nije direktno odgovarn za napad Hamasa.

 

[frit]

gledao al nakba na al jaziri

cionizam kroz istoriju i nestajanje palestine

[Zaboravan]

Komšić nazvao izraelsku ambasadorku u BiH „izmanipulisanom budalom“, ona mu oštro odgovorila

 

https://www.danas.rs/svet/region/komsic-nazvao-izraelsku-ambasadorku-u-bih-izmanipulisanom-budalom-ona-mu-ostro-odgovorila/

[vememah]

 

[Čutura]

 

 

 

 

[vememah]

 

[vememah]

Quote

Israel's new war cabinet vows to wipe Hamas off the earth

"We are fighting a cruel enemy, worse than ISIS," Netanyahu said alongside Gantz and Gallant, comparing the group's attack with brutal killings carried out by Islamic State.
Gallant, the defence minister, said: "We will wipe this thing called Hamas, ISIS-Gaza, off the face of the earth. It will cease to exist."
Gantz, a former Israeli defence chief and general, said it was a time to join together and win. "There is a time for peace and a time for war. Now is a time for war," he said.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/netanyahu-gantz-agree-form-emergency-israel-government-statement-2023-10-11/

Edited October 12, 2023 by vememah

[Anduril]

7 hours ago, Budja said:

 

Kakav strah u ocima da ne kaze nesto pogresno. Lik koji je bio Shadow Foreign Minister u roku od minuta kaze da imaju pravo da seku vodu i struju i da moraju da se ponasaju u okviru medjunarodnog prava.

Je li Dragance, ovaj bolji od Korbina kazes?

 

Ali bas svaki topik mora da se usere pricom o tome kako je Zapad licemeran bez obzira da li su direktno ili indirektno umesani.

I to ide jos od Sirije, preko Ukrajine i sada do Palestine da bi se pokazao neki moralno superioran stav (u odnosu na Zapad, mos misliti) ili kompenzovali neki kompleksi.

Istovremeno se, sa moralnog stanovista, pisu ili precutkuju mnogo gore stvari nego sto ovde izjavljuju neki zvanicnici ili se prosto ignorisu mnogo masivniji problemi.

Kad su nam stigli izvestaji o napadu Hamasa i masovnom masakru civila, dobili smo komentare tipa "oh, to je prosto odmazda" ili "sta oni uopste imaju da prave zurke pored Gaze". Sorry, ako vec neko hoce po ko zna koji put da se bavi apsolutistickim moralom na topiku o politici, sto je glupo samo po sebi, onda ovakve izjave nisu nista bolje od onog sto sto se ovde izjavljuju neki politicari.

 

Jeste, Zapad je licemeran. Otkrili ste toplu vodu. Licemeran je i Arapski svet, i to u mnogo vecoj meri. Licemerne su i palestinske vodje. Licemeri su i pola palestinske i pola izraelske populacije koju podrzavaju totalno unistenje onih drugih. Licemeri su i forumasi koji pricaju o bogom danim sferama uticaja nuklearnih sila (Rusije recimo) a sada odjednom imaju problem sa ovim izraelskim fasistima. O licemerju povodom unistenja Sirije, gde su maltene svakodnevno bacane prvo barel bombe a kasnije teske ruske bombe po civilima, i to se onda pravdalo glavosecama (bukvalno istim ovakvim kao sto je ovde Hamas), da ne govorimo. Argument sa licemerjem i posebno moralnim apolutistickim standardima jednostavno nema smisla u politici jer sluze uglavnom manipulaciji kao i u religiji. U politici treba da se porede pre svega rezultati a ne mitske price o moralu i licemerju. Kako ljudi gde zive, koja prava imaju, kakva je nejednakost, itd. Sta ti vredi politicar koji je manji licemer ali je zato otvoren cinican zlocinac koji ubija i svoje i druge. Mos mislisti, Ursula najgora pored svih ovih drugih zbirova.

 

Ono sto radi Izrael je zlocin, i u Gazi i na Zapadnoj Obali - samo, nije mi jasno zasto nema ovakvih odjeka (ne samo na forumu, nego u islamskom svetu, Srbiji, uopste delovima pro-palestinskog levicarskog pokreta na Zapadu) na mnogo masivnije zlocine sirom islamskog sveta koje nisu pocinili Izraelci nego uglavnom muslimani nad muslimanima. Ima svega, od masovnom ubijanja, preko prepunih zatvora (ali bukvalno a ne tipa Gaza), silovanja, masivnog etnickog i religioznog ciscenja, do preuzimanja kuca, ma citavih kvartova, gradova i zemalja. I nista, to se spomene samo ako je Zapad nekako umesan ili se prosto Zapad direktno krivi za te zlocine. Klasicna ideoloska ili navijacka kvazimoralna prica. Ako je Zapad vec najgori, Ursula najgora, sto se moralne gromade lepo ne pokupe da uzivaju u rajevima koji su bolji. Pa ne, razlozi iza te kritike su ocigledno drugi i veoma razliciti pa bi bilo bolje malo razgovarati o njima.

[mackenzie]

A zasto vi moralno superiorniji ne pocistite malo svoje dvoriste prije nego dodjete kod nas u blato da se kaljuzamo zajedno.

[Meazza]

Zato sto "takva je regulativa".

[vememah]

 

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by vememah

[Roger Sanchez]

Quote

Energy Minister Israel Katz says no electricity or water will be supplied to Gaza until those abducted during Hamas’s shock onslaught are returned home.

“Humanitarian aid to Gaza? No electrical switch will be turned on, no water pump will be opened and no fuel truck will enter until the Israeli abductees are returned home,” he posts on X, formerly known as Twitter.

“Humanitarianism for humanitarianism. And no one can preach morality to us,” he writes.

Mexican standoff.. Nekako sam očekivao da će se smisliti ovakav gambit.