Izrael, Palestina i arapske zemlje

[Gandalf]

http://www.meforum.org/92/a-totalitarian-concept-of-history

 

Karsh and I clearly differ in our interpretation of what transpired at the secret meeting between Golda Meir and King `Abdallah of Transjordan on November 17, 1947. Extensive quotations from the reports of all three Jewish participants support my account of this meeting. But Karsh gives a highly selective and tendentious account designed to exonerate the Jewish side of any responsibility for frustrating the U.N. partition plan. It is true (as my book explains) that `Abdallah did most of the talking at this meeting and that no binding decisions were taken, due to the fact that the United Nations was about to vote on partition. That said, the two sides went a long way to coordinate their positions. `Abdallah began by outlining his plan for pre-empting the mufti, Hajj Amin al-Husayni, and explored the Jewish response to his capturing the Arab part of Palestine and attaching it to his kingdom. Meir replied that the Jewish Agency would view such an attempt in a favorable light, especially if `Abdallah did not interfere with the establishment of a Jewish state, avoided a military confrontation, and declared that his sole purpose was to maintain law and order until the United Nations could establish a government in that area.

Six months later, Mrs. Meir reported: "For our part we told him then that we could not promise to help his incursion into the country." This is correct. The understanding was not that the Jews would actively help `Abdallah capture the Arab part of Palestine (in defiance of the United Nations) but that (1) he would take it himself, (2) the Zionists would set up their own state, and (3) after the dust had settled, the two parties would make peace. `Abdallah was even prepared to sign a written agreement setting out the terms of collaboration and asked the Jews to prepare a draft. He also asked the Jews considerably to raise the level of their financial aid to him. Karsh makes no mention of the money paid by the Jewish Agency to `Abdallah; but if the Jews had really accepted the U.N. plan for an independent Palestinian state, surely they would have cut off their financial subsidy to `Abdallah after he had made clear his determination to make himself master of Arab Palestine.

Most surprising is Karsh's claim that my thesis is predicated on a single diplomatic encounter's profoundly affecting the course of history. My account, he says, "reflects a complete lack of understanding about the nature of foreign policymaking in general and of the Zionist decision-making process in particular." This remark betrays a misunderstanding of my collusion thesis, which is based not on a single diplomatic encounter but on `Abdallah's relations with the Jewish Agency and the State of Israel over a period of thirty years, from the creation of Transjordan in 1921 to the king's murder in 1951. A common hostility to Hajj Amin al-Husayni and a common desire to contain Palestinian nationalism sustained their relationship, I argue, almost without interruption for all those years. The November 17, 1947, meeting should be seen in this context, a meeting held behind a thick veil of secrecy, involving much underhand scheming and plotting, directed against a third party, and resulting in an agreement to partition Palestine at the expense of the Palestinians. If this is not collusion, I don't know what is.

[Gandalf]

http://www.timesofisrael.com/soldiers-not-civilians-are-tunnel-infiltration-goals-says-senior-intelligence-source/

 

Hamas operatives aim primarily to abduct soldiers and not to penetrate into civilian communities along the border with Gaza, a senior intelligence source said Monday. The central objective is to kidnap a soldier,” he said, “to replicate the success of Gilad Shalit.”

 

The assertion was borne out hours after the interview, when it became clear that a squad of Hamas gunmen had infiltrated into Israel Monday evening, near Kibbutz Nahal Oz, and directed their attack at an army post south of the kibbutz.

...

The intelligence source, however, said that of the nine cross-border tunnels detected, none actually stretches into the grounds of a civilian community. “They could have gone 500 meters more, into the kibbutz,” he said. “Why didn’t they do that?”

...

The footage of the July 21 attack near Kibbutz Nir Am, in which four soldiers were killed by an anti-tank missile fired at their jeep, shows that the Hamas gunmen were not in motion or en route to a kibbutz but rather had camouflaged themselves in the field, laying an ambush for an army patrol, the source indicated.

[ManicMiner]

Koliko je meni poznato Sadat je i ubijen jer je zakljucio primirje sa Izraelom.

Pa ti sad vidi kako bi se proveli lideri arapskog sveta da ga priznaju.

 

Sadat je ubijen zbog priznavanja Izraela. Mir koji je zakljucio jeste teritorijalno izuzetno bio povoljan po Egipcane jer im je vraceno kompletno Sinajsko poluostrvo gde su, da ne bude zabune, Jevreji vec bili poceli da se naseljavaju.

 

Inace, postoje dokumenta koja govore o tome koliko je veliki bio pritisak Amerike da se Egipat otrgne od sovjetskog uticaja i premesti u interesnu sferu zapada (procitati svedocanstva Henrija Kisindzera), sto se nakon zakljucenja neprijateljstava izmedju Egipta i Izraela i dogodilo - Izrael je morao da vrati ogromno teritorijalno prostranstvo a zauzvrat je Sadat stegao zube, priznao Izrael i 'preselio' Egipat sa istoka na zapad.

 

....

 

Btw, Jom-Kipurski rat su Izraelci preziveli iskljucivo uz pomoc vise nego izdasne pomoci Amerike. Prakticno celokupna izraelska avijacija bila je zbrisana u prvih nekoliko dana rata kao i veci deo oklopno-mehanizovanih jedinica. Da nije bilo danonocnog doturanja tehnike vazdusnim mostom, Izraela danas ne bi bilo. Datum pocetka neprijateljstava se, interesantno, u Egiptu slavi kao Dan pobede (ili bese Dan ponosa).

 

U stvari taj rat i jeste neka vrsta prekretnice na Bliskom Istoku - postalo je jasno da IDF ne cine Spartanci, Betmeni i Supermeni vec ljudi od krvi i mesa koje je moguce potuci do nogu, dok su se u arapskom bloku pojavile ozbiljne pukotine glede priznavanja Izraelu prava na postojanje.

Edited July 29, 2014 by ManicMiner

[iDemo]

izrael je 48e imao ozbiljnu podrsku nekolicine komunistickih zemalja. Cehoslovacka, jugoslavija itd... Amerika postaje bitan faktor malo kasnije.

 

Egipat je sve samo nije vojni k. Na biciklu. Imaju 1000+ abramsa i ozbiljno su modernizovali vojsku za mubarakovog zemana. Samo sto je ta sila prvenstveno namenjena unutrasnjoj upotrebi.

Amerika je odigrala "glasamo u UN za Izarael u Palestini" i to navodno ponajvishe zbog nekakvih nesuglasica izmedju predsednika i obaveshtajnog shefa... po nemu se zove aerodrom... a cehoslovacka i Yu, naravno, "pomoc na terenu", Brno i Zastava i taj rad

[iDemo]

 

.

 

Btw, Jom-Kipurski rat su Izraelci preziveli iskljucivo uz pomoc vise nego izdasne pomoci Amerike. Prakticno celokupna izraelska avijacija bila je zbrisana u prvih nekoliko dana rata kao i veci deo oklopno-mehanizovanih jedinica. Da nije bilo danonocnog doturanja tehnike vazdusnim mostom, Izraela danas ne bi bilo. Datum pocetka neprijateljstava se, interesantno, u Egiptu slavi kao Dan pobede (ili bese Dan ponosa).

 

 

 

 

Tako nekako a i to na drektnoj vezi izmedju vojske US Army i vojske  IDF da bi se tek kasnije sve to overilo u raznim dumama i senatima i taj rad. 

[namenski]

i da dodam da su 73ce izraelci zamalo izgubili rat.ludackom srecom ariel saron se probio kroz prostor izmedju dvije egipatske armije i preko noći prešao suec, presjekao linije snabdjevanja i dobio rat.

 

golda je uzasno kritikovana u izraelu zbog postupaka u tom ratu. mislim, cak, da je to rat sa najvecim gubicima po danu ratovanja koji su oni vodili.

Za one koje mozda interesuje, odlican kriticki prikaz izraelskog komandovanja u ratu 1973, sa prikazima iz prve ruke stanja u vrhovnoj komandi, dobro napisano i sa mnostvom pojedinosti, cak i poprilicno zabavnih:

 

Martin van Creveld, izraelski vojni istoricar, Command in War, 1985.

 

Prevedeno i u SFRJ, Vojnoizdavacki zavod, ima da se nadje, vidjao sam.

[ManicMiner]

U Titovoj arhivi ima nešto na ovu temu.

 

Ovo je, da prostis, tesko lupetanje na nivou partijskih skola. Eto, da je samo Sadat poslusao druga Starog, danas bi se egipatska rivijera granicila sa Sirijom.....

 

U stvarnosti je bilo potpuno drugacije. Egipatska armija je morala i trebala da stane - dok su bili pod raketnim stitom Izraelci im nisu mogli apsolutno nista; cim su krenuli napred poceli sa da dobijaju po picki. Vrli strateg Tito im je, hrabro, savetovao da se zalecu jos dalje, ali izgleda da ga niko nije obavestio (ili nije smeo) na sta Sinaj lici (nisu to bosanske i crnogorske planine, klanci i sume, vec jebena pustinja).

Edited July 30, 2014 by ManicMiner

[Pontijak]

U Titovoj arhivi ima nešto na ovu temu.

 

uuu hvala na ovom kvotu! :) e da, koga interesuje neka cita samo naslovne strane politike iz tih dana 1973.  uzgred napisano, stari marsal je znao znanje, eh da nam je takvih forumasa sada :) + sto je i radio nesto umesto sto je samo znao znanje, to povodom tih tenkova datih egiptu

[hazard]

I kakve sad to ima veze? Mislim, i aerodrom su im slučajno napravili, pa što? Treba im spomenik dignut?

Uručbirano s Lumije Jeftinhare

 

Konotacija je valjda da nema razvoja bez Ješe™, kao što u našim krajevima nema bez Švabe™, a pošto su pola tadašnjih Ješa™ zapravo Švabe™, onda je još jasnije. Die beste

[InvisibleLight]

djokovic prelazi u islam zbog gaze,kazu turske novine 

[ArleKino]

Ovo je, da prostis, tesko lupetanje na nivou partijskih skola. Eto, da je samo Sadat poslusao druga Starog, danas bi se egipatska rivijera granicila sa Sirijom.....

 

U stvarnosti je bilo potpuno drugacije. Egipatska armija je morala i trebala da stane - dok su bili pod raketnim stitom Izraelci im nisu mogli apsolutno nista; cim su krenuli napred poceli sa da dobijaju po picki. Vrli strateg Tito im je, hrabro, savetovao da se zalecu jos dalje, ali izgleda da ga niko nije obavestio (ili nije smeo) na sta Sinaj lici (nisu to bosanske i crnogorske planine, klanci i sume, vec jebena pustinja).

 

Može biti, ja samo "ćitam vijest", što reče Nele u Nadrealistima onomad.

[ManicMiner]

Nisam ni mislio na tebe (tesko lupetanje) vec na najveceg sina nasih naroda i narodnosti.

[Caligula]

[bergasa19]

Gaza and the Loss of Civilization

[Eraserhead]

 

 

Kad bi postojala lista najgorih ljudi na svetu Hannity bi je obesmislio.

 

 

Gaza and the Loss of Civilization

 

Odlican link.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Eraserhead