Ratno vazduhoplovstvo Srbije

[Tribun_Populi]

Hawk i G4 su ista generacija, a Jak-130 i M346 su generacija ispred. IAR-99 je vrlo slican G4 i imam neki osecaj da su im nasi tu nesto pomogali oko razvoja, ili bar prodali neke skice i planove

Ne samo da su ista generacija nego su isti. Zato i rekoh "tata" HAWK, malo je KOS ukr'o planove :) JAK-130 Rusi nemaju kome da prodaju, Aermacchi je za klasu lošiji od Gaše samo ima bolji motor, a IAR-99 pa tek. Edited November 17, 2011 by Tribun_Populi

[hazard]

Jak-130 i M346 su fakticki isti avion, razvoj je krenuo zajedno pa su se rastavili u nekom trenutku. Mozda si ga pobrkao sa prethodnim italijanskim trenaznim avionom MB-339. Taj otprilike ista generacija sa G4 (prvi let 1978.) M346 poleteo je tek 2004., tesko mi je da poverujem da je za "klasu losiji" od G4 koji je napravio prvi let 1978. Zato kazem, M346 je sledeca generacija trenaznih aviona u odnosu na G4, napravljen je da zameni MB339, koji je Super Galebova generacija.Sto se tice ostalih, pogledaj na sta lici koreanski T-50 Golden Eagle. Jedan od retkih trenaznih aviona koji je zapravo i supersonican...razvili od njega lakog lovca (FA-50) da zameni F-5. Ozbiljna masina...Dajte ljudi, price o prodaji modernizovanog G4 po svetu su isto fantazije. Nase RV modernizuje na standard G4MD celih...15 aviona. 15! Za SFRJ je proizveden 91 Super Galeb G4, a planiralo se jos. SRJ je imala 60 u upotrebi. Srbija ima 20-25, a modernizuje ih 15 (ostali ce u staro gvozdje kada im isteknu resursi...ili ce da se remontuju taman toliko da sluze za akrobatski tim). Ako pogledate projekte koje sam naveo, glavni su kupci domaca RV, koja mogu da kupe oko 50-100 komada da bi projekat bio isplativ i bez velikih stranih kupaca. Srbija to ne moze.

Edited November 17, 2011 by hazard

[Tribun_Populi]

Mozda si ga pobrkao sa prethodnim italijanskim trenaznim avionom MB-339.

Upravo, izvini. :)

Dajte ljudi, price o prodaji modernizovanog G4 po svetu su isto fantazije.

OK, domaći avion se pravi da bi primarno odgovorio na TTZ domaće vojske, ali računam da se radi o platformi koja pruža mnogo mogućnosti (nepravedno zakinuta na razvoju glupom odlukom da se pravi još gluplji Orao). Ako naši planiraju da zadrže nešto vazduhoplovne industrije, Gaša je svakako maksimum maksimuma. Mislim da vredi probati.Ali ne nesrećni MD, već temeljna modernizacija (novi motor!!!).

[bigvlada]

Mogao bih sada da idem od aviona do aviona koji su nabrojani (propustili smo Jaguara i Tornada) i da navodim taksativno zašto on ne bi bio konkurencija ali se svodi na to da ili se ne proizvodi, ili ima slab motor, ili ima motor napravljen početkom pedesetih ili je većini kupaca skup za ono što nudi (A-10 koji se ne prodaje napolju je jeftiniji od gotovo svih gorenabrojanih). Mogao bih i da zaređam od zemlje do zemlje i procenjujem koliko je kome star vozni park, kolika im je ekonomija, koliko različitih tipova letelica imaju i kakve su im sopstvene procene o sadašnjim i budućim potrebama. Kao i o mestima gde se može posedovati vojni trenažer ako je subsonični i o mestima gde se MIG-29 može kupiti za $250.000 (plus remont). Ili da navodim da je ova država takva kakva je rizikovala (i još uvek nije jasno da li se rizik isplatio) da uloži par stotina miliona evra u revitalizaciju domaće autoindustrije koja je bila u mnogo gorem stanju neko vazduhoplovna. I ulaganje u pet zgrada biznis inkubatora (od planiranih 20,koliko god to mala bila investicija) je rizik, pogotovo jer znamo da će od svih novih start-up kompanija koje će tamo biti bazirane 90% propasti u toku prve dve godine. I isplatiće se, samo je stvar pravilnog mentalnog sklopa. I u Silicijumskoj dolini propadne 90%, ljudima u proseku tek treća ili četvrta kompanija preživi. To nas odvlači od suštine problema, revitalizacije domaće vazduhoplovne industrije, kako vojne tako i civilne.Ovde moram da umetnem lično predviđanje da će Srbija biti člna EU 2021 kao I NATO-a (koliko god se meni ova druga opcija ne sviđa) sa mnogo višim bdp-om, čvršćom ekonomijom (neće nam dati da uđemo dok ne budemo više ličili na Sloveniju a manje na Grčku) i generalno povoljnijom klimom za pravljenje novog aviona (sa malim n :))Pogledajte ovaj primer, Turci su počeli 1984 i sada, posle 25 godina, na severozapadu Ankare imaš vazduhoplovnu industriju koja učestvuje u nekih pedesetak programa i sprema se da pravi sopstvenog lovca.A vidite kako to sada izgleda kod nas. UtvaIvo Lola RibarMesta za širenje imamo sasvim dovoljnoImamo par kompanija koje za strance rade delove aviona, jednu malu u Kraljevu koja pravi low cost sportske avione, jedan vojni remontni zavod koji može da opslužuje nešto ruskih,američkih i britanskih vojnih motora i JAT Tehniku koja isto to radi sa civilnim motorima za boingove i erbasove avione i sa licencama za remont letelica iz EU i USA.Plus VTI, VOC i delimično obnovljenu Utvu (mislim da još uvek imaju jednu neeksplodiranu bombu) koja pored laste raducka na sitno za EU kompanije, uključujući i delove za Arijanu 5. Imamo ovde forumaše koji su u toj industriji (ako nisam pogrešno shvatio, Shan Jan i Dare spadaju u tu kategoriju) pa bi bilo dobro ako mogu da kažu koliko je vremena potrebno za školovanje jednog kvalifikovanog aviomehaničara(da li je potreban završen mašinski fakultet? Šta još sem toga?), koliko je vremena potrebno za ovladavanje remontom novog motora i obuku mehaničara. Ova država prvo mora da uloži novac u obnovu Čukaričkih hala (kao što je urađeno sa Utvom), remont infrastrukture nam niko neće plaćati. Da li će se nova kompanija zvati Ikarus,Rogožarski ili Zmaj (ovo poslednje mi se čak najviše sviđa :)) je najmanje bitno. Sledeći korak je ljudstvo, kako postojeće u zemlji (Utva je sa 175 skočila na 355 zaposlenih, dok Turci sada imaju 3 i kusur hiljade, od toga oko 1500 inženjera) tako i ono napolju. Ovde se opet postavlja pitanje (a nadam se da će upućeni moći da daju bar neki okviran odgovor) koliko ljudi napolju (ex-yu mašinski inženjeri, dakle ne samo ljudi školovani u Srbiji) bi našlo interes da dođe da radi ovde na pojedinim projektima za manju platu ali veće mogućnosti za napredovanje i sticanje iskustva?Onaj prostor na Čukarici (par hala) je dovoljan kako za Orla i Galeba tako i za druge projekte.Znam da i Česi i Poljaci proizvode avione i helikoptere i učestvuju u dosta projekata kao podizvođači. Mi jedino možemo da im pariramo nižom cenom kako celokupnih aviona tako i pojedinih delova, uz isti kvalitet. Ovo nije toliko nemoguće koliko deluje na prvi pogled, pogledajte cenu radnog sata i produktivnost u US Steel čeličanama u USA,Košicama i Smederevu. Ili fijatovih radnika u Torinu, Poljskoj i Kragujevcu. Česi prave vrata za Embraer? Mi ćemo napraviti identična za 20% manje para.Tek kada obnovimo "mesto gde se nešto može sklapati" možemo da razmišljamo o opremi. To bar nije teško, npr. cela linija za Fiat je kupljena u Kini. Firme koje se bave pravljenjem delova aviona od kompozita imamo, fabrike guma i kablova takođe, čeličanu,fabriku limova,valjaonice bakra i aluminijuma. Cilj treba da bude mlazni školsko-borbeni avion sa cenom od oko 10 miliona dolara i jurišnik sa cenom od oko 15 miliona dolara. Nikada nećemo jednoj zemlji prodati 100 nečega što leti. Ali, imati dvadesetak klijenata koji će kupiti po pet komada i jednih i drugih i za mašine platiti cenu koja je jednaka ceni email novina Daily Candy je već poslovni model koji može da funkcioniše na duže staze.

Financial Times, od prošlog proleća. Serbia celebrates arms industry revivalBy Neil MacDonald in BelgradePublished: March 23 2010 19:12 | Last updated: March 23 2010 19:12The M-84 was meant to be the great hope of the Yugoslav arms industry.Exports of the main battle tank – copied from the Soviet T-72, with more engine power – served with Kuwaiti troops in the US-led liberation of their emirate from Iraq in 1991. Belgrade also supplied arms worth nearly $2bn to Iraqi forces fighting Iran in the 1980s.But the M-84 could not survive the Yugoslav wars. With key components made in Serbia, Bosnia and Montenegro, while final assembly happened in Croatia, tank manufacturing fell apart with the failed federation.Now Serbian arms exports have started thriving again, and there are even hopes of reviving the M-84.The largest ex-Yugoslav republic expects to export nearly $500m worth of guns, military equipment and security know-how this year, as officials tour the Middle East to revive old trade and defence ties.Weapons and military clothing, including body armour, now account for nearly 4 per cent of exports, finance ministry officials say.Mladjan Dinkic, minister of economy, says: “The military industry is . . . doing well in the crisis and even increasing,” .Companies such as Zastava Arms, which makes guns, and Utva Aircraft, which makes training aircraft, are increasing production, and Yugoimport-SDPR, the centralised trading group for six main state-owned defence manufacturers, has started securing deals comparable to those in the late 1980s, before war and sanctions devastated the industry.Dragan Sutanovac, defence minister, says “In 2009, we approached the same level [of sales] as we achieved in 1989 as the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, which was three times bigger [than Serbia].“We think that is a great success, but it is not our final goal.”Serbia’s best sales prospects are seen among the countries of the Non-Aligned Movement, where it was once a leading force.Some of the assortment of states that sought a middle way in the cold war used to buy Serbian arms and could do so again if the price is right.Mr Sutanovac says: “It’s about tradition and good quality, at a good price”.Iraq in particular has proved a lucrative market, taking more than a third of 2009’s exports. On visits to Baghdad then, Mr Sutanovac signed export contracts worth hundreds of millions of dollars, including an order for 20 Serbian-made training aircraft for the Iraqi air force.To revive old ties, Belgrade’s military academy has started training Iraqi officers and medics. Officials have also talked about replacing Iraq’s “lost squadron” of MiG jet fighters – left for repairs in pre-war Yugoslavia, and then mothballed amid the break-up.Stevan Nikcevic, Yugoimport director-general, says: “A lot of Iraqi officers and technicians are familiar with our systems,”.Shared interests go beyond defence. About 60,000 Yugoslavs erected roads, bridges and power lines in the oil state before Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait.Mr Sutanovac says: “My father worked there in the mid-1980s as a construction worker”.The two countries have also had some shared experiences since the cold war. Serbia, like Iraq, spent most of the 1990s under sanctions and plunged into armed conflict with the west.Half the defence ministry in Belgrade remains blackened from Nato missiles in 1999.The defence minister’s last delegation to Baghdad therefore included arms traders, electrical engineers and a Serbian businessman with concerns from brass bullet casings to bakeries.Iraqi officials talked about reconstruction jobs in all sectors worth $70bn after US forces withdraw.Mr Sutanovac says: “We’re convinced part of that cake can go to our companies”.Boldovano je odgovor na to koje zemlje su ciljno tržište, zašto Čeda nikada neće postati premijer, ministar odbrane ili inostranih poslova kao i na raspravu o tome kako ćemo nešto prodati pored pritisaka većih igrača. Baš zato što smo mala zemlja ne možemo da ucenjujemo bilo koga ponudama tipa ne možete da kupite samo naše avione, uz to morate da kupite samohodne haubice i desantne čamce. Pritisak može da igra ulogu kada su ponude gotovo identične, ali kada je jedna dosta nepovoljnija ništa ne može da je spase.

Komšiluk će imati interesa da ulaže u gotove projekte tek kada infrastruktura bude obnovljena, a u zavisnosti od visine ulaganja i da ima određen broj kooperanata i da računa na određen broj letelica. Verujem da bi posle uspešnih projekata sa novim Galebom i Orlom i klima bila mnogo povoljnija za zajednički rad na novom lovcu.

A svakako bolja nego što je sada ili daleko bolja nego što je bila pre desetak godinahttp://www.nacional....nova-galeba-g-4http://www.nacional....-aviona-za-irakNe mogu a da ne primetim da u člancima ima zlobe i besa.Šta sve papir ne trpi.

Ona dva specifična motora sam pominjao jer prvi ima i civilnu varijantu koja se koristi u dosta mašina, relativno je jeftin a iz bliskog iskustva znamo kakva njakanja može da podnese (plus ima veći potisak od gotovo svih motora u gorenavedenim avionima). Kao član EU i NATO mislim da su nam šanse veće i da dobijemo licencu za drugi motor (a motore za petu generaciju aviona ima za sada samo USA, za deset godina će ih verovatno imati i Rusija i Kina).Imajte u vidu da je ovaj projekat mnogo jednostavniji i zahteva manja ulaganja nego neki gde bi se od Ei Niš hala napravio domaći konkurent TSMC-a. O tome možemo na nekoj drugoj temi. :DZa kraj, par sličica nove Laste, info i mali video o kokpitu i letu.

DesignAircraft cockpit provides: • Ergonomic accommodation for 90% of pilots according to current AF & AD standard, in the range of 5 to 95% of pilot statures and comfortable accommodation for 99% of pilots. • Good cockpit visibility and direct visibility of approaching runway (with 2o reserve) from the front seat. Rear seat headroom of minimum 100 mm. • Ergonomically built pilot seat, adjustable in height, accepts back-carried pilot parachute, provided with harness that secures the pilot in all stages of flight but allows normal handling of all cockpit controls, as well as rapid and easy aircraft evacuation on the ground and in the air. • Adjustable pedals. • Pilot rescue by normal cockpit evacuation (without ejection seat), by piercing of cockpit canopy with detonating cutter. • Aircraft flying in basic instrumental flight training from the front cockpit. Provided with instrumental flying simulation system which can be easily mounted and removed.Fuel installation: • Integral wing fuel tanks fitted ahead of front spar • Collecting tank in fuselage • Jet supply pump • Auxiliary electric pump • Fuel unbalance cock • Fire protection cockHydraulic system features: • Designed for landing gear retracting/extending and powering the braking system. • Hydraulic system is featuring with simplicity and lightweight; system is powered by electro-hydraulic generator that does not use power of aircraft engine, equipped with auxiliary hand pump and reliable and simple hydraulic connectors. Landing gear features: • Enables takeoff and landing on concrete and prepared grass runways. Retracted and extended by hydraulic actuators. • Emergency mechanical release. • Main wheel tire dimensions 380 ? 150. • Nose wheel tire dimensions 330 ? 130. • Disc brakes fitted to main wheels. • Differentially controlled braking. • Nose strut view.Electrical equipment: • Electric circuit 28V DC. • Main source: Alternator 2 kW. • Auxiliary source: Ni-Cd battery 17 Ah. • Engine starting by external generator or by battery. • Alternating current system (115/26 V, 400 Hz) by means of static converter of 50 VA. • Lighting: • Position lights • Landing spotlight • Taxi lights • Anti-collision lightArmamentLasta-95 weapons system: • The aircraft can perform training in gunning, rocketing and bombing with application of collimator sight (optionally, upon customer’s request, with optoelectronic sight), engaging the following airborne ordnance: • Pods with machine guns cal. 7.62 mm or 12.7 mm • Honeycomb-type multiple rocket launchers 57 mm • 2 x 100 kg aerial bombs: Optionally, aircraft can be used for homeland security misions, as follows: • Light close air support of counterinsurgency operations and • Area patrol / light attack missionsLasta-95 armament: • The aircraft can perform training in gunning, rocketing and bombing with application of collimator sight (optionally, upon customer’s request, with optoelectronic sight), engaging the following airborne ordnance: • Pods with machine guns cal. 7.62 mm or 12.7 mm • Honeycomb-type multiple rocket launchers 57 mm • 2 x 100 kg aerial bombsEngineEngine Lycoming AEIO-540-L1B5D main features: • Six cylinders • Flat, opposed • Direct fuel injection • Air cooling • Designed for aerobatic flying • Propeller Hartzell twin-bladed • Maximum continuous output (H = 0 at 2700 r.p.m.) 220 kWAccessoriesControls is feturing with: • All control surfaces are mechanically controlled. • Flaps and all three trimmers electrically actuated. • Electric trimmers for rudder and ailerons. • Mechanical, spring-loaded trimmer for elevator.Other mechanical controls: • Engine • Fuel • Cockpit canopies • Landing gear, emergency • Cockpit heating and ventilation • Armament controlsElectronic equipment: The aircraft is outfitted with modern electronic equipment that meets all current international standards and provides the following main functions: • Two-way radio communication air-ground and air-air in VHF range, with frequency spacing of 25 and 8.33 kHz, with minimum output of 10 W, simultaneous reception of all audio signals in both cockpits and enabling permanent communication between two pilots. Specifications TypeTraining aircraft - Light attack aircraftCountry users Iraq, Serbia Company YugoimportAccessoriesTwo-way radio communication, optoelectronic sight, Cockpit heating and ventilationCrew 2 Armament7,62 or 12,7 mm machine gun, 57 mm rockets, 2 x 100 kg aerial bombsWeight1,060 kg empty - 1,630 kg takeoffSpeed345 km/h Engine1× Lycoming AEIO-540-Z1B5D six-cylinder horizontally opposed air cooled, 224 kW (300 hp) DimensionsLenght, 7.97 m; Wing span, 9.71 m; Height, 3.16 mhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8rDEP7RfWEhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE0V0xTn3p0

[Shan Jan]

Eh, ja sam samo ubogi ITevac a i to ne radim dobro :P Sa vojskom imam toliko veze sto me je deka major-inzenjerac popalio sa time. Jos uvek ko najvece blago cuvam cuvenu vojnu enciklopediju (10 ogromnih knjizurina, izdato 1955-66., ako nemas vladu odma da si nabavio :) ).

[bigvlada]

:)Bio sam uveren da se zezaš sa avionikom, tj svime što ima žice i srče struju. :lol:Da li svi na forumu imaju vojnu enciklopediju sem mene? :cry:btw. pre par meseci bila na nekim peruanskim forumima vest da merkaju Lastu (turboprop već imaju). Koliko ta informacija kvače? Oni bili ovde,mi bili tamo, niko nije bio nigde?

[hazard]

enivejz, evo jedan Orao lepo ofarban, sa srpskim oznakama:

[Afterburner]

koliko je vremena potrebno za školovanje jednog kvalifikovanog aviomehaničara(da li je potreban završen mašinski fakultet? Šta još sem toga?), koliko je vremena potrebno za ovladavanje remontom novog motora i obuku mehaničara.

ako je vojni, to se radi u vojnim skolamaostalima treba petar drapsin i posle te doskoluje tj obucava kompanijama kakav fax :)a zaradjuju kao piloti

[Tribun_Populi]

BAE Hawk 200.

Hawk 200The Hawk 200 is a single-seat, lightweight multirole combat fighter with emphasis on air defence, air superiority, anti-shipping, air-denial, long-range interdiction, short-range close air support and ground attack. The aircraft is fitted with the AN/APG-66H, an advanced version of the F-16A APG-66 radar with multimode systems. The aircraft is able to be equipped with the AIM-9 Sidewinder and AGM-65 Maverick. The Malaysian aircraft has the most extensive modification to the aircraft with illumination "slime" lights, wingtip AAMs and inflight refuelling. Its aircraft have been involved in major long-range deployments to areas such as Sabah and the Spratly Islands. Indonesia, Malaysia and Oman have ordered 62 aircraft. Brunei have been interested in acquiring this model (and the Hawk 100), but any prospective order has been continually delayed since the mid-1980s.

Imedžn d Galeb. :)

[deeps]

enivejz, evo jedan Orao lepo ofarban, sa srpskim oznakama:

Zasto vecina nasih aviona izgleda kao da im je neko ispravljao limariju cekicem? Edited November 25, 2011 by deeps

[hazard]

zato sto verovatno jeste

[x500]

Zasto vecina nasih aviona izgleda kao da im je neko ispravljao limariju cekicem?

Zato sto je srpski ljuc 17/13 aka cekic od 2kg najbolji univerzalni alat na svetu ;)Pozdrav,X500

[bigvlada]

Hala gde se sklapa Golden Eagle, ništa veće od onog što imamo. Utva, viša rezolucijaOnaj deo gde je šest segmenata sa plavim krovom jedan pored drugog je verovatno deo gde se sklapa Lasta. Mesta ima za pet-šest projekata u isto vreme a ima i prostora za širenje.

ako je vojni, to se radi u vojnim skolama ostalima treba petar drapsin i posle te doskoluje tj obucava kompanija ma kakav fax a zaradjuju kao piloti

Dakle za civilni program (recimo one poljoprivredne) je dovoljna stručna srednja škola. :)

[Afterburner]

yup, posle oni dalje usavrsavaju

[hazard]

BAE Hawk 200.

Hawk 200The Hawk 200 is a single-seat, lightweight multirole combat fighter with emphasis on air defence, air superiority, anti-shipping, air-denial, long-range interdiction, short-range close air support and ground attack. The aircraft is fitted with the AN/APG-66H, an advanced version of the F-16A APG-66 radar with multimode systems. The aircraft is able to be equipped with the AIM-9 Sidewinder and AGM-65 Maverick. The Malaysian aircraft has the most extensive modification to the aircraft with illumination "slime" lights, wingtip AAMs and inflight refuelling. Its aircraft have been involved in major long-range deployments to areas such as Sabah and the Spratly Islands. Indonesia, Malaysia and Oman have ordered 62 aircraft. Brunei have been interested in acquiring this model (and the Hawk 100), but any prospective order has been continually delayed since the mid-1980s.

Imedžn d Galeb. :)

Hm, ja sam se uvek pitao da li od G4M moze da se napravi neki laki (onako, bas bas laki) lovac.Hawk:G4:Kapiram da ako izbacis jedno sediste, imas mesta za radar i tako te stvari. Edited November 28, 2011 by hazard