kritika savremene umetnosti

[bergasa19]

Mnogo velikih dela je nastalo zbog krčanja creva.

[svashtabezneshto]

Momci, nastavite, uživam čitajući vas.

I ne navijam.

Inače gledanje u ženu™ me iz nekog razloga podsetilo na sjajan, mislim banaćaninov, post o hrani u Durmitoru.

Parafraziraću, jer me mrzi da ga tražim:

Gledam ženu, gledam hranu, previše lepote. Zažmurim...

[Caligula]

ne znaci isto sto i:

 

 

Naprotiv, znaci isto - delo nema autonomiju, uputstvo je njegov sastavni deo. Vec sam pisao gore.

 

 

Ne bih o vajarstvu, za njega sam apsolutni duduk - "sedenje zene" mi je daleko blize i razumljivije (bez upustva) od Henrija Mura.

 

 

Ok.

 

Ja bih zaista voleo da mi kao zrela osoba™ objasnis zasto bi isao u MOMA-u da sedis preko puta zene kada to mozes da uradis bilo gde u svetu sa bilo kim? Svuda ima stolica i zena koje bi cutale. I zasto je i po cemu to umetnicka praksa, to bih voleo da cujem.

 

btw, za Panteon vec moras da sednes u avion i odes na vrlo odredjeno mesto u Rimu. Jer to nije samo kupola.

 

Apsolutno se ne slazem sa ovim sto je napisao bergasa - gledanje zene (pogotvo iz ugla aktivnog ucesnika, koji seda za sto) nije isto sto i gledanje skulpture (osim mozda za psihopate). Marina kroz niz svojih radova se grubo poigrava sa svescu (i jos vise podsvescu) svoje publike.

 

 

Isto to rade i Obama, Putin, radio Gadafi, mnoge zene to rade u braku, muskarci takodje. Isto to rade pomenuti shamani domacicama po istocnoj evropi. To rade i shefovi-sadisti pre nego zaposlenom daju otkaz. To nije umetnost.

 

 

 

 

Pretpostavljam da je ucestvovanje u ovakvom performansu za ucesnike (a oni koji sednu ispred nje to sigurno jesu) dosta stresno iskustvo. 

 

 

Naravno. Pa ne sede u batocinskom domu kulture preko puta cistacice Mire, nego u MOMA-i, preko puta limitless Marine uz twitter pozivnicu Lejdi Gage. Svaki ce praznoglavi hipster da se preznoji.

 

 

 

 

 

Kauboj prica bajke o tome kako ce emocionalno zrela osoba da odsedi desetak minuta ispred Marine, a onda da otrci i to podeli sa drugarima na fejsu. (Verovatno ima i takvih, ali to su oni koji vole da se slikaju ispred gardista na strazi dok se klibere i pokusavaju da ih nasmeju). Ono sto sam ja catao kao realno iskustvo je osecaj krajnje nelagode i zelja da se sto pre ustane i ode. (Aione, i posle ovoga na linku kazes ja ne kapiram :D )

 

 

Nisu bajke, to je realnost. Posle twitter poziva i preporuke Lejdi Gage (ovo je iz Marininog intervijua) :

 

 

 

 

Jedan deo tog prenošenja odigrao se pre dve godine u Muzeju moderne umetnosti u Njujorku (MOMA) kada je priređena velika retrospektiva njenih radova uz novi performans pod nazivom “The Artist is Present”.“Pripreme za taj performans trajale su godinu dana, kao kada se spremaju za let u kosmos. I niko nije mogao da zamisli da će toliko ljudi doći. Njih sedamdeset pet je ispred mene sedelo više od dvanaest puta. I Lejdi Gaga mi je mnogo pomogla kada je preko tvitera javila da je posetila izložbu. Odmah je došlo mnogo ljudi, mnogo mladih ljudi koji su po prvi put bili u muzeju. A meni treba mlada publika. Ako ću da stvaram samo za moju generaciju, onda odmah mogu u penziju”, ispričala je kroz smeh.

 

 

 

.... posecenost je naglo skocila a lejdi gaga je u pero Ipad hipster-novinaru na pitanje o Marini ushiceno rekla ... "she's limitless" 

 

To je ta publika, moj Aione :D

 

 

I da prenesem Zorgetov komentar hihi

 

 

pre 2 nedelje bio sam na velikoj reprezentativnoj retrorspektivnoj izlozbi Marine abramovic kod Mome u NJuciMarina\ je zauzela 2 sprata dole je cinila performans a gore je bila izlozba sa zivim rekretaorima njenih proslih preformanasapreformans je bio Marina swedi u dugoj crvenoj haljini za stolom a iz gledalista dolaze doborovljci i sadaju preko puta nej moraju da cute i da je gledaju i kolko god hoce mogu da sede al ne smeju da pricaju onda mso rapsoravljali kako MArina ide u wc kad sedi ceo dan i jedan forumas koji je bio sa mnom kaze da mora da ima neke kese i creva dole sprovedene ispod crvene hlajine i sve radi automatski nalicu mestabilo je super prvih 3 minuta posle je jebiga dosadno svaka cast sedi ne pomera seonda odosmo gore de su bili stari prefoprmansi reinventovani i rekreirani: gole ribe na zidovima, provlacis se izmedju golog muskarca i zene koji stoje na 20 cm drugom, tu sam zgazio sabana po prstima ali junacki je cutao, zatim seljanke masu pickama na kisi (to ej biosamo futidz), saznasmo iz gomile izlozenih privatnih dokumenata da je imala uzasno bolesno detinjstvo otac je bio partizan a majka je mucila sve po kuci uglavnom jako psihopatska porodica

Edited August 2, 2014 by Caligula

[Turnbull]

Čekaj, Kaligula, pa valjda svega toga ima i u slikarstvu - i karijerizma, i samopromocije  i trend-setting-a, i golih careva, i komercijale i uopšte svega. Kao i u bilo kojo drugoj umetnosti. Sa tobom je na ovu temu nemoguće ozbiljno razgovarati jer ti nikako da se dogovoriš sa sobom šta u stvair tvrdiš, vrtiš se u kurg, menja teze sve vreme, navodiš primere za koje nije jasno šta tačno dokazuju (šta tačno dokazuje to sa Lejdi Gagom, osim da se umetnost i šou biznis prepliću, neretko na štetu umetnosti, ali to nije nikakav specifikum performans arta).

[Caligula]

Čekaj, Kaligula, pa valjda svega toga ima i u slikarstvu - i karijerizma, i samopromocije  i trend-setting-a, i golih careva, i komercijale i uopšte svega. Kao i u bilo kojo drugoj umetnosti. Sa tobom je na ovu temu nemoguće ozbiljno razgovarati jer ti nikako da se dogovoriš sa sobom šta u stvair tvrdiš, vrtiš se u kurg, menja teze sve vreme, navodiš primere za koje nije jasno šta tačno dokazuju (šta tačno dokazuje to sa Lejdi Gagom, osim da se umetnost i šou biznis prepliću, neretko na štetu umetnosti, ali to nije nikakav specifikum performans arta).

 

 

Ima ali nista od toga ne cini delo. To je periferija.

 

Kod ovih stvari o kojima govorim to je sustina, srz, pokretacki motor. "Stara" umetnost je nadzivela svoje kreatore, mecene i njihove sitne porive. Dobar deo savremene umetnosti se iskljucivo od sitnih poriva i sastoji.

 

 

btw. nigde ne "menjam teze", vrlo sam dosledan

Edited August 2, 2014 by Caligula

[Aion]

One gore dve tvrdnje (da ne trazim) jednostavno ne znace isto. Po secanju jedna kaze da savremenoj umetnosti treba upustvo za koriscenje, a druga samu umetnost svodi na upustvo.

 

Ja bih zaista voleo da mi kao zrela osoba™ objasnis zasto bi isao u MOMA-u da sedis preko puta zene kada to mozes da uradis bilo gde u svetu sa bilo kim? Svuda ima stolica i zena koje bi cutale. I zasto je i po cemu to umetnicka praksa, to bih voleo da cujem.

 

 

Ovde mi nije jasna recenica, odnosno nike mi jasno na koga se ovo "bi" ondnosi. Ako se odnosi na mene, onda mogu samo da kazem da, nevezano za zrelost, ja se ne bih izlozio bilo kakvom naporu (ne daj boze putovanju) da bih ucestovao u ovom performansu. Isto vazi i za razgledanje neke Murove skulpture. Ako je to nesto sto diskvalifikuje Marinu i Mura, onda u redu.

 

Naravno. Pa ne sede u batocinskom domu kulture preko puta cistacice Mire, nego u MOMA-i, preko puta limitless Marine uz twitter pozivnicu Lejdi Gage. Svaki ce praznoglavi hipster da se preznoji.

Ovaj pokus diskvalifikacije na osnovu toga ko je podrzava je smesan. Kad bi Lejdi Gaga rekla da joj se svidja Pikaso, i pozvala preko tvitera na neku njegovu izlozbu, sta bi to znacilo? Pri tome ne znam nista o ovoj Lejdi Gagi (osim da je pevacica). Nemam pretstavu o tome da li je pomodna lujka ili voli umetnost. Ono sto znam je da je popularna medju mladjim svetom i sasvim je OK sto joj se Marina zahvalila.

 

 

 

To je ta publika, moj Aione  :D

 

Ko je publika u noci muzeja? Koliko njih dolazi da vidi neku izlozbu (pricam o umetnickom delu manifestacije) zato sto voli umetnost, a koliko zato sto je to moda? Da li to na bilo koji nacin diskvalifikuje dela koja su na ovim izlozbama?

 

Ko je publika koja obilazi umetnicke atrakcije Rima? Pogledaj im fotografije koje kace po instagramu i fejsbuku. U velikoj vecini slucajeva ocigledno je da su tu samo zbog spektakla. Govori li to nesto o Mikelandjelu?

 

Sto se tice ovog Zorgetovog teksta, nemam pojma sta je on tu zapravo napisao, osim da je isao u MOMA na Marininu retrospektivu. Sta si ti zakljucio, kakav je njegov sta prema onome cime se bavi MA (a sto za mene jeste umetnost)?

[Notorious]

Diskusija se gotovo sve vreme vrti oko potrebe/nepotrebnosti likovnosti i kriterijuma za vrednovanje onoga što pretenduje da se nazove umetničkim izrazom. To su, koliko znam (a vrlo je moguće da ne znam dovoljno), pitanja bez jednoznačnog odgovora, otvorena pojavom impresionizma (i drugih umetničkih pravaca u drugoj polovini XIX veka) i posebno zaoštrena pojavom postmodernizma.

Čini mi se da nema mnogo svrhe primenjivati tradicionalne oblike vrednovanja i tumačenja na modernu umetnost, posebno konceptualnu, koja teži pomeranju uloge posmatrača (procenitelja) ka aktivnom učesniku u procesu stvaranja. Upravo ta nepodložnost proceni i dovodi do toga da je veoma teško odrediti šta je umetnost a šta nije.

Hoću reći, svi ste u pravu na svoj način. 

Edited August 2, 2014 by Notorious

[Krampa]

par teksotva...vjerujem da ih vecina poznaje ali mislim da je vazno podjsetiti se nekih stvari. for d sejk of diskasn

 

 

 

 

Barnett Newman
"The Sublime is Now"

European art has struggled with the Greek postulate of beauty that confusedly identified the Absolute with the absolutisms of creations, resulting in a continual "moral struggle between notions of beauty and the desire for sublimity" (17b).

Longinus was bound to his Platonic notion of beauty and value, hence he tied the feeling of exaltation to the perfect statement, that is, to objective rhetoric. Kant continues this confusion with his theory of transcendent perception, which holds the phenomenon to be more than the phenomenon. In Hegel's theory of beauty, the sublime lies at the bottom of a hierarchy of beauties set in formal relationships to reality. Although, Edmund Burke insisted on distinguishing the Absolute with the absolutism of perfect creations in a way that hints of surrealism.

This philosophical struggle manifests as well in the history of the plastic arts. So today we see Greek art's exaltation of the perfect form as an idealization of sensibility, and so also think that in the Gothic or baroque, "the sublime consists of a desire to destroy form, where form can be formless" (171d).

The struggle between beauty and the sublime reaches its climax in the Renaissance and further in the "reaction against the Renaissance that is known as modern art" (172a). Renaissance artists revived Greek ideals of beauty by casting Christ legends "in terms of absolute beauty as against the original Gothic ecstasy over the legend's evocation of the Absolute" (172a). Despite Michelangelo's efforts to attain the sublimity of pure forms and grandeur, "painting continued on its merry quest for a voluptuous art until in modern times the impressionists, disgusted with its inadequacy, began the movement to destroy the established rhetoric of beauty by the impressionist insistence on a surface of ugly strokes" (172c).

So modern art's impulse was to destroy beauty, but because it did not compensate for the loss of the Renaissance's sublime message, modern art was able only to transfer values rather than devise new ways of experiencing life. For example, the cubists, "by their dada gestures of substituting a sheet of newspaper and sandpaper for both the velvet surfaces of the Renaissance and the impressionists, made a similar transfer of values instead of creating a new vision, and succeeded only in elevating the sheet of paper" (172cd). The rhetoric of exaltation was so strong in European art that modern arts' elements of sublimity manifest "in its effort and energy to escape the pattern rather than in the realization of a new experience" (172d). 

The failure of European art to achieve the sublime is due to this blind desire to exist inside the reality of sensation (the objective world, whether distorted or pure) and to build an art within a framework of pure plasticity (the Greek ideal of beauty, whether that plasticity be a romantic active surface or a classic stable one). In other words, modern art, caught without a sublime content, was incapable of creating a new sublime image and, unable to move away from the Renaissance image of figures and objects except by distortion or by denying it completely for an empty world of geometric formalisms — a pure rhetoric of abstract mathematical relationships — became enmeshed in a struggle over the nature of beauty: whether beauty was in nature or could be found without nature. (173c)

American artists deny that art is concerned with beauty. Newman asks, if we now live in a time without a mythos of the sublime and when we refuse to exalt pure relations or live in the abstract, how then can we create sublime art?

We want to hold on to the exalted and our absolute emotions, although we want to let go of the "obsolete props of an outmoded and antiquated legend" (173d). Instead, we create images with a self evident reality but without the "props and crutches" that evoke outmoded sublime and beautiful images; and, we do so without being burdened by the traditions of Western European painting. 

Instead of making cathedrals out of Christ, man, or "life," we are making [them] out of ourselves, out of our own feelings. The image we produce is the self-evident one of revelation, real and concrete, that can be understood by anyone who will look at it without the nostalgic glasses of history. (173d)

From:
Newman, Barnett. Selected Writings. Ed. John P. O'Neil. Berkeley: University of California Press.

[Krampa]

 

Page 1 of 6 | Judd, Specific Objects

Specific Objects

Donald Judd

 

Half or more of the best new work in the last few years has been neither painting nor

sculpture. Usually it has been related, closely or distantly, to one or the other. The work is diverse, and much in it that is not in painting and sculpture is also diverse. But there are some things that occur nearly in common. The new three-dimensional work doesn't constitute a movement, school or style. The common aspects are too general and too little common to define a movement. The differences are greater than the similarities. The similarities are selected from the work; they aren't a movement's first principles or delimiting rules. Three-dimensionality is not as near being simply a container as painting and sculpture have seemed to be, but it tends to that. But now painting and sculpture are less neutral, less containers, more defined,not undeniable and unavoidable. They are particular forms circumscribed after all, producing fairly definite qualities. Much of the motivation in the new work is to get clear of these forms. The use of three dimensions is an obvious alternative. It opens to anything.

Many of the reasons for this use are negative, points against painting and sculpture, and since both are common sources, the negative reasons are those nearest commonage. "The motive to change is always some uneasiness: nothing setting us upon the change

of state, or upon any new action, but some uneasiness." The positive reasons are more particular. Another reason for listing the insufficiencies of painting and sculpture first is  that both are familiar and their elements and qualities more easily located. The objections to painting and sculpture are going to sound more intolerant than they are. There are qualifications. The disinterest in painting and sculpture is a disinterest in doing

it again, not in it as it is being done by those who developed the last advanced versions. New work always involves objections to the old, but these objections are really relevant only to the new. They are part of it. If the earlier work is first-rate it is complete. New inconsistencies and limitations aren't retroactive; they concern only work that is being developed. Obviously, three-dimensional work will not cleanly succeed painting and

sculpture. It's not like a movement; anyway, movements no longer work; also, linear history has unraveled somewhat. The new work exceeds painting in plain power, but power isn't the only consideration, though the difference between it and expression can't be too great either. There are other ways than power and form in which one kind of art can be more or less than another. Finally, a flat and rectangular surface is too handy to

give up. Some things can be done only on a flat surface. Lichtenstein's representation of a representation is a good instance. But this work which is neither painting nor sculpture challenges both. It will have to be taken into account by new artists. It will probably change painting and sculpture.

The main thing wrong with painting is that it is a rectangular plane placed flat against the wall. A rectangle is a shape itself; it is obviously the whole shape; it determines and limits the arrangement of whatever is on or inside of it. In work before 1946 the edges of the rectangle are a boundary, the end of the picture. The composition must react to the edges and the rectangle must be unified, but the shape of the rectangle is not stressed; the parts are more important, and the relationships of color and form occur among them. In the paintings of Pollock, Rothko, Still and Newman, and more recently of Reinhardt and Noland, the rectangle is emphasized. The elements inside the rectangle are broad and simple and correspond closely to the rectangle. The shapes and surface are only Page 2 of 6 | Judd, Specific Objects those which can occur plausibly within and on a rectangular plane. The parts are few and so subordinate to the unity as not to be parts in an ordinary sense. A painting is nearly an

entity, one thing, and not the indefinable sum of a group of entities and references. The one thing overpowers the earlier painting. It also establishes the rectangle as a definite form; it is no longer a fairly neutral limit. A form can be used only in so many ways. The rectangular plane is given a life span. The simplicity required to emphasize the rectangle limits the arrangements possible within it. The sense of singleness also has a duration, but it is only beginning and has a better future outside of painting. Its occurrence in painting now looks like a beginning, in which new forms are often made from earlier schemes and materials. The plane is also emphasized and nearly single. It is clearly a plane one or two inches in front of another plane, the wall, and parallel to it. The relationship of the two planes is specific; it is a form. Everything on or slightly in the plane of the painting must be arranged laterally.

Almost all paintings are spatial in one way or another. Yves Klein's blue paintings are the only ones that are unspatial, and there is little that is nearly unspatial, mainly Stella's work. It's possible that not much can be done with both an upright rectangular plane and  an absence of space. Anything on a surface has space behind it. Two colors on the same surface almost always lie on different depths. An even color, especially in oil paint, covering all or much of a painting is almost always both flat and infinitely spatial. The space is shallow in all of the work in which the rectangular plane is stressed. Rothko's space is shallow and the soft rectangles are parallel to the plane, but the space is almost

traditionally illusionistic. In Reinhardt's paintings, just back from the plane of the canvas, there is a flat plane and this seems in turn indefinitely deep. Pollock's paint is obviously on the canvas, and the space is mainly that made by any marks on a surface, so that it is not very descriptive and illusionistic. Noland's concentric bands are not as specifically paint-on-a-surface as Pollock's paint, but the bands flatten the literal space more. As flat and unillusionistic as Noland's paintings are, the bands do advance and recede. Even a single circle will warp the surface to it, will have a little space behind it. Except for a complete and unvaried field of color or marks, anything spaced in a

rectangle and on a plane suggests something in and on something else, something in its

surround, which suggests an object or figure in its space, in which these are clearer

instances of a similar world - that's the main purpose of painting. The recent paintings

aren't completely single. There are a few dominant areas, Rothko's rectangles or

Noland's circles, and there is the area around them. There is a gap between the main

forms, the most expressive parts, and the rest of the canvas, the plane and the rectangle.

The central forms still occur in a wider and indefinite context, although the singleness of

the paintings abridges the general and solipsistic quality of earlier work. Fields are also

usually not limited, and they give the appearance of sections cut from something

indefinitely larger.

Oil paint and canvas aren't as strong as commercial paints and as the colors and

surfaces of materials, especially if the materials are used in three dimensions. Oil and

canvas are familiar and, like the rectangular plane, have a certain quality and have limits.

The quality is especially identified with art.

The new work obviously resembles sculpture more than it does painting, but it is nearer

to painting. Most sculpture is like the painting which preceded Pollock, Rothko, Still and

Newman. The newest thing about it is its broad scale. Its materials are somewhat more

emphasized than before. The imagery involves a couple of salient resemblances to other

visible things and a number of more oblique references, everything generalized to

compatibility. The parts and the space are allusive, descriptive and somewhat

naturalistic. Higgins' sculpture is an example, and, dissimilary, Di Suvero's. Higgins'

Page 3 of 6 | Judd, Specific Objects

sculpture mainly suggests machines and truncated bodies. Its combination of plaster and

metal is more specific. Di Suvero uses beams as if they were brush strokes, imitating

movement, as Kline did. The material never has its own movement. A beam thrusts, a

piece of iron follows a gesture; together they form a naturalistic and anthropomorphic

image. The space corresponds.

Most sculpture is made part by part, by addition, composed. The main parts remain fairly

discrete. They and the small parts are a collection of variations, slight through great.

There are hierarchies of clarity and strength and of proximity to one or two main ideas.

Wood and metal are the usual materials, either alone or together, and if together it is

without much of a contrast. There is seldom any color. The middling contrast and the

natural monochrome are general and help to unify the parts.

There is little of any of this in the new three-dimensional work. So far the most obvious

difference within this diverse work is between that which is something of an object, a

single thing, and that which is open and extended, more or less environmental. There

isn't as great a difference in their nature as in their appearance, though. Oldenburg and

others have done both. There are precedents for some of the characteristics of the new

work. The parts are usually subordinate and not separate as in Arp's sculpture and often

in Brancusi's. Duchamp's ready-mades and other Dada objects are also seen at once

and not part by part. Cornell's boxes have too many parts to seem at first to be

structured.

Part-by-part structure can't be too simple or too complicated. It has to seem orderly. The

degree of Arp's abstraction, the moderate extent of his reference to the human body,

neither imitative nor very oblique, is unlike the imagery of most of the new threedimensional

work. Duchamp's bottle-drying rack is close to some of it. The work of Johns

and Rauschenberg and assemblage and low-relief generally, Ortman's reliefs for

example, are preliminaries. Johns's few cast objects and a few of Rauschenberg's works,

such as the goat with the tire, are beginnings.

Some European paintings are related to objects, Klein's for instance, and Castellani's,

which have unvaried fields of low-relief elements. Arman and a few others work in three

dimensions. Dick Smith did some large pieces in London with canvas stretched over

cockeyed parallelepiped frames and with the surfaces painted as if the pieces were

paintings. Philip King, also in London, seems to be making objects. Some of the work on

the West Coast seems to be along this line, that of Larry Bell, Kenneth Price, Tony Delap,

Sven Lukin, Bruce Conner, Kienholz of course, and others. Some of the work in New

York having some or most of the characteristics is that by George Brecht, Ronald Bladen,

John Willenbecher, Ralph Ortiz, Anne Truitt, Paul Harris, Barry McDowell, John

Chamberlain, Robert Tanner, Aaron Kuriloff, Robert Morris, Nathan Raisen, Tony Smith,

Richard Navin, Claes Oldenburg, Robert Watts, Yoshimura, John Anderson, Harry

Soviak, Yayoi Kusama, Frank Stella, Salvatore Scarpitta, Neil Williams, George Segal,

Michael Snow, Richard Artschwager, Arakawa, Lucas Samaras, Lee Bontecou, Dan

Flavin and Robert Whitman. H. C. Westermann works in Connecticut. Some of these

artists do both three-dimensional work and paintings. A small amount of the work of

others, Warhol and Rosenquist for instance, is three-dimensional.

The composition and imagery of Chamberlain's work is primarily the same as that of

earlier painting, but these are secondary to an appearance of disorder and are at first

concealed by the material. The crumpled tin tends to stay that way. It is neutral at first,

not artistic, and later seems objective. When the structure and imagery become apparent,

there seems to be too much tin and space, more chance and casualness than order. The

aspects of neutrality, redundancy and form and imagery could not be coextensive without

three dimensions and without the particular material. The color is also both natural and

sensitive and, unlike oil colors, has a wide range. Most color that is integral, other than in

painting, has been used in three-dimensional work. Color is never unimportant, as it

Page 4 of 6 | Judd, Specific Objects

usually is in sculpture.

Stella's shaped paintings involve several important characteristics of three-dimensional

work. The periphery of a piece and the lines inside correspond. The stripes are nowhere

near being discrete parts. The surface is farther from the wall than usual, though it

remains parallel to it. Since the surface is exceptionally unified and involves little or no

space, the parallel plane is unusually distinct. The order is not rationalistic and underlying

but is simply order, like that of continuity, one thing after another. A painting isn't an

image. The shapes, the unity, projection, order and color are specific, aggressive and

powerful.

Painting and sculpture have become set forms. A fair amount of their meaning isn't

credible. The use of three dimensions isn't the use of a given form. There hasn't been

enough time and work to see limits. So far, considered most widely, three dimensions are

mostly a space to move into. The characteristics of three dimensions are those of only a

small amount of work, little compared to painting and sculpture. A few of the more

general aspects may persist, such as the work's being like an object or being specific, but

other characteristics are bound to develop. Since its range is so wide, three-dimensional

work will probably divide into a number of forms. At any rate, it will be larger than painting

and much larger than sculpture, which, compared to painting, is fairly particular, much

nearer to what is usually called a form, having a certain kind of form. Because the nature

of three dimensions isn't set, given beforehand, something credible can be made, almost

anything. Of course something can be done within a given form, such as painting, but

with some narrowness and less strength and variation. Since sculpture isn't so general a

form, it can probably be only what it is now-which means that if it changes a great deal it

will be something else; so it is finished.

Three dimensions are real space. That gets rid of the problem of illusionism and of literal

space, space in and around marks and colors - which is riddance of one of the salient

and most objectionable relics of European art. The several limits of painting are no longer

present. A work can be as powerful as it can be thought to be. Actual space is intrinsically

more powerful and specific than paint on a flat surface. Obviously, anything in three

dimensions can be any shape, regular or irregular, and can have any relation to the wall,

floor, ceiling, room, rooms or exterior or none at all. Any material can be used, as is or

painted.

A work needs only to be interesting. Most works finally have one quality. In earlier art the

complexity was displayed and built the quality. In recent painting the complexity was in

the format and the few main shapes, which had been made according to various interests

and problems. A painting by Newman is finally no simpler than one by Cezanne. In the

three-dimensional work the whole thing is made according to complex purposes, and

these are not scattered but asserted by one form. It isn't necessary for a work to have a

lot of things to look at, to compare, to analyze one by one, to contemplate. The thing as a

whole, its quality as a whole, is what is interesting. The main things are alone and are

more intense, clear and powerful. They are not diluted by an inherited format, variations

of a form, mild contrasts and connecting parts and areas. European art had to represent

a space and its contents as well as have sufficient unity and aesthetic interest. Abstract

painting before 1946 and most subsequent painting kept the representational

subordination of the whole to its parts. Sculpture still does. In the new work the shape,

image, color and surface are single and not partial and scattered. There aren't any

neutral or moderate areas or parts, any connections or transitional areas. The difference

between the new work and earlier painting and present sculpture is like that between one

of Brunelleschi's windows in the Badia di Fiesole and the fa9ade of the Palazzo Rucellai,

which is only an undeveloped rectangle as a whole and is mainly a collection of highly

ordered parts.

Page 5 of 6 | Judd, Specific Objects

The use of three dimensions makes it possible to use all sorts of materials and colors.

Most of the work involves new materials, either recent inventions or things not used

before in art. Little was done until lately with the wide range of industrial products. Almost

nothing has been done with industrial techniques and, because of the cost, probably

won't be for some time. Art could be mass-produced, and possibilities otherwise

unavailable, such as stamping, could be used. Dan Flavin, who uses fluorescent lights,

has appropriated the results of industrial production. Materials vary greatly and are simply

materials—formica, aluminum, cold-rolled steel, plexiglas, red and common brass, and so

forth. They are specific. If they are used directly, they are more specific. Also, they are

usually aggressive. There is an objectivity to the obdurate identity of a material. Also, of

course, the qualities of materials—hard mass, soft mass, thickness of 1/32,1/16,1/8 inch,

pliability, slickness, translucency, dullness—have unobjective uses. The vinyl of

Oldenburg's soft objects looks the same as ever, slick, flaccid and a little disagreeable,

and is objective, but it is pliable and can be sewn and stuffed with air and kapok and

hung or set down, sagging or collapsing. Most of the new materials are not as accessible

as oil on canvas and are hard to relate to one another. They aren't obviously art. The

form of a work and its materials are closely related. In earlier work the structure and the

imagery were executed in some neutral and homogeneous material. Since not many

things are lumps, there are problems in combining the different surfaces and colors and

in relating the parts so as not to weaken the

Three-dimensional work usually doesn't involve ordinary anthropomorphic imagery. If

there is a reference it is single and explicit. In any case the chief interests are obvious.

Each of Bontecou's reliefs is an image. The image, all of the parts and the whole shape

are coextensive. The parts are either part of the hole or part of the mound which forms

the hole. The hole and the mound are only two things, which, after all, are the same

thing. The parts and divisions are either radial or concentric in regard to the hole, leading

in and out and enclosing. The radial and concentric parts meet more or less at right

angles and in detail are structure in the old sense, but collectively are subordinate to the

single form.

Most of the new work has no structure in the usual sense, especially the work of

Oldenburg and Stella. Chamberlain's work does involve composition. The nature of

Bontecou's single image is not so different from that of images which occurred in a small

way in semiabstract painting. The image is primarily a single emotive one, which alone

wouldn't resemble the old imagery so much, but to which internal and external

references, such as violence and war, have been added. The additions are somewhat

pictorial, but the image is essentially new and surprising; an image has never before

been the whole work, been so large, been so explicit and aggressive. The abatised orifice

is like a strange and dangerous object. The quality is intense and narrow and obsessive.

The boat and the furniture that Kusama covered with white protuberances have a related

intensity and obsessiveness and are also strange objects. Kusama is interested in

obsessive repetition, which is a single interest. Yves Klein's blue paintings are also

narrow and intense.

The trees, figures, food or furniture in a painting have a shape or contain shapes that are

emotive. Oldenburg has taken this anthropomorphism to an extreme and made the

emotive form, with him basic and biopsychological, the same as the shape of an object,

and by blatancy subverted the idea of the natural presence of human qualities in all

things. And further, Oldenburg avoids trees and people. All of Oldenburg's grossly

anthropomorphized objects are manmade - which right away is an empirical matter.

Someone or many made these things and incorporated their preferences. As practical as

an ice-cream cone is, a lot of people made a choice, and more agreed, as to its

appearance and existence. This interest shows more in the recent appliances and

fixtures from the home and especially in the bedroom suite, where the choice is flagrant.

Oldenburg exaggerates the accepted or chosen form and turns it into one of his own.

Page 6 of 6 | Judd, Specific Objects

Nothing made is completely objective, purely practical or merely present. Oldenburg gets

along very well without anything that would ordinarily be called structure. The ball and

cone of the large ice-cream cone are enough. The whole thing is a profound form, such

as sometimes occurs in primitive art. Three fat layers with a small one on top are enough.

So is a flaccid, flamingo switch draped from two points. Simple form and one or two

colors are considered less by old standards. If changes in art

are compared backwards, there always seems to be a reduction, since only old attributes

are counted and these are always fewer. But obviously new things are more, such as

Oldenburg's techniques and materials. Oldenburg needs three dimensions in order to

simulate and enlarge a real object and to equate it and an emotive form. If a hamburger

were painted it would retain something of the traditional anthropomorphism. George

Brecht and Robert Morris use real objects and depend on the viewer's knowledge of

these objects.

Source: Thomas Kellein, Donald Judd: Early Work, 1955-1968, New York: D.A.P., 2002.

Originally published in Arts Yearbook 8, 1965.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Krampa

[Krampa]

jbg, nemam pojma sta se desilo sa tekstom. nadam se da je citljivo

[kim_philby]

Diskusija se gotovo sve vreme vrti oko potrebe/nepotrebnosti likovnosti i kriterijuma za vrednovanje onoga što pretenduje da se nazove umetničkim izrazom. To su, koliko znam (a vrlo je moguće da ne znam dovoljno), pitanja bez jednoznačnog odgovora, otvorena pojavom impresionizma (i drugih umetničkih pravaca u drugoj polovini XIX veka) i posebno zaoštrena pojavom postmodernizma.

Čini mi se da nema mnogo svrhe primenjivati tradicionalne oblike vrednovanja i tumačenja na modernu umetnost, posebno konceptualnu, koja teži pomeranju uloge posmatrača (procenitelja) ka aktivnom učesniku u procesu stvaranja. Upravo ta nepodložnost proceni i dovodi do toga da je veoma teško odrediti šta je umetnost a šta nije.

Hoću reći, svi ste u pravu na svoj način. 

 

tacno. samo je kaligula taj koji ne vidi potrebu za kriterijumima.

 

inace...

 

[Caligula]

One gore dve tvrdnje (da ne trazim) jednostavno ne znace isto. Po secanju jedna kaze da savremenoj umetnosti treba upustvo za koriscenje, a druga samu umetnost svodi na upustvo.

 

Cekaj, ako nesto radi samo uz uputstvo, to znaci da  njegova vrednost postoji samo uz uputstvo. Dalje sledi zakljucak da je uputstvo sastavni deo tog dela odnosno da je i uputstvo samo delo.

 

Sa druge strane, postoje remek-dela koja imaju autonomiju i sasvim dobro (i dugo) rade bez uputstva.

 

 

 

 

Ovaj pokus diskvalifikacije na osnovu toga ko je podrzava je smesan. Kad bi Lejdi Gaga rekla da joj se svidja Pikaso, i pozvala preko tvitera na neku njegovu izlozbu, sta bi to znacilo? Pri tome ne znam nista o ovoj Lejdi Gagi (osim da je pevacica). Nemam pretstavu o tome da li je pomodna lujka ili voli umetnost. Ono sto znam je da je popularna medju mladjim svetom i sasvim je OK sto joj se Marina zahvalila.

 

Naprotiv, sve vreme pricamo o nekoj kvalifikovanosti (ja "ne kapiram", "nemam osecaj", "plasim se zaljubljivanja" ) koja je neophodna za razumevanje ovog performansa. Lejdi Gaga nece da pozove na Pikasa (niti je) jer nije u njenoj ideoloskoj sferi interesovanja. Pikaso je dosadan. Njena publika (Lejdi Gagina) trazi nesto sveze, nevidjeno. Zato ona oblaci meso i radi sve one bizarne stvari i u sferi PR-a i u kreativnom smislu (spotovi i estetika, reci pesama). Jeste, sve je to plitko k'o plitak potok ali odlicno je upakovano. Otuda nije iznenadjenje da je svoje fanove pozvala na jos jedan bizaran ivent, pravo kod Marine u ordinaciju. Obe su POP dive, obe rade isti povrsni posao samo sto su im alati drugaciji.

 

 

Ko je publika u noci muzeja? Koliko njih dolazi da vidi neku izlozbu (pricam o umetnickom delu manifestacije) zato sto voli umetnost, a koliko zato sto je to moda? Da li to na bilo koji nacin diskvalifikuje dela koja su na ovim izlozbama?

Ko je publika koja obilazi umetnicke atrakcije Rima? Pogledaj im fotografije koje kace po instagramu i fejsbuku. U velikoj vecini slucajeva ocigledno je da su tu samo zbog spektakla. Govori li to nesto o Mikelandjelu?

 

Uzeo si za primer manifestacije (vasare) gde se narod skuplja iz najrazlicitijih pobuda. Ili 1Rim, gde u vatikanskom muzeju mozes da vidis 6 vasara na jednom mestu uz par bisera koje neces moci da vidis kako valja zbog neopisive guzve.

 

Ovde bre govorimo o "umetniku koji je prisutan" dakle nema lazi nema prevare, zena sedi i to je kraj. Profilisanija publika ne moze da postoji: dolaze oni koji se osecaju posebnim i poneki Zorge kao sarkasticni kibicer.

 

 

 

Sto se tice ovog Zorgetovog teksta, nemam pojma sta je on tu zapravo napisao, osim da je isao u MOMA na Marininu retrospektivu. Sta si ti zakljucio, kakav je njegov sta prema onome cime se bavi MA (a sto za mene jeste umetnost)?

 

Pa cujem da je nagazio onog shabana i eto, sto se mene tice dao je makar atom smisla citavoj postavci. Ako je to interakcija koja je pozeljna u savremenoj umetnosti, ja sam za jedan mali korak blize oceni da cu mozda jednog dana postovati ova proseravanja.

 

 

 

[Ariel]

Јесам, па шта?

 

Au koliko mi je brzo postala suluda ova diskusija... Pacejahi, nisam ovo napisao tebi, brate, no Kaliguli. Pis. Ali kad si već gledao film, bilo bi zanimljivo čuti šta misliš o njemu (ja sam u neku ruku moje mišljenj već napisao) samo da priča na topiku u međuvremenu nije otišla u tri lepe... i vratila se na početak.

[Aion]

...

Edited August 4, 2014 by Aion

[расејан]

Au koliko mi je brzo postala suluda ova diskusija... Pacejahi, nisam ovo napisao tebi, brate, no Kaliguli. Pis. Ali kad si već gledao film, bilo bi zanimljivo čuti šta misliš o njemu (ja sam u neku ruku moje mišljenj već napisao) samo da priča na topiku u međuvremenu nije otišla u tri lepe... i vratila se na početak.

 

Е, огласио сам се концептуално. Да мало раширим дијалог (још увек боље него да је монолог). Отприлике као кад на књижевној вечери двојица око оног сточића заподену расправу а публика блене и упија мудрост, а онда се неко из публике огласи са бајаги наивним питањем и разбије им концепцију.

 

Што је отприлике и оно што сам извукао из филма, да се од свачега може направити бизнис, а може и уметност. Што рече 1 мој другар, "нема везе шта радиш, ако се с тим довољно дуго зајебаваш, истераћеш неки квалитет". Графити су стари колико и цивилизација ("престани да жврљаш, види на шта нам личи пећина!"), а ево тек последњих деценија постадоше уметност.

 

Више не знам ни да ли је филм био баш о Бенксију, или о том другом типу што је прво био дилер препродавац галериста, па онда кренуо сам да ради, или о целом том као покрету, или више није ни битно. Уметност је као коров, може да никне било где и из било чега. И за разлику од корова (који је ипак само права биљка на погрешном месту), никад се не може унапред знати у ком ће облику да се појави.