Premier League 2020-21

[John Coltrane]

E samo nam je falila sudjskePlateMetrija

 

@WTID

 

Evo 1 fin text na temu 2 Šefilda

 

Spoiler

Holiday cheer has been in rather short supply around Sheffield.

Not only have the city’s pubs and clubs been shut since October thanks to COVID-19 but its two senior football clubs are toiling horribly. United have spent the past two months propping up the Premier League and still haven’t won after 17 games, while Wednesday sit just above the relegation zone on goal difference in the second tier.

A first-ever double relegation is looming large, an unthinkable prospect for a proud city that gave football to the world with the formation of Sheffield FC in 1857.

Of course, there have been tough times before. United were relegated to the old Fourth Division in 1981, just five years after competing in the top flight.

Wednesdayites of a certain vintage will also recall with a shudder the dark days of the mid-1970s, when the four-times champions of England came within a whisker of dropping into that basement division for what would at the time have been an unwanted first.

More recently, the two Sheffield clubs had to suffer the ignominy of playing the 2011-12 campaign in League One as fellow Yorkshire sides Doncaster Rovers and Barnsley lorded it over their two big-city neighbours from the division above.

Compared to those lows, the current travails maybe aren’t quite so bad. Nevertheless, the decline inside just 12 months has been truly remarkable.

As difficult as it might be to believe amid the detritus of a dreadful year at Hillsborough but Wednesday were third in the Championship on Christmas Day last year, a point ahead of eventually-promoted Fulham.

Across the city, Auld Lang Syne rang out on New Year’s Eve with United eighth in the Premier League, just two points behind Champions League-bound Manchester United. The club had not welcomed in a new year from such a lofty position since 1972.

 

Unlike Wednesday, whose 2020 began with just one win in the opening nine league games, Chris Wilder’s United started the year well. There were victories over West Ham United, Crystal Palace, Bournemouth and Norwich City, plus a stirring fightback to rescue a late point away to Arsenal. Progress was made in the FA Cup, too, to reach the quarter-finals before losing to eventual winners Arsenal by the odd goal in the last minute.

But then came lockdown in March and a collapse so spectacular it is nigh on impossible to see a way they avoid relegation this season even with 21 Premier League games still to play.

Wednesday, thanks to halving on appeal the 12-point deduction meted out by the EFL for breaking rules on spending, are closer to safety. The club sit 21st, level on points with third-bottom Derby County, who have a game in hand. Rotherham United, three points adrift of their managerless neighbours, have three games in hand.

But a calendar year that brought just nine wins in Wednesday’s 43 league outings means belief and confidence will be fragile.

Only time will tell if either club can pull off their own great escape.

For now, though, our Wednesday and United reporters Nancy Frostick and Richard Sutcliffe stopped drowning their sorrows long enough this festive season to examine why 2020 went so horribly wrong for Sheffield’s clubs before assessing whether the New Year can bring any form of salvation.

---

This may be a daft question but what’s the mood like around Sheffield’s two senior clubs?

Frostick: The overwhelming feeling among Wednesday fans seems to be apathy with a touch of despair. Supporters are justifiably disengaged after a year of poor performances. That, plus the fact they can’t go to Hillsborough even if they want to, has had a real impact on their emotional investment in the team. It’s probably the most dangerous mood for the club, because they’re going to need the fans to want to come back to games once Sheffield is out of Tier 3 restrictions, both to spend money and get behind the team.

Players and staff are certainly not feeling apathy. They are keen to turn things around as soon as possible. But, nearly a year on from the start of Wednesday’s slump, there’s still a lot of head-scratching as to why their efforts are not being rewarded with results and now the sacking of Pulis has plunged the club to a new low.

Sutcliffe: The mood is one of resignation among many supporters, mixed in with a degree of pragmatism as to how stability will be key if the worst does happen come May.

Everyone is well aware of the statistic trotted out at this time of year about how the bottom club in the Premier League at Christmas usually goes on to be relegated. Just three have stayed up since the Premier League era began in 1992 — and none of those were anywhere near as badly off points-wise as United are now. This, though, should not be taken as a sign the white flag is being waved on the pitch. The battling displays against Manchester United, Brighton & Hove Albion and Burnley in the final three games of 2020 proved that. And if you speak to Wilder or his players, even away from the microphones, there is still a belief the season can be turned around.

Making a case for the great escape, however, is difficult, even at a club who avoided the drop from the old First Division comfortably in 1990-91 despite not winning until their 17th league game of the season. United simply don’t score enough goals (just eight so far), while they remain the only top-flight club yet to keep a clean sheet this season.

Sounds grim. Are there any reasons to be cheerful?

Sutcliffe: United are a grounded club, whose supporters — a few panickers on social media aside — can see the bigger picture. So, as miserable as results have been this season, there remains an appreciation as to just how far the club have come in a short space of time. Four and a half years ago, League One had seemingly become United’s permanent home after a fifth straight season at that level. Playing top-flight football again was a pipe dream. Those desperate final days of Nigel Adkins’ reign in the spring of 2016 have not been forgotten amid the current travails. Plus, if next season does bring a return to the second tier, there is an optimism United will follow the examples of Watford, Bournemouth and Norwich City this season by making a strong challenge to instantly return.

 

Performances this season haven’t been as bad as results suggest, either. So, there is a sense that the new year may herald a long-overdue return to winning ways. Maybe not enough to stay up — though if some form of momentum can be built, who knows? — but if United can start cutting out costly individual mistakes while also starting to take chances at the other end, then the second half of the campaign might just be that little bit less painful.

Frostick: You mean aside from the obvious enjoyment of seeing the other side of the city in a similar amount of pain? Well, cheer has certainly been in short supply for Wednesday fans. If there was any sense of cautious optimism that the January transfer window would bring new arrivals who could spark a run for survival, it’s been squashed somewhat by the need to bring in a manager capable of keeping them up first. Fans with a dark sense of humour can also probably feel cheerful they have not had to be at stadiums around the country to watch the majority of Wednesday’s football this year.

One small reason to be optimistic for the future is the prospect of both a return of fans and the potential revival of the Steel City derby, should Wednesday stay up. Those games are always good fun for the neutral, if a bit nerve-racking for both sets of fans.

2020 League Table: PL and EFL combined

82	Crystal Palace	PL	34	35	1.03
83	Birmingham	CH	43	44	1.02
84	Bolton	L2	34	33	0.97
85	Wycombe	CH	33	31	0.94
86	Bristol Rovers	L1	30	28	0.93
87	Brighton	PL	34	31	0.91
88	Burton	L1	34	31	0.91
89	Sheff Wed	CH	43	39	0.91
90	Southend	L2	32	27	0.84
91	Sheff Utd	PL	34	27	0.79
92	Stevenage	L2	32	22	0.69

Can solace be found in how the other lot in the city are doing? Or maybe even others further afield in South Yorkshire?

Frostick: Shared misery with United aside, it’s not been a great time for Wednesday to draw encouragement from the suffering of their neighbours. Humbled 3-0 by Rotherham and then 2-1 losers at home to Barnsley already this season, for most of the season Wednesday have slid below both of their other South Yorkshire rivals in the table. Barnsley have built a young squad with plenty of potential and seem to have mastered good managerial recruitment with Valerien Ismael hitting the ground running since he took over from Gerhard Struber in late October.

Rotherham look most likely to go with Wednesday in a joint drop into League One but also seem better prepared to stay in the second division than last time they were here under Paul Warne, in 2018-19. It might be best for Wednesday fans to bury their heads in the sand and ignore the rest of the region for the time being.

Sutcliffe: The adage about there always being someone worse off than you in life has rarely held more value than in recent months. No matter how badly things have been going in the Premier League, Wednesday’s troubles in the division below are helping to keep spirits up.

There is a famous front-page headline of the Green ‘Un local Saturday night sports newspaper that reads “Blades glory, Owls down” from when the two Sheffield clubs swapped divisions on a dramatic final afternoon of the 1989-90 season.

Umpteen United households still boast a copy, even three decades on. A glorious end to this season at Bramall Lane seems unlikely but another tumble down the divisions for their city rivals would certainly take the edge off that for Unitedites.

What can be done? Is your club’s structure and day-to-day running a factor in their current struggles?

Sutcliffe: Not so long ago, boardroom shenanigans were dominating the agenda at Bramall Lane. Wilder came close to walking out amid a power struggle between one-time partners, Prince Abdullah Bin Mosaad Bin Abdulaziz Al Saud and Kevin McCabe. Since finally being settled in the Saudi businessman’s favour at the High Court in September last year, a welcome air of calm has been restored. Wilder has an excellent relationship with chief executive Stephen Bettis, whose return to the club in summer 2018 was instigated by the manager after Wilder had settled his own differences with the then co-owners. Prince Abdullah has also recently made clear his support for Wilder, stressing that even if the club went down he would be the best man to lead their fight to return.

 

Frostick: It’s fair to say that a large and fairly vocal part of the Wednesday fan base is unhappy with the way owner Dejphon Chansiri is running the club. Ticket prices, communication with supporters and a lack of boardroom structure between chairman and manager have all been areas of concern for some time. Then there is the separation of Hillsborough from the club (Chansiri bought the stadium from the club to help meet the EFL’s spending rules) and the late payment of player wages on multiple occasions in the past 12 months, which has also been worrying. Plus, of course, there was the 12-point deduction, subsequently halved to six, which has affected the side this season. All of this paints a chaotic picture of life at Hillsborough and there is the fear that Wednesday are a ship sinking very slowly and there’s not even a captain at the helm at the moment to lead the team to safety.

Sounds like serious change is needed at Wednesday. What moves could benefit the two clubs going forward?

Frostick: Put simply, the chairman needs support. It’s nearly two years since Wednesday last had a CEO. Even one small change in the club hierarchy would instil confidence that Wednesday have drawn a line under the past and is moving forward with a plan. Some stability on the pitch would also be welcome. Wednesday have rattled through managers in the past few years and could do with some continuity, providing results are positive of course.

More urgently, performances and results need to change. It is stating the obvious but if Wednesday carry on with their current form, they won’t even put up a fight on their way to relegation. The fans need a reason to fall in love with the club again.

Sutcliffe: A bit more financial muscle wouldn’t go amiss. The club’s transfer spending since returning to the Premier League has been unprecedented by their own standards. It has also been above budget in each of the past two windows, underlining again the support the board has shown the manager. But wages remain modest compared to their peers.

Efforts are being made to bridge the gap. United World, a pyramid of clubs designed to bring through talent from around the globe in the long term, has been set up, while the Middle Eastern market has been targeted in terms of increased sponsorship and marketing. Relegation, of course, will hit those plans due to the loss of the global platform that accompanies a place in the Premier League.

 

Let’s try to end on a positive note by looking longer term. Surely Sheffield football can bounce back from what has been a truly wretched end to 2020?

Sutcliffe: The target for Wilder and his players is to emulate West Bromwich Albion (2004-05), Sunderland (2013-14) and Leicester City (2014-15) by overcoming being bottom at Christmas to stay in the Premier League. Achieve that, and United’s long-term future will be decidedly rosier.

But if, as feels more or less nailed on right now, relegation is to be the club’s fate this season, the supporters can still look forward with a sense of hope. There will be departures, of course. There always are after a team drops down to the Championship. Sander Berge would undoubtedly be in demand, while others, such as Jack O’Connell and John Egan, may well attract potential suitors.

More than likely, though, the core of the squad is likely to remain, along with the manager, and that would surely leave United well placed to follow the lead of Sean Dyche’s Burnley in 2015-16 by bouncing straight back up following relegation from the top flight. Burnley have been there ever since.

Frostick: It’s an interesting question from a Wednesday perspective. Going down to the third division could be both catastrophic and a chance for a complete, positive reset at the club. The financial impact would be significant, plus relegation from the Championship is the polar opposite to what Chansiri set out as his ambition when he bought the club in January 2015 — namely, promotion back to the Premier League within a few years.

Falling into the EFL’s bottom two divisions would mean working under a salary cap, too, which would be a new constraint for Wednesday. There has already been a transition from recruiting players with high wages and big price tags to more affordable options as they have tried to reduce losses and next summer should be another chance for them to do that with 12 current players set to be out of contract.

Should they manage to avoid the drop, this season should still be seen as a big warning sign that Wednesday’s existing approach simply hasn’t paid off and they need to head back to the drawing board.

 

[WTID]

5 hours ago, John Coltrane said:

E samo nam je falila sudjskePlateMetrija

 

@WTID

 

Evo 1 fin text na temu 2 Šefilda

 

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Holiday cheer has been in rather short supply around Sheffield.

Not only have the city’s pubs and clubs been shut since October thanks to COVID-19 but its two senior football clubs are toiling horribly. United have spent the past two months propping up the Premier League and still haven’t won after 17 games, while Wednesday sit just above the relegation zone on goal difference in the second tier.

A first-ever double relegation is looming large, an unthinkable prospect for a proud city that gave football to the world with the formation of Sheffield FC in 1857.

Of course, there have been tough times before. United were relegated to the old Fourth Division in 1981, just five years after competing in the top flight.

Wednesdayites of a certain vintage will also recall with a shudder the dark days of the mid-1970s, when the four-times champions of England came within a whisker of dropping into that basement division for what would at the time have been an unwanted first.

More recently, the two Sheffield clubs had to suffer the ignominy of playing the 2011-12 campaign in League One as fellow Yorkshire sides Doncaster Rovers and Barnsley lorded it over their two big-city neighbours from the division above.

Compared to those lows, the current travails maybe aren’t quite so bad. Nevertheless, the decline inside just 12 months has been truly remarkable.

As difficult as it might be to believe amid the detritus of a dreadful year at Hillsborough but Wednesday were third in the Championship on Christmas Day last year, a point ahead of eventually-promoted Fulham.

Across the city, Auld Lang Syne rang out on New Year’s Eve with United eighth in the Premier League, just two points behind Champions League-bound Manchester United. The club had not welcomed in a new year from such a lofty position since 1972.

 

Unlike Wednesday, whose 2020 began with just one win in the opening nine league games, Chris Wilder’s United started the year well. There were victories over West Ham United, Crystal Palace, Bournemouth and Norwich City, plus a stirring fightback to rescue a late point away to Arsenal. Progress was made in the FA Cup, too, to reach the quarter-finals before losing to eventual winners Arsenal by the odd goal in the last minute.

But then came lockdown in March and a collapse so spectacular it is nigh on impossible to see a way they avoid relegation this season even with 21 Premier League games still to play.

Wednesday, thanks to halving on appeal the 12-point deduction meted out by the EFL for breaking rules on spending, are closer to safety. The club sit 21st, level on points with third-bottom Derby County, who have a game in hand. Rotherham United, three points adrift of their managerless neighbours, have three games in hand.

But a calendar year that brought just nine wins in Wednesday’s 43 league outings means belief and confidence will be fragile.

Only time will tell if either club can pull off their own great escape.

For now, though, our Wednesday and United reporters Nancy Frostick and Richard Sutcliffe stopped drowning their sorrows long enough this festive season to examine why 2020 went so horribly wrong for Sheffield’s clubs before assessing whether the New Year can bring any form of salvation.

---

This may be a daft question but what’s the mood like around Sheffield’s two senior clubs?

Frostick: The overwhelming feeling among Wednesday fans seems to be apathy with a touch of despair. Supporters are justifiably disengaged after a year of poor performances. That, plus the fact they can’t go to Hillsborough even if they want to, has had a real impact on their emotional investment in the team. It’s probably the most dangerous mood for the club, because they’re going to need the fans to want to come back to games once Sheffield is out of Tier 3 restrictions, both to spend money and get behind the team.

Players and staff are certainly not feeling apathy. They are keen to turn things around as soon as possible. But, nearly a year on from the start of Wednesday’s slump, there’s still a lot of head-scratching as to why their efforts are not being rewarded with results and now the sacking of Pulis has plunged the club to a new low.

Sutcliffe: The mood is one of resignation among many supporters, mixed in with a degree of pragmatism as to how stability will be key if the worst does happen come May.

Everyone is well aware of the statistic trotted out at this time of year about how the bottom club in the Premier League at Christmas usually goes on to be relegated. Just three have stayed up since the Premier League era began in 1992 — and none of those were anywhere near as badly off points-wise as United are now. This, though, should not be taken as a sign the white flag is being waved on the pitch. The battling displays against Manchester United, Brighton & Hove Albion and Burnley in the final three games of 2020 proved that. And if you speak to Wilder or his players, even away from the microphones, there is still a belief the season can be turned around.

Making a case for the great escape, however, is difficult, even at a club who avoided the drop from the old First Division comfortably in 1990-91 despite not winning until their 17th league game of the season. United simply don’t score enough goals (just eight so far), while they remain the only top-flight club yet to keep a clean sheet this season.

Sounds grim. Are there any reasons to be cheerful?

Sutcliffe: United are a grounded club, whose supporters — a few panickers on social media aside — can see the bigger picture. So, as miserable as results have been this season, there remains an appreciation as to just how far the club have come in a short space of time. Four and a half years ago, League One had seemingly become United’s permanent home after a fifth straight season at that level. Playing top-flight football again was a pipe dream. Those desperate final days of Nigel Adkins’ reign in the spring of 2016 have not been forgotten amid the current travails. Plus, if next season does bring a return to the second tier, there is an optimism United will follow the examples of Watford, Bournemouth and Norwich City this season by making a strong challenge to instantly return.

 

Performances this season haven’t been as bad as results suggest, either. So, there is a sense that the new year may herald a long-overdue return to winning ways. Maybe not enough to stay up — though if some form of momentum can be built, who knows? — but if United can start cutting out costly individual mistakes while also starting to take chances at the other end, then the second half of the campaign might just be that little bit less painful.

Frostick: You mean aside from the obvious enjoyment of seeing the other side of the city in a similar amount of pain? Well, cheer has certainly been in short supply for Wednesday fans. If there was any sense of cautious optimism that the January transfer window would bring new arrivals who could spark a run for survival, it’s been squashed somewhat by the need to bring in a manager capable of keeping them up first. Fans with a dark sense of humour can also probably feel cheerful they have not had to be at stadiums around the country to watch the majority of Wednesday’s football this year.

One small reason to be optimistic for the future is the prospect of both a return of fans and the potential revival of the Steel City derby, should Wednesday stay up. Those games are always good fun for the neutral, if a bit nerve-racking for both sets of fans.

2020 League Table: PL and EFL combined

 

82	Crystal Palace	PL	34	35	1.03
83	Birmingham	CH	43	44	1.02
84	Bolton	L2	34	33	0.97
85	Wycombe	CH	33	31	0.94
86	Bristol Rovers	L1	30	28	0.93
87	Brighton	PL	34	31	0.91
88	Burton	L1	34	31	0.91
89	Sheff Wed	CH	43	39	0.91
90	Southend	L2	32	27	0.84
91	Sheff Utd	PL	34	27	0.79
92	Stevenage	L2	32	22	0.69

Can solace be found in how the other lot in the city are doing? Or maybe even others further afield in South Yorkshire?

Frostick: Shared misery with United aside, it’s not been a great time for Wednesday to draw encouragement from the suffering of their neighbours. Humbled 3-0 by Rotherham and then 2-1 losers at home to Barnsley already this season, for most of the season Wednesday have slid below both of their other South Yorkshire rivals in the table. Barnsley have built a young squad with plenty of potential and seem to have mastered good managerial recruitment with Valerien Ismael hitting the ground running since he took over from Gerhard Struber in late October.

Rotherham look most likely to go with Wednesday in a joint drop into League One but also seem better prepared to stay in the second division than last time they were here under Paul Warne, in 2018-19. It might be best for Wednesday fans to bury their heads in the sand and ignore the rest of the region for the time being.

Sutcliffe: The adage about there always being someone worse off than you in life has rarely held more value than in recent months. No matter how badly things have been going in the Premier League, Wednesday’s troubles in the division below are helping to keep spirits up.

There is a famous front-page headline of the Green ‘Un local Saturday night sports newspaper that reads “Blades glory, Owls down” from when the two Sheffield clubs swapped divisions on a dramatic final afternoon of the 1989-90 season.

Umpteen United households still boast a copy, even three decades on. A glorious end to this season at Bramall Lane seems unlikely but another tumble down the divisions for their city rivals would certainly take the edge off that for Unitedites.

What can be done? Is your club’s structure and day-to-day running a factor in their current struggles?

Sutcliffe: Not so long ago, boardroom shenanigans were dominating the agenda at Bramall Lane. Wilder came close to walking out amid a power struggle between one-time partners, Prince Abdullah Bin Mosaad Bin Abdulaziz Al Saud and Kevin McCabe. Since finally being settled in the Saudi businessman’s favour at the High Court in September last year, a welcome air of calm has been restored. Wilder has an excellent relationship with chief executive Stephen Bettis, whose return to the club in summer 2018 was instigated by the manager after Wilder had settled his own differences with the then co-owners. Prince Abdullah has also recently made clear his support for Wilder, stressing that even if the club went down he would be the best man to lead their fight to return.

 

Frostick: It’s fair to say that a large and fairly vocal part of the Wednesday fan base is unhappy with the way owner Dejphon Chansiri is running the club. Ticket prices, communication with supporters and a lack of boardroom structure between chairman and manager have all been areas of concern for some time. Then there is the separation of Hillsborough from the club (Chansiri bought the stadium from the club to help meet the EFL’s spending rules) and the late payment of player wages on multiple occasions in the past 12 months, which has also been worrying. Plus, of course, there was the 12-point deduction, subsequently halved to six, which has affected the side this season. All of this paints a chaotic picture of life at Hillsborough and there is the fear that Wednesday are a ship sinking very slowly and there’s not even a captain at the helm at the moment to lead the team to safety.

Sounds like serious change is needed at Wednesday. What moves could benefit the two clubs going forward?

Frostick: Put simply, the chairman needs support. It’s nearly two years since Wednesday last had a CEO. Even one small change in the club hierarchy would instil confidence that Wednesday have drawn a line under the past and is moving forward with a plan. Some stability on the pitch would also be welcome. Wednesday have rattled through managers in the past few years and could do with some continuity, providing results are positive of course.

More urgently, performances and results need to change. It is stating the obvious but if Wednesday carry on with their current form, they won’t even put up a fight on their way to relegation. The fans need a reason to fall in love with the club again.

Sutcliffe: A bit more financial muscle wouldn’t go amiss. The club’s transfer spending since returning to the Premier League has been unprecedented by their own standards. It has also been above budget in each of the past two windows, underlining again the support the board has shown the manager. But wages remain modest compared to their peers.

Efforts are being made to bridge the gap. United World, a pyramid of clubs designed to bring through talent from around the globe in the long term, has been set up, while the Middle Eastern market has been targeted in terms of increased sponsorship and marketing. Relegation, of course, will hit those plans due to the loss of the global platform that accompanies a place in the Premier League.

 

Let’s try to end on a positive note by looking longer term. Surely Sheffield football can bounce back from what has been a truly wretched end to 2020?

Sutcliffe: The target for Wilder and his players is to emulate West Bromwich Albion (2004-05), Sunderland (2013-14) and Leicester City (2014-15) by overcoming being bottom at Christmas to stay in the Premier League. Achieve that, and United’s long-term future will be decidedly rosier.

But if, as feels more or less nailed on right now, relegation is to be the club’s fate this season, the supporters can still look forward with a sense of hope. There will be departures, of course. There always are after a team drops down to the Championship. Sander Berge would undoubtedly be in demand, while others, such as Jack O’Connell and John Egan, may well attract potential suitors.

More than likely, though, the core of the squad is likely to remain, along with the manager, and that would surely leave United well placed to follow the lead of Sean Dyche’s Burnley in 2015-16 by bouncing straight back up following relegation from the top flight. Burnley have been there ever since.

Frostick: It’s an interesting question from a Wednesday perspective. Going down to the third division could be both catastrophic and a chance for a complete, positive reset at the club. The financial impact would be significant, plus relegation from the Championship is the polar opposite to what Chansiri set out as his ambition when he bought the club in January 2015 — namely, promotion back to the Premier League within a few years.

Falling into the EFL’s bottom two divisions would mean working under a salary cap, too, which would be a new constraint for Wednesday. There has already been a transition from recruiting players with high wages and big price tags to more affordable options as they have tried to reduce losses and next summer should be another chance for them to do that with 12 current players set to be out of contract.

Should they manage to avoid the drop, this season should still be seen as a big warning sign that Wednesday’s existing approach simply hasn’t paid off and they need to head back to the drawing board.

 

 

Video sam ovo na Athletic-u, hvala puno u svakom slucaju.

[mrdja]

11 hours ago, Mindaugas Žukauskas said:

Paaa, slab sam i ja na temu zakulisnih radnji, ali vrlo dobro se sećam diplomatskog skandala nakon ubijanja ruskog špijuna u Engleskoj, nekoliko dana pre delegiranja sudija za SP.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43596812

 

Imam i ja pravo da verujem da totalno isključivanje zemlje koja je dobila najveću čast na prethodnom velikom takmičenju nije baš realan i normalan prelaz. Isto kao što mrdja ima pravo da veruje da je profesor metodologije treninga na univerzitetu u Rimu i svetski aklejmovan stručnjak, ustvari laik u svom poslu, i da pak treba verovati njegovom oštrom oku.

 

I naravno da ne glorifikujem sve u Engleskoj. Citirao sam samo jedan deo sa kokim se nisam složio, a tvoj post je bio ogroman. Reagujem često na taj narativ 'engleske sudije su najlošije u Evropi' jer vidim šta rade i Brih i Lahoz i Irati sinoć u italijanskom derbiju, i situacija uopšte nije za pohvalu. I da, bolje sudija od 50 godina koji ima tonu iskustva iza sebe, pa makar i malo sporiji, nego gušter koji sprinta i sve vidi, ali ne može to što vidi da pretoči u dobru odluku. Nadam se da i ti poštuješ moj stav oko ovoga.

Odluka o dodeljivanju finala sudijama se vrsi na osnovu individualnog ucinka, tako da je to ipak cast za pojedinca a ne odavanje priznanja Srbiji, Turskoj, Sloveniji, Engleskoj i inima. Kako taj sudija iz 2016 vise nije pod engleskom sudijskom organizacijom, uopste nije cudno da zemlja nije imala predstavnika, verovatno je procena da niko to nije kvalitetom zasluzio (sto jeste diskutabilno). 
Kao sto vec rekoh, bilo bi jako ruzno i glupo nazvati nekog laikom u svom poslu. To nisam uradio. Profesor metodologije treninga na univerzitetu je sasvim sigurno ekspert u svom poslu. Ipak, taj posao nema dodirnih tacaka sa analizom aktivnosti fudbalskih arbitara.  
Svetski "aklejmovan" strucnjak nema apsolutno nikakav konflikt sa mojim "ostrim okom",koje je poslednjih godina sve osim ostro. Za razliku od engleskih sudija (i samo engleskih!!!) moj vid, kao i vid vecine mojih vrsnjaka, poceo je da slabi jos od 40, a od 45 cak rapidno. On 
bi eventualno mogao imati konflikt sa FIFA, sa priznatim strucnjacima bas iz oblasti sudijske arbitraze na osnovu cijih istrazivanja (uz ucesce veceg broja aktivnih i bivsih sudija, bez kojeg bi svaka analiza sudjenja bila trivijalna i nekompetentna). On bi takodje mogao biti u konfliktu sa hiljadama svetskih strucnjaka iz raznih oblasti koji misle da se fizicke karakteristike coveka menjaju kroz vreme i da postoji proces starenja, te da neko sa 50 godina ne moze obavljati posao koji zahteva poprilicnu fizicku spremnost.
To jest, mogao bi biti u konfliktu sa njima da ovo istrazivanje pokazuje ono sto smo mi u prvom trenutku pomislili.
Ipak, nakon pazljivog citanja celog istrazivanja, moj zakljucak je da ono i nema veza sa stvarima o kojima mi diskutujemo.
U njemu se nigde ne pominje starosna dob analiziranih sudija, samo experienced (za tebe i englesku sudijsku organizaciju je to 50-51, za mene i ostatak sveta 40-41). Interesantno je da su ostala dva clana istrazivackog tima ortopedi, sto mi moglo navesti da se ovde, u stvari, istrazuje korelacija izmedju sudjenja i sportskih povreda (na sta i mnogi linkovi na materijale koriscene pri istrazivanju ukazuju). To je prilicno "gray area" jer je uticaj sudjenja na sportske povrede dosta kontraverzan topik.
Na kraju krajeva, in "summary", istrazivaci zakljucuju: "Although we have demonstrated a negative correlation between distance covered and activity and competition standard, the physical activity across all competitions was intense and this reaffirms the high levels of fitness required by officials."; dakle, to je bila svrha istrazivanja. Za poredjenje sudjenja engleske i ostalih liga, i uzorak i ceo metod bi bio sasvim drugaciji. 
Jedan od zakljucaka je:
"More experienced referees probably demonstrate better positioning allowing them to follow the game more closely..."  
probably? To je ovde kljucna rec. Nijedan od podataka u samom radu ne pokazuje ovo, niti se u ijednoj od tabela pominje iskustvo/starost sudija. Iz tog se da zakljuciti da to nije ni istrazivano, vec je kontekst ove recenice upravo konstatacija da ta cinjenica verovatno utice u izvesnoj meri na rezultate. U stvari ako ovo "more experienced" znaci sudije 40-45 u poredjenju sa sudijama 30-35, slozio bih se u potpunosti. Ali, ako je to 45-52, u odnosu na 37-44, onda smo u "wild disagreement".
Inace, u ovom konkretnom slucaju i dalje mislim da je istrazivanje lose odradjeno, bazirano na mom visegodisnjem iskustvu (od 2002) sa naucnim istrazivanjima. Razlozi su pre svega apsolutno neprihvatljivi uzorci za grupe (14 vs 314), te fokusiranje na manje relevantnim pretrcanim distancama (sto ima veze sa dinamikom meca), umesto na najvaznijoj komponenti tog trcanja (a najvise testirane od strane FIFA), a to su sprintovi (tek je navedeno da nijedan nije bio duzi od 8-9 sekundi, sto je gotovo irelevantan podatak). Serije sprintova su upravo mesto gde najvise sudija pada na testovima (i nesto sto je najteze i fizicki najzahtevnije na treninzima fudbalera).

Taj narativ "engleske sudije su najlosije u Evropi" nisam upotrebio. Rekao sam "u ostalim kvalitetnim ligama", i tu sam mislio na pet najjacih liga. Gledam dovoljan broj utakmica iz 4-5 od 44, sto je nekih 10% od evropskih "prvih" liga. To je kao diskutovati o 300 stranica velikoj publikaciji, posle procitanih tridesetak. Povrsnost je osobina za koju imam najmanje razumevanja u zivotu. 

Diskusija je pocela tvojim komentarom mog posta o PPP zabludama. Pre svega, nikad u zivotu nisam bio deo nikakvog copora; valjda zato blazeno ignorisem pop kulturu, te nikad nisam voleo sve ono sto vole mladi i oni "cool". Postujem sve ovde i ocekujem isto, bez obzira da li nam se misljenja razlikuju o odredjenoj temi ili ne. Osim toga, zabluda se konstatuje nekom apsolutno inferiornom. Dozvoli da se ne osecam tako u odnosu na ostale forumase, ako ni zbog cega, jer ne znam dovoljno o njima. Ni o obrazovanju, ni zivotnim dostignucama, navikama, sistemima vrednosti. Konstatovanje zablude vecem delu svetu bi ipak zahtevalo daleko kvalitetnije argumente. Rekao sam da mislim da je kvalitet sudjenja u PL losiji nego u ostalim kvalitetnim ligama (mislio sam na lige petice). Iz tog razlika, smatram da je sasvim opravdano da u ovom trenutku imamo 8 FIFA arbitara iz Engleske, po 10 iz cetiri ostale lige.
Po meni je razlog tome, nesrazmeran broj prestarih i fizicki nespremnih sudija (ne po kriterijumu mog "ostrog oka", vec FIFA koja je u fudbalu ipak malo veci autoritet od mene ili profesora metodologije treninga na univerzitetu, uz primedbu da njegovo istrazivanje u stvari vise potvrdjuje stav FIFA da je high level of fitness i te kako neophodan), te nesrazmerno veliki broj utakmica za koje su te prestare sudije delegirane (pri tom ne mislim na VAR, gde fitness nije toliko vazan).

Svako dobro

Edited January 7, 2021 by mrdja

[Jean-Luc Picard]

Izgleda da je završeno ovo sa Hallerom u Ajaksu za 25 miliona ojra. Biće zanimljivo videti koga će Mojesara dovući od napadača, jer nema šanse da ostane samo sa Antoniom.

[John Coltrane]

A i Snodgrasa ste prodali u WBA koji je pazario i nekog dedu iz Stouka da bude zamena Džonstonu.

[Baldrick S.]

Liverpul i Aston vila i dalje ne znaju da li igraju sutra tekmu FA kupa. Vila poslala sopstenje da je dobar deo prvotimaca zarazen, zatvoren je trening kompleks, poslali pismo nadleznima niko se ne javlja sa resenjem.

[John Coltrane]

Što bi značilo 10 dana odmora pred meč sa UTD koji bi odigrao još 2 meča do 17.1.

[Baldrick S.]

Znas i sam da ce Klop u FA kupu da izvede u23, igrala Vila sa prvim ili 3. ekipom

[Sandens]

2 hours ago, Jean-Luc Picard said:

Izgleda da je završeno ovo sa Hallerom u Ajaksu za 25 miliona ojra. Biće zanimljivo videti koga će Mojesara dovući od napadača, jer nema šanse da ostane samo sa Antoniom.

 

najrealnije deluje josh king za sada, mada bih voleo i ludog arnauta da vidim opet u west hamu.

[kipo]

14 hours ago, ArleKino said:

-sudije ne nose jednak teret i, u najboljoj namjeri, ne mogu izbjeći greške kao posljedice fizičkog zamora,

Mos: Daj 5 karata!

[WTID]

Southampton - Shrewsbury - Odlozeno pocetkom iduce nedelje odluka da li Soutampton dobija sluzbenim rezultatom.

Derby sigurno izlazi sa omladincima.

Wednesday ima tri trenera zarazena, i nekoliko igraca, ekipu ce voditi trener mladjih selekijca, jos uvek nepoznato ko ce izaci na teren (omladinci ili kombinovano).

[WTID]

3 hours ago, Zlurad said:

Liverpul i Aston vila i dalje ne znaju da li igraju sutra tekmu FA kupa. Vila poslala sopstenje da je dobar deo prvotimaca zarazen, zatvoren je trening kompleks, poslali pismo nadleznima niko se ne javlja sa resenjem.

 

Igraju Villa i Livepool sutra.

 

 

[Weenie Pooh]

Ne znam šta je tu toliko čudno, prošle sezone je LFC poslao svoj podmladak na Vilu jer im je utakmica bila zakazana u isto vreme kad i Club World Cup u Kataru.

 

Ove sezone će biti deca protiv dece (i Origija), dakle nešto ravnopravnije.

[copkillah]

10 hours ago, Weenie Pooh said:

Ne znam šta je tu toliko čudno, prošle sezone je LFC poslao svoj podmladak na Vilu jer im je utakmica bila zakazana u isto vreme kad i Club World Cup u Kataru.

 

Ove sezone će biti deca protiv dece (i Origija), dakle nešto ravnopravnije.

 

[Jean-Luc Picard]

13 hours ago, Sundance Kid said:

 

najrealnije deluje josh king za sada, mada bih voleo i ludog arnauta da vidim opet u west hamu.

 

Spominje se neki napadač iz francuske lige, iz Remsa konkretno. Ime nisam zapamtio a mrzi me sada da guglam.

 

edit: našao...Boulaye Dia je u pitanju.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Jean-Luc Picard