Španija i Katalonija

[Eraserhead]

Srbiji je devedesetih falio "demokratski legitimitet", u suprotnom niko se ne bi osvrtao na siledžijstvo i brutalnost Slobinih falangi.

Sad vidimo kako to izgleda u zapadnim demokratijama.

 

Pa sad ovo je samo delimicno tacno. Nije ni Kosovo dobilo nezavisnost 81. ili 91. nego (de facto) 99. Dosta toga se desilo izmedju.

[bradilko]

u sfrjot je bio 1 sloba koji je bio takav deda mraz za sve da je to neverovatno.niko u hrvatskoj,mne, na kosovu ili sloveniji nije čak ni sanjao to što su dobili na kraju.on je tako to vodio da su se stvari same nametale.redak debil pored ostalog.

niko ipak u madridu nije od te fele a nadam se ni u barseloni.

[Lancia]

Rahoj odbio pregovore sa Puigdemontom uz posredovanje Iglesiasa, uz izgovor da nema razgovora sa ucenjivacima. Sta imamo veceras, imamo organizovano lupanje u serpe i lonce u vreme TV intervjua Puigdemonta, zakazano za 21h.

 

Ovakva doza neozbiljnosti i zadrtosti s jedne i druge strane, ne sluti na dobro. Ceka se i taj fakin' ponedeljak i obecano proglasenje nezavisnosti.

[Filozof manijak]

Rahoj odbio pregovore sa Puigdemontom uz posredovanje Iglesiasa, uz izgovor da nema razgovora sa ucenjivacima. Sta imamo veceras, imamo organizovano lupanje u serpe i lonce u vreme TV intervjua Puigdemonta, zakazano za 21h.

 

Ovakva doza neozbiljnosti i zadrtosti s jedne i druge strane, ne sluti na dobro. Ceka se i taj fakin' ponedeljak i obecano proglasenje nezavisnosti.

 

Nisumi jasni, pogotovo vlasti u Madridu....zar misle da  je zatezanje i zaoštravanje prava politka?

[Lancia]

Nista oni ne zatezu, samo stite ustavni poredak i legitimitet. Blagosiljao i kralj.

[mlatko]

Nema kompromisa, inace se gubi krebidilitet. nista sto vec ne znamo ali necemo opet da cujemo.

[Lancia]

Mala opaska, nije moj komentar, ali se kompletno slazem: povodom samoinicijativne konferencije za stampu Piquea i nakon uzduz i popreko ispitivanja, kaze jedan tip, 'Tuga jedna, vise sam pametnih stvari cuo od jednog fudbalera za pola sata, nego od svih politicara zajedno u poslednje vreme'.

[MancMellow]

Ovo pritiskanje s desna što rade C's je baš, onako, odgovorno...

[vememah]

Uhapsite Vlasija!

 

[Filozof manijak]

Deja vu, ali bukvalno

[gospa buba]

i nama je to isto jednom izgledalo kao ma nema shanse. bar nekima od nas

[vememah]

Evropski establišment čvrsto iza Rahoja.

 

Brussels defends use of ‘proportionate force’ in Catalonia

In European Parliament debate, Commission First Vice President Frans Timmermans sides squarely with Madrid.

By    MAÏA DE LA BAUME AND DAVID M. HERSZENHORN    10/4/17, 3:48 PM CET Updated 10/4/17, 7:38 PM CET

STRASBOURG — The Spanish government’s “proportionate use of force” in Catalonia was necessary to uphold the rule of law, the European Commission declared on Wednesday.

As the European Parliament opened a debate on the Catalonia crisis, Commission First Vice President Frans Timmermans sided unequivocally with the Madrid government.

Timmermans minced no words in condemning the effort to hold an independence referendum as a violation of the Spanish constitution and, therefore, as a threat to the rule of law in all EU countries.

His comments were met by the continuing fury and disbelief of Catalans who insist the referendum was intended as a democratic expression of free speech and self-determination.

The debate in Strasbourg was allowed to proceed only after Parliament leaders agreed to narrowly define the subject as “the rule of law and fundamental rights in Spain in light of the events in Catalonia” — a demand made by the European People’s Party, the largest political group, which includes Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy’s Popular Party.

Timmermans, in the opening address, said, “We have shaped our democratic societies based on three principles: democracy, respect for the rule of law and human rights … The three need each other, they cannot exclude each other.” He continued, “If you remove one pillar, then the others will fall too.”

“The regional government of Catalonia has chosen to ignore the law in organizing the referendum of last Sunday,” he said.

Perhaps most strikingly, Timmermans defended the use of force by the Spanish police on Sunday. The police action resulted in jarring images of voters, including women and elderly citizens, being dragged away from polling stations — a stunning scene of unrest in a large Western democracy.

“Let me be clear: Violence does not solve anything in politics. It is never an answer, never a solution. And it can never be used as a weapon or instrument,” he said.

“None of us want to see violence in our societies,” Timmermans went on. “However it is a duty for any government to uphold the law, and this sometimes does require the proportionate use of force.”

Continuing his speech, he suggested that the Catalan authorities were demanding greater respect for their rights than they were willing to afford others in Spain.

“Freedom of expression is a fundamental right of all European citizens and thus for all Spanish citizens,” Timmermans said. “But one opinion is not more valuable than another opinion only because it is expressed more loudly.”

The debate was arranged in such a way that only group leaders — none of whom are Spanish — could speak. But during a separate session earlier on Wednesday, MEP Jordi Solé from the pro-independence Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya turned to Timmermans to say: “If European institutions keep saying that it’s all about the law, and nothing else than the law, and that it’s an internal matter, you will deserve the world record for turning Catalan pro-Europeans citizens into Euroskeptics.”

Ryszard Legutko, a Polish MEP who is co-leader of the European Conservatives and Reformists group, used the Catalan debate to slam Timmermans and the Commission for hypocrisy.

“The European Commission repeatedly resorts to moralistic language, we just heard it,” said Legutko, whose country has been in a running battle over the rule of law with the Commission.

“When we view the action of the Commission in the handling of this particular situation in Catalonia, it looks more like a union of selective values. The double standards of the Commission is something that leaps to the eye. All are equal but some are more equal than others.”

“Let’s be honest,” he added. “If it was another member state, not Spain, the consequences and the rhetoric from the Commission would have been far harsher.”

At a briefing for journalists in Strasbourg, a senior Spanish diplomat pleaded for support for Madrid, describing the situation as a “coup” and warning that Catalan regional leader Carles Puigdemont may be “contemplating war.” The diplomat repeated Madrid’s flat rejection of an international mediator, calling it “out of the question.”

The diplomat said Madrid was open to dialogue with the regional Catalan authorities provided there was respect for Spanish law.

The leader of the center-right EPP, Manfred Weber, called the Catalonian government “irresponsible,” and said it was “splitting the country.” He called for dialogue, saying the conflict “can only be solved by the Spanish people themselves.”

Weber echoed the Commission’s warnings that Catalonia, even if it found a legal way to separate from Spain, would find itself outside the EU with no guarantee of returning. “Leaving the internal market, leaving the Schengen area and leaving Eurozone: is this really the Catalans’ best interest?” he asked.

Gianni Pittella, the Italian leader of the Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats (SPD), dismissed the referendum as “useless” and urged Catalan authorities not to declare independence, warning that “it could trigger new confrontation and new disasters.”

Belgian MEP and former prime minister Guy Verhofstadt, leader of Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe, urged both sides to meet at a negotiating table. “The future of Catalonia as in my own Flemish region lies not in brutal separation,” Verhofstadt said.

So far, however, Madrid has indicated no willingness to negotiate with the Catalans and has effectively demanded a complete surrender.

Support for Madrid was hardly unanimous in the Parliament, though leaders sought to limit the debate in part to restrict the number of pro-Catalan speakers.

Patrick Le Hyarric, a French MEP from the far-left GUE group, criticized EU countries who “turn a blind eye” on Catalonia while “the nation is ripping itself apart.”

“The EU must condemn the violation of the fundamental rights,” Le Hyarric said. “This crisis is not unfamiliar to us. We can’t accept politics based on violence in the EU.”

http://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-defends-use-of-proportionate-force-in-catalonia/

 

Edited October 4, 2017 by vememah

[Bojan]

Evo kontriraju i Katalonci - krenuli da izbacuju nacionalnu policiju iz hotela.
 

Some 150 members of the Civil Guard were forced to quit their hotel accommodation in the coastal town of Calella, Catalonia on Monday morning after a protest by locals against police brutality in the banned referendum in the region mutated into a demonstration demanding the police forces leave.

According to Catalan newspaper La Vanguardia, the mayor of the coastal town, Monserrat Candini told a group of 500 protestors on Sunday evening “We don’t want the hotels in Calella to be a barracks.”

The protestors repeatedly chanted “You’re not welcome” at the Civil Guard.

I ovo saopštenje policijskog sindikata (ne znam koliko je reprezentativan) dodatno dramatizuje stvar
 

 

The unfortunate incidents that are happening right now in Catalonia, where the State Security Forces and Corps are surrounded in the hotels, abandoned to their fate, betrayed by some disloyal Mozos de Escuadra, incited by politicians TRAIDORES to the State, attending in direct via wasap to the lynching of our fellow Civil Guards, leave us with no other remedy than to ask for action, to be released, to be comforted, to be assisted, to make decisions.

Mr. Rajoy, Mr. Sanchez, Mr. Rivera : The Civil Guard dies, but does not give up. The Civil Guard is to serve with honor to its State, with loyalty, with abnegation, with firmness, with prudence, being calm before the danger and politicians without violence. Civil guards do not pour gas into the fire, like some politicians who are craving for the fracture of the state, anarchy, revolution, nonsense. They simply live up to the circumstances.

And they live up to the circumstances even though Catalonia itself looks like the Basque Country in 1981. They rise to the occasion despite being harassed, manipulated and vilified by the citizens they serve.

You are up to the circumstances. Dialogues, yes, but act . Act before it is too late, to notice that there is a sense of state and do not give the public opinion that there is no state. Do not let your public servants pay for mistakes, inaction, watch over them or take them away.

Whatever they do, we do not judge them, the Civil Guard dies, but does not give up. It is history that will judge you, not us, because we are LEAL.

PROFESSIONAL CIVIL GUARD OFFICERS UNION

Madrid, October 03, 2017

 

(prevedeno pomoću google translate sa španskog)

 

 

 

Sad tek videh da je i Barselona odigrala prvenstvenu utakmicu pred praznim stadionom. Hteli i da odlože, ali bi verovatno bili suočeni sa time da bi utakmica bila službeno registsrovana rezultatom 3-0 u korist protivnika.

 

Kad smo već kod kralja, fudbala i navijača. Evo jednog snimka susreta dve navijačke grupe pred utakmicu finala Kupa Kralja 2015. u Barceloni.

 

 

edit: ko ne prati fudbal ovi crveno-beli su Baski

Edited October 4, 2017 by Bojan

[Budja]

Ne vidim politicku razliku, pravo na protest je pravo na protest. Vidim ljudsku razliku i taj sto je vukao zenu sa tasnom za kosu je mnogo veci skot. Oni sto su, iz cista mira udarali devojke po nogama bi morali da zavrse sa prijavama. Ali ne zajebavajmo se, to nije vid brutalnosti koji opravdava ili ne secesiju. To je recimo vid policihjske brutalnosti zbog koje se zahteva ostavka ministra policije. Ili eventualno vlade.

 

E a ovaj deo mi se posebno svideo iz Politico-a

 

 

E ovo je glavni problem na koji sam ti ukazivao da ce biti cena osteritija u celoj Evropi. Drumovi ce zazeljet socijalista, kao sto je Podemos, i socijaldemokrata (PSOE), ali ovih nigde biti nece. Umesto toga dobijamo nacional-komuniste tipa CUP i likove kao sto su Pudjdemon i Rojoy koji su hodajuci izazivaci kriza. A koliko se secam i C's su ti bili super. Bujrum.

 

Dobro, jesam pojeo govno sa Cs, placam danak manjku informacija.

 

 

Sto se tice PSOE, oni su sami sebi iskopali rupu, kao i nemacki i francuski socdem, i pre ove krize. Ne znam zasto ih stavljas u isti lonac sa Podemos.

 

Inace, i Felipe VI je izazivac krize. BBC je primetio:

1. Nigde poziva na uzdrzanost i dijalog.

2. Nijedna jedina rec na katalonskom.

[hazard]

Da se nadovežem na ovo što Krošek pominje. Jedan zanimljiv osvrt na upotrebu jezika i pravo na obrazovanje na maternjem jeziku u Kataloniji.

 

Ahahaha, znači to su ti jadni potlačeni Katalonci, sprovode monolingvalno obrazovanje na katalonskom, a španski ko jebe. Pa jadničci, ne daju im da iskažu svoj identitet 

Edited October 4, 2017 by hazard