Španija i Katalonija

[dragance]

Jebo te, vidim u Gardijanu i ostalim vestima neki dan reakcije svetskih politicara na situaciju tamo - pa ima US State Dept, EU Guy, pa fr Makron, Angela i Dacic!

Koji sumrak mozga.

 

A Spaniji kao da su doturili Slobin prirucnik kako se nositi sa separatistima. Sa istim uspehom ce i zavrsiti ako nastave ovako.

[MancMellow]

Ja mislim da je pogrešno i neodgovarajuće svako poređenje sa Srbijom, ali neću ulaziti dublje u tu priču jer bi bilo žešće trolovanje topika. Može poseban topik, tipa "Separatizam juče danas sutra" ili tako nešto pa da se na miru svađamo 

Edited October 3, 2017 by MancMellow

[dragance]

Taman posla da poredjujem Srbiju sa Spanijom, ali nacin kako reaguju je toliko glup da jedini rezultat koji mogu da dobiju sa ovakvim pristupom je onaj najgori moguci.

[jms_uk]

BREAKING NEWS BBC:

 

Catalonia will declare independence from Spain in a matter of days, region's leader Carles Puigdemont tells the BBC

[Lancia]

BREAKING NEWS BBC:

 

Catalonia will declare independence from Spain in a matter of days, region's leader Carles Puigdemont tells the BBC

BBC dobija vesti preko goluba pismonose?  :)

[jms_uk]

BBC dobija vesti preko goluba pismonose?  :)

 

Traje malo dok Manuel prevede vesti :)

[Lancia]

Traje malo dok Manuel prevede vesti :)

opravdano;)

[vememah]

Jacobin razgovarao sa predstavnikom manje katalonske vladajuće partije.

Tizer:

Amid a general strike in Catalonia, we speak to Lluc Salellas of anticapitalist party CUP about the next steps for the independence movement.
...
It has been a fast-moving few days in Catalan politics. What do you expect to happen next?

The next step is the declaration by the Catalan parliament. We still don’t know exactly what it will entail but we hope it will be a proclamation of a republic. That should happen by the end of the week. The mass demonstrations of recent days will continue through the week and probably reach their highest point around the declaration. There will also be symbolic actions to defend it, probably ones that will have an impact on the economy here and in Spain.

The aim is to put the declaration on the table with Catalan, Spanish, and international representatives and negotiate. At the same time we expect the Catalan government will try to act as an independent government, encouraging the Catalan people to respect its mandate and do things like pay taxes to it.

The Spanish state will probably try to use Article 155 of the constitution to definitively end our autonomy. They may also arrest the Catalan president, as well as other political figures. If this happens, the streets will rise up and we will have a major confrontation. The independence movement has a lot of people — I estimate up to a million — ready to be very active in this campaign over a long period of time. It won’t be easy for the Spanish state to repress a movement of that size.

https://jacobinmag.com/2017/10/catalonia-referendum-spain-catalan-independence

[porucnik vasic]

Dzaba se nadas, osim par pendrekovanih hipstera se nista dramaticno nece desiti a Katalonija ce, izvesno je, nekad postati nezavisna mirnim putem. Jebiga nemaju oni magacine TO da snadbeju lokalne kabadahije neophodnim oruzjem. Ili gde da ga kupe kao penzosi po Las Vegasu. A i previse su hipsteri.

Tako da gledaj lokalne vesti i uzivaj.

Јашта, ено је самостална већ постаје самостална 350 година.  А Јевропа и њено лицемерје тек долазе на наплату. Бртитанија прво, па сад ово, па Француска, иде све то својим током. На нашу срећу. 

 

Jel ti ono bese zivis u Americi pod moranjem, mislim ja ne znam kako bih to podneo na tvom mestu  :(

Да. Зато што не могу да живим у својој Отаџбини. 

[Lancia]

Да. Зато што не могу да живим у својој Отаџбини. 

Ne bih da ulazim u ovo, suvise je privatno, vidim samo da te potresa Indijevo pisanje o Americi, vidis svi negde zivimo rasuti po zemlji i nije bas prijatno cuti da neko zeli zlo teritoriji kojoj pripada ili se u najmanju ruku nasladjuje tudjom nevoljom.

[hazard]

Hm.

 

 

Securing breathing space would be the easy part. The two sides would then have to face the gulf between Catalan demands for a right to vote on secession and the limits on Madrid’s ability to concede further autonomy. Granting Catalonia the same fiscal autonomy as the Basques, for example, would punch a hole in the national budget that would hit not only the Popular Party clientele but also Socialist heartlands such as Andalusia.

 

[Bojan]

Pa to je stvar za dijalog. Ako misle da ce bolje ziveti tako sto ce imati svoju vojsku i spoljnu politiku...onda su neumitno on a collision course sa centralnom drzavom. Ali ako misle da ce bolje ziveti tako sto ce potpuno upravljati svojim finansijama (koliko je to moguce u okviru EZ), onda ima prostora za dijalog. 

 

Meni nije za očekivati da će ići na potpunu nezavisnost. Sam si već u jednom od prethodnih postova naveo razloge. Samo da dodam da bi ostanak izvan EU Katalonce dosta koštao. A čisto sumnjam da bi im Španija u neko dogledno vreme dopustila da se vrate. A sa ovakvim referendumom kao osnovom za proglašenje nezavisnosti bi ih priznao - niko.

 

Međutim, nisam siguran ni koliko je izvodljivo i ovo boldovano u tvom postu. Sadašnja vlada u Madridu je udarila đonom. Ne znam koliko su oni spremni da sednu i razgovaraju oko ovoga, pogotovo što ova desno-centristička nomenklatura već duže vremena igra oštro prema Kataloniji. Na neki način su Katalonci izigrani kada je Ustavni sud suspendovao jedan deo odredbi Statuta koji je verifikovan i od strane nacionalnog i katalonskog parlamenta. Kažu da su se suspendovane odredbe odnosile upravo na veću fiskalnu autonomiju.

 

Prethodno su ovu stvar oko Statuta Katalonije dogovorili vladajući socijalisti (Zapatero) i katalonski socijalisti. PP je bio protiv i uspeo je na kraju da preko Ustavnog suda podrije celu stvar. Naravno pozivajući se na član 2. Ustava koji garantuje da su Španci jedinstvena nacija i da moraju biti solidarni jedni prema drugima

 

 

 

Article 2

The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation, the common and indivisible country of all Spaniards; it recognises and guarantees the right to autonomy of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed, and the solidarity amongst them all.

 

 

 

Naravno, ova odluka je već tada (2010) izazvala revolt pa je kasnije organizovan neobavezujući referendum (2014). Koliko sam shvatio tada su na vlasti u Kataloniji bili socijalisti. Pućdemon je već tada obećao i sada i sproveo obavezujući referendum.

 

Mislim čak da bi ovi oko Pućdemona sada prihvatili da im se ponovo verifikuje Statut iz 2006. sa možda još nekim dodatnim ustupcima. Ali ako se PP i njihovi partneri budu držali španskog Ustava teško će ići. Evo kakve sve kompetencije ekskluzivno pripadaju centralnoj vlasti:

 

 

 

Article 149

 1. The State holds exclusive competence over the following matters:

 i) regulation of the basic conditions guaranteeing the equality of all Spaniards in the exercise of their rights and in the fulfilment of their constitutional duties; ii) nationality, immigration, emigration, status of aliens, and right to asylum; iii) international relations; iv) defence and the Armed Forces; v) administration of Justice; vi) commercial, criminal and penitentiary legislation; procedural legislation, without prejudice to the necessary special applications in these fields derived from the peculiar features of the substantive law of the Autonomous Communities; vii) labour legislation without prejudice to its execution by the bodies of the Autonomous Communities; viii) civil legislation, without prejudice to the preservation, modification and development by the Autonomous Communities of their civil laws, «fueros» or special laws, whenever these exist; in any event the enactments related to the application and effectiveness of legal provisions, legalcivil relations arising froms the form of marriage. The keeping of records and drawing up of public instruments, bases of contractual obligations, rules for resolving legal conflicts and determination of the sources of law in conformity, in this last case, with the rules of the «fueros» or with those of special laws. ix) legislation on intellectual and industrial property; x) customs and tariff regulations; foreign trade; xi) monetary system: foreign currency, exchange and convertibili - ty; bases for the regulations concerning credit, banking and insurance; xii) legislation on weights and measures, determination of the official time; xiii) bases and coordination of general planning of economic activity; xiv) general finances and the State Debt; xv) promotion and general coordination of scientific and techni - cal research; xvi) external health measures; bases and general coordination of health matters; legislation on pharmaceutical products; xvii) basic legislation and financial system of the Social Security, without prejudice to the implementation of its services by the Auton - omous Communities; xviii) the bases of the legal system of Public Administration and the statutes of their public officials which shall, in any case, guaran - tee that all persons under said administration will receive equal treat - ment; the common administrative procedure, without prejudice to the special features of the Autonomous Community’s own organisa - tions; legislation on compulsory expropriation; basic legislation on contracts and administrative concessions and the system of liability of all Public Administrations; xix) sea fishing, without prejudice to the powers which, in the regulations governing this sector, shall be conferred on the Autono - mous Communities; xx) merchant navy and the registering of ships; lighting of coasts and signals at sea; general purpose ports; general-purpose airports; control of air space, air traffic and transport; meteorological services and registration of aircraft; xxi) railways and land transport passing through the territory of more than one Autonomous Community; general sytem of communi - cations; motor vehicle traffic; Post Office services and telecommuni - cations; air and underwater cables and radio communications; xxii) legislation, regulation and concession of hydraulic resources and development when the waters flow through more than one Autonomous Community, and authorisation for hydro-electrical installations when their development affects another Community or when energy transport goes beyaon its territorial area; xxiii) basic legislation on environmental protection, without preju - dice to the powers of the Autonomous Communities to establish addi - tional protective measures; basic legislation on woodlands, forestry, and livestock trails; xxiv) public works of general benefit or whose execution affects more than one Autonomous Community; xxv) bases of the organisation of mining and energy; xxvi) system of production, sale, possession and use of arms and explosives; xxvii) basic rules relating to the organisation of the press, radio and television and, in general, all the means of social communica - tion, without prejudice to the powers vested in the Autonomous Communities related to their development and implementation; xxviii) protection of Spain’s cultural and artistic heritage and national monuments against exportation and despoliation; museums, libraries and archives belonging to the State, without prejudice to their management by the Autonomous Communities; xxix) public safety, without prejudice to the possibility of the creation of police forces by the Autonomous Communities, in the manner to be laid down in their respective Statutes and within the framework to be established by an organic law; xxx) regulation of the conditions relative to the obtaining, issuing and standardisation of academic degrees and professional qualifications and basic rules for the development of Article 27 of the Constitution, in order to guarantee the fulfilment of the obligations of the public authorities in this matter; xxxi) statistics for State purposes; xxxii) authorisation for popular consultations through the holding of referendums.

 

 

 

Evo i šta kaže član 155. koji bi španska vlada mogla da potegne u nekom jako lošem scenariju, a koji do sada nije korišćen:

 

 

 

Article 155

1. If an Autonomous Community does not fulfil the obligations imposed upon it by the Constitution or other laws, or acts in a way seriously prejudicing the general interests of Spain, the Government, after lodging a complaint with the President of the Autonomous Community and failing to receive satisfaction therefore, may, following approval granted by an absolute majority of the Senate, take the measures necessary in order to compel the latter forcibly to meet said obligations, or in order to protect the above-mentioned general interests.

2. With a view to implementing the measures provided in the foregoing clause, the Government may issue instructions to all the authorities of the Autonomous Communities.

 

[harper lee]

Fino su to Spanci smislili. Baskima koje pas nema za sta da ujede totalna fiskalna autonomija a za bogate Katalonce radi Ustavni sud da bi im se uzele pare. U jednoj istoj drzavi. 

[MancMellow]

Hm.

 

Pametan tekst ali je pitanje ima li pilota u avionu. 

[MancMellow]

Fino su to Spanci smislili. Baskima koje pas nema za sta da ujede totalna fiskalna autonomija a za bogate Katalonce radi Ustavni sud da bi im se uzele pare. U jednoj istoj drzavi. 

 

?