iDemo Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 How fragile the belief of an Islamist must be if he feels threatened by a stupid caricature ključno. ako nečije verovanje može ugroziti karikatura toliko da je jedini izlaz vidi u ubistvu, onda je ta vera na klimavim nogama... Ne znam, meni on to nije dobro ispratio - ja bi rekao da je njihova poruka nesto kao - "meni je to sveto, s time nema zezanja" (cak i ako nije zabranjeno zezati se s time, ono "pozitivnim zakonskim propisima u zemlji u kojoj satiricni casopisi izlazi"... Nesto u tom smislu.
steins Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 Meni je ona Blicova budalaština došla ko lakmus test. I ni malo mi se ne svidjaju rezultati.
yolo Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) Опа, Ниче, Јејтс, заблуде левице, њен страх да каже истину јер се плаши етикете исламофобије, поклапање простора екстремне левице и екстремног ислама... Избаци ли се пар фразетина са краја текста и једно пословично шупље "лажна левица" са почетка (све су левице лажне јер та идеализована постоји само у главама теоретичара), коначно долазимо до Жижековог текста који је мени нешто више од guilty pleasure читања левичара који лепо пише. Prerano si zapevao Prsline, pazi da ne završiš u supi. Ne bavi se ovaj tekst levicom nego liberalnim kapitalizmom. I nije naročito originalan, naprotiv (pogled datum ovde dole): Slavoj Žižek: Only a radicalised left can save Europe Austerity is not “too radical”, as some leftist critics claim, but, on the contrary, too superficial, an act of avoiding the true roots of the crisis, says Slavoj Žižek. BY SLAVOJ ZIZEK PUBLISHED 25 JUNE, 2014 - 16:32 Europe is not just another geopolitical power block. Photo: Getty After the electoral triumph of the anti-immigrant eurosceptic parties in countries like France and UK, many liberals expressed their shock and worry. However, there was something of a feigned naivety in their surprise and indignation, in their wonder at how the victory of the populist right was possible. What one should wonder about is why it took the anti-immigrant right so long to make a decisive breakthrough. When Jean-Marie Le Pen made a tasteless gas-chamber joke about a French Jewish pop singer – “we’ll do an oven load next time” (Le Pen denies this was intended to be anti-Semitic) – his daughter Marine Le Pen publicly criticised him, thereby promoting her image as her father’s human face. It is irrelevant if this family conflict is staged or real – the oscillation between the two faces, the brutal one and the civilised one, is what defines today’s populist right. Beneath the civilised public face, there lurks its obscene, brutal underside, and the difference concerns only the degree to which this underside is openly admitted. Even if this obscene underside remains totally out of sight, even if it there are no slips in which it breaks through, it is there as a silent presupposition, as an invisible point of reference. Without her father’s spectre, Marine Le Pen doesn’t exist. There is no surprise in Le Pen’s message: the usual anti-elitist working class patriotism which targets trans-national financial powers and the alienated Bruxelles bureaucracy. And, effectively, Le Pen forms a clear contrast to the sterile European technocrats: addressing the worries of ordinary people, she brings passion back to politics. Even some disoriented leftists succumbed to the temptation to defend her: she rejects the non-elected Bruxelles financial technocrats who brutally enforce the interest of the international financial capital, prohibiting individual states prioritising the welfare of their own population; she thus advocates a politics that would be in contact with worries and cares of the ordinary working people – her party’s fascist outbursts are a thing of the past. . . What unites Le Pen and the European leftists who sympathise with her is their shared rejection of a strong Europe, and the return to the full sovereignty of nation states. The problem with this shared rejection is that, as they say in a joke, Le Pen is not looking for the causes of the distresses in the dark corner where they really are, but under the light, because one sees better there. It begins with the right premise: the failure of the austerity politics practised by the Bruxelles experts. When the Romanian leftist writer Panait Istrati visited Soviet Union in the 1930s, the time of the big purges and show trials, a Soviet apologist tried to convince him of the need for violence against enemies, evoking the proverb “You can’t make an omelette without breaking eggs”, to which Istrati tersely replied: “All right. I can see the broken eggs. Where’s this omelette of yours?” We should say the same about the austerity measures imposed by the Bruxelles technocrats: “OK, you are breaking our eggs all around Europe, but where’s the omelette you are promising us?” The least one can say is that the economic crisis of 2008 offers large proofs of how is it not the people but these experts themselves who, in their large majority, don’t know what they are doing. In western Europe, we are effectively witnessing a growing inability of the ruling elite – they know less and less how to rule. Look at how Europe is dealing with the Greek crisis: putting pressure on Greece to repay debts, but at the same time ruining its economy through imposed austerity measures and thereby making it sure the Greek debt will never be repaid. At the end of December 2012, the IMF itself released research showing that the economic damage from aggressive austerity measures may be as much as three times larger than previously assumed, thereby cancelling its own advice on austerity in the eurozone crisis. Now, the IMF admits that forcing Greece and other debt-burdened countries to reduce their deficits too quickly would be counterproductive… now, after hundreds of thousands of job have been lost because of such “miscalculations”. It is as if the providers and caretakers of debt accuse the indebted countries of not feeling enough guilt – they are accused of feeling innocent. Recall the ongoing EU pressure on Greece to implement austerity measures – this pressure fits perfectly what psychoanalysis calls superego. Superego is not an ethical agency proper, but a sadistic agent which bombards the subject with impossible demands, obscenely enjoying the subject’s failure to comply with them; the paradox of the superego is that, as Freud saw it clearly, the more we obey its demands, the more we feel guilty. Imagine a vicious teacher who gives his pupils impossible tasks, and then sadistically jeers when he sees their anxiety and panic. This is what is so terribly wrong with the EU’s demands andcommands: they don’t even give a chance to Greece, because Greek failure is part of the game. Therein resides the true message of the “irrational” popular protests all around Europe: the protesters know very well what they don’t know, they don’t pretend to have fast and easy answers, but what their instinct is telling them is nonetheless true – that those in power also don’t know it. In Europe today, the blind are leading the blind. Austerity politics is not really science, not even in a minimal sense; it is much closer to a contemporary form of superstition – a kind of gut reaction to an impenetrable complex situation, a blind common sense reaction of “things went wrong, we are somehow guilty, we have to pay the price and suffers, so let’s do something that hurts and spend less…”. Austerity is not “too radical”, as some leftist critics claim, but, on the contrary, too superficial, an act of avoiding the true roots of the crisis. However, can the idea of a united Europe be reduced to the reign of the Bruxelles technocrats? The proof that this is not the case is that the US and Israel, two exemplary nation states obsessed with their sovereignty, at some deep and often obfuscated level perceive European Union as the enemy. This perception, kept under control in the public political discourse, explodes in its underground obscene double, the extreme right Christian fundamentalist political vision with its obsessive fear of the New World Order (Obama is in secret collusion with the United Nations, international forces will intervene in the US and put in concentration camps all true American patriots – a couple of years ago, there were already rumors that Latino American troupes are already in the Midwest planes, building concentration camps. . .). This vision is deployed in hard-line Christian fundamentalism, exemplarily in the works of Tim LaHaye et consortes – the title of one of LaHaye’s novels points in this direction: The Europa Conspiracy. The true enemy of the US are not Muslim terrorists, they are merely puppets secretly manipulated by the European secularists, the true forces of the anti-Christ who want to weaken the US and establish the New World Order under the domination of the United Nations… In a way, they are right in this perception: Europe is not just another geopolitical power block, but a global vision which is ultimately incompatible with nation-states, a vision of a transnational order that guarantees certain rights (welfare, freedom, etc). This dimension of the EU provides the key to the so-called European “weakness”: there is a surprising correlation between European unification and its loss of global military-political power. So what is wrong with the Bruxelles technocrats? Not only their measures, their false expertise, but even more their modus operandi. The basic mode of politics today is a depoliticised expert administration and coordination of interests. The only way to introduce passion into this field, to actively mobilise people, is through fear: fear of immigrants, fear of crime, fear of godless sexual depravity, fear of the excessive state itself, with its burden of high taxation, fear of ecological catastrophe, fear of harassment (Political Correctness is the exemplary liberal form of the politics of fear). Progressive liberals are, of course, horrified by populist racism; however, a closer look soon reveals how their multicultural tolerance and respect for (ethnic, religious, sexual) others shares a basic premise with anti-immigrants: the fear of others clearly discernible in the liberals’ obsession with harassment. The other is fine, but only insofar as his presence is not intrusive, insofar as this other is not really other. . . No wonder the topic of “toxic subjects” is gaining ground recently. While this notion originates from popular psychology that warns us against the emotional vampires who prey on us out there, this topic is expanding much further than immediate interpersonal relations: the predicate “toxic” covers a series properties which belong to totally different levels (natural, cultural, psychological, political). A “toxic subject” can be an immigrant with a deadly disease who should be quarantined; a terrorist whose deadly plans should be prevented and who belongs to Guantanamo, the empty zone exempted from the rule of law; a fundamentalist ideologue who should be silenced because he is spreading hatred; a parent, teacher or priest who abuses and corrupts children. What is toxic is ultimately the foreign neighbour as such, so that the ultimate aim of all rules governing interpersonal relations is to quarantine or at least neutralise and contain this toxic dimension. On today’s market, we find a whole series of products deprived of their malignant property: coffee without caffeine, cream without fat, beer without alcohol. . . And the list goes on: what about virtual sex as sex without sex, the Colin Powell doctrine of warfare with no casualties (on our side, of course) as warfare without warfare, the contemporary redefinition of politics as the art of expert administration as politics without politics, up to today’s tolerant liberal multiculturalism as an experience of the other deprived of its otherness – the decaffeinated other who dances fascinating dances and has an ecologically sound holistic approach to reality, while features like wife beating remain out of sight. . . Is this detoxification of the immigrant Other not the main point of Nigel Farage’s Ukip programme? Farage repeatedly emphasises that he is not against the presence of foreign workers in the UK, that he highly appreciates the hard-working Poles and their contribution to the British economy. When he was asked on LBC about why he said that people wouldn't like to have Romanians living in the appartment next to their own, the contrast was immediately drawn with German neighbours – what worried him, he said, were people with criminal records being allowed to enter the UK. This is the stance of the “civilised” anti-immigrant right: the politics of the detoxified neighbour – good Germans versus bad Romanians or Roma. This vision of the detoxification of the Neighbour presents a clear passage from direct barbarism to barbarism with a human face. In what conditions does it arise? Walter Benjamin’s old thesis that behind every rise of fascism there is a failed revolution not only still holds today, but is perhaps more pertinent than ever. Rightist liberals like to point out similarities between left and right “extremisms”: Hitler’s terror and camps imitated Bolshevik terror, the Leninist party is today alive in al-Qaeda – does this not rather indicate how fascism replaces (takes the place of) a failed leftist revolution? Its rise is the left’s failure, but simultaneously a proof that there was a revolutionary potential, a dissatisfaction which the left was not able to mobilise. And does the same not hold for today’s so-called “islamo-fascism”? Is the rise of radical Islamism not correlative to the disappearance of the secular left in Muslim countries? Today, when Afghanistan is portrayed as the utmost Islamic fundamentalist country, who still remembers that, 30 years ago, it was a country with strong secular tradition, up to a powerful Communist party which took power there independently of the Soviet Union? As Thomas Frank has shown, the same goes for Kansas, the homegrown US version of Afghanistan: the very state which was till the 1970s the bedrock of radical leftist populism, is today the bedrock of Christian fundamentalism. And the same goes for Europe: the failure of the leftist alternative to global capitalism gives birth to anti-immigrant populism. Even in the case of clearly fundamentalist movements, one should be careful not to miss the social component. The Taliban are regularly presented as a fundamentalist Islamist group enforcing its rule with terror – however, when, in the spring of 2009, they took over the Swat Valley in Pakistan, New York Times reported that they engineered “a class revolt that exploits profound fissures between a small group of wealthy landlords and their landless tenants”. If, by taking advantage of the farmers’ plight, the Taliban are “raising alarm about the risks to Pakistan, which remains largely feudal”, what stops liberal democrats in Pakistan as well as the US similarly “taking advantage” of this plight and trying to help the landless farmers? The sad implication of this fact is that the feudal forces in Pakistan are the “natural ally” of the liberal democracy. . . And, mutatis mutandis, the same goes for Farage and Le Pen: their rise is the obverse of the demise of the radical left. The lesson that the frightened liberals should learn is thus: only a radicalised left can save what is worth saving from the liberal legacy. The sad prospect that lurks if this doesn’t happen is the unity of the two poles: the rule of nameless financial technocrats wearing a mask of populist pseudo-passions. Edited January 11, 2015 by yolo
harper lee Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 Meni je ona Blicova budalaština došla ko lakmus test. I ni malo mi se ne svidjaju rezultati. Pre par meseci je neka marginalna islamska organizacija podnela zahtev da se svi etnicki Norvezani isele iz jednog dela Osla (Grenland) u kojem dominiraju imigranti uglavom islamske veroispovesti, valjda zato sto svojim nacinom zivota uznemiravaju novopridoslu vecinu. Naravno, to je na tipican norveski nacin propraceno uctivim podsmehom ali je notirano kao krajnje neobicno ponasanje i zbog iskustva sa Breivikom nije bas toliko uzeto olako. Vec godinama pisem o puzajucem rastu broja mikrofasistickih zajednica po velikim evropskim gradovima koje su u fazi kada smatraju da imaju pravo da podnose zahteve koji su suprotni vrednostima drustava u kojima zive ali se oslanjaju na njihov verski, etnicki, kulturni svetonazor. Sva ova prica o tome da fokus rasprave nakon ubistva ovih karikaturista ne treba da bude na samom cinu ubistva vec na uvredljivosti karikatura na racun Muhameda generalno za kompletnu islamsku versku zajednicu iz nehata doliva ulje na vatru generalizacija stvaranjem utiska da su u Sarli Ebdo s opravdanim razlogom upali nekakvi muslimani a ne grupica terorista sa podebelim dosijeom. I sad se zbog te grupice terorista vatreno raspravlja o tome da li je karikatura X uvredljiva za bilo koga i da li bi mozda bilo pozeljno tu karikaturu ne nacrtati jer ce, mozes milti, grupica terorista da se uvredi i lati kalasnjikova. Namerno kazem grupica terorista jer odbijam da prihvatim diskurs u kojem ovakav dogadjaj/zlocin moze da bude predlozak za bilo kakvu raspravu o svrsishodnosti i ogranicenjima slobode govora u kojoj su glavni akteri zajednice od po nekoliko stotina miliona ljudi. Ako taj diskurs prihvatimo onda smo prihvatili i to da nam najgora ubilacka olos odredjuje kako cemo urediti svoje zajednice i medjusobno komunicirati.
iDemo Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 Ako taj diskurs prihvatimo onda smo prihvatili i to da nam najgora ubilacka olos odredjuje kako cemo urediti svoje zajednice i medjusobno komunicirati. Nisi u pravu. Tim oloshem se bavi 'narodna' milicija, vojska, interventni vodovi i - ako neko od njih nekad pretekne - bice i sudovi/zatvori i taj rad. Komunikacija i uredjenje svoje zajednice je sasvim drugi aspekt teme.
Weenie Pooh Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 Harpere, šta znači "fokus na samom činu ubistva"? Ubice su eliminisane, ubjeni su ožaljeni, svi mediji su ta dva dela priče intenzivno ispratili - kakav bi još fokus trebalo posvetiti? Da li to znači da ne treba pričati o uzrocima tog terorističkog čina? O činjenici da je islamski fundamentalizam živ & zdrav i savršeno mu se jebe za princip slobode govora? Da se efikasnije nego ikad ranije krije unutar neuporedivo širih muslimanskih zajednica, i to upravo zato što druga strana insistira na slavnom "sve je to ista bagra" principu? Ne sme se reći da se fetišizovanjem slobode govora ne postiše apsolutno ništa, ma koliko ljudi fantazirali o tome kako će pasivna odbrana savršenong blistavog grada na brdu rešiti sve probleme van njega? To je fokus na sopstveni pupak.
yolo Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) Sva ova prica o tome da fokus rasprave nakon ubistva ovih karikaturista ne treba da bude na samom cinu ubistva vec na uvredljivosti karikatura na racun Muhameda generalno za kompletnu islamsku versku zajednicu iz nehata doliva ulje na vatru generalizacija stvaranjem utiska da su u Sarli Ebdo s opravdanim razlogom upali nekakvi muslimani a ne grupica terorista sa podebelim dosijeom. I sad se zbog te grupice terorista vatreno raspravlja o tome da li je karikatura X uvredljiva za bilo koga i da li bi mozda bilo pozeljno tu karikaturu ne nacrtati jer ce, mozes milti, grupica terorista da se uvredi i lati kalasnjikova. Namerno kazem grupica terorista jer odbijam da prihvatim diskurs u kojem ovakav dogadjaj/zlocin moze da bude predlozak za bilo kakvu raspravu o svrsishodnosti i ogranicenjima slobode govora u kojoj su glavni akteri zajednice od po nekoliko stotina miliona ljudi. Ako taj diskurs prihvatimo onda smo prihvatili i to da nam najgora ubilacka olos odredjuje kako cemo urediti svoje zajednice i medjusobno komunicirati. Nisam siguran da je ta rasprava o karakaturama lice narativa da je zapad navukao mini suknju pa bio silovan. Barem ovo sto sam ja piskarao ovde a zbog cega se sad vec izvesno kajem jer me je ta neka nepatvorena iskrenost Indyjeve price prilicno razuverila da to ima smisla i da se nije desilo nesto sto prosto izmice svakom pokusaju racionalizacije, vec da su ludaci u cirkusu pobili klovnove. Jbmu misa, kada vidim crtez koji je deo iste stripovske skole u kojoj su rodjeni Iznogud i drugi stereotipi polomljenog nosa, moram da se zaustavim u toj izdrkanoj potrazi za pogresnom namerom, makar i nehoticnom. Ovog jutra mi se ti slomljeni nosevi ne cine da su nuzno oruzje necije supremacije. Eto, upao sam u taj "mama mama ubili su klovna" mod. Karikature jesu crvena zastava u lice ali nisu sustina koride i to je ovo sto je valjda Filip Ejdus prvi a mozda vec i jedini rekao, da ce zapad morati da zivi sa ovakvim terorizmom i da ce se ovakve stvari desavati i dalje - sto znaci da je islamski terorizam sastavni deo aktuelne dinamike odnosa zapada i muslimanskog sveta koji je prosta posledica ideoloskog rama u kome se islamski fundamentalizam i evropska lib dem sa svojom islamofobijom savrseno uklapaju. Meni inace pomalo pocinje da smeta to nase ponavljanje da teroristi nisu pravi muslimani. Ko ima pravo da to kaze i sta je uopste mera muslimanske "pravosti" danas u Francuskoj? A to je ono gde je Slavuj letos izbriljirao: "On today’s market, we find a whole series of products deprived of their malignant property: coffee without caffeine, cream without fat, beer without alcohol. . . And the list goes on: what about virtual sex as sex without sex, the Colin Powell doctrine of warfare with no casualties (on our side, of course) as warfare without warfare, the contemporary redefinition of politics as the art of expert administration as politics without politics, up to today’s tolerant liberal multiculturalism as an experience of the other deprived of its otherness – the decaffeinated other who dances fascinating dances and has an ecologically sound holistic approach to reality, while features like wife beating remain out of sight. . . Is this detoxification of the immigrant Other not the main point of Nigel Farage’s Ukip programme? Farage repeatedly emphasises that he is not against the presence of foreign workers in the UK, that he highly appreciates the hard-working Poles and their contribution to the British economy. When he was asked on LBC about why he said that people wouldn't like to have Romanians living in the appartment next to their own, the contrast was immediately drawn with German neighbours – what worried him, he said, were people with criminal records being allowed to enter the UK. This is the stance of the “civilised” anti-immigrant right: the politics of the detoxified neighbour – good Germans versus bad Romanians or Roma. This vision of the detoxification of the Neighbour presents a clear passage from direct barbarism to barbarism with a human face." Edited January 11, 2015 by yolo
Frank Pembleton Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 U Jusufspahić ko Gandi na Prvoj. Jel spomenuo jeftinu radnu snagu?
Weenie Pooh Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 Meni inace pomalo pocinje da smeta to nase ponavljanje da teroristi nisu pravi muslimani. Ko ima pravo da to kaze i sta je uopste mera muslimanske "pravosti" danas u Francuskoj? A to je ono gde je Slavuj letos izbriljirao: Smeta mnogima zato što komplikuje stvari, a svi imamo impuls da se na brzinu razbrojimo, odredimo koji su naši a koji njihovi, pre nego što krenemo u obračun. Lizard brain na delu. "Pravost" određuju njihove verske vođe, koji svojim sledbenicima odavno govore da zajebu te mučeničke fantazije i ne budu instrumentalizovani od strane šljama. Samo što se ta poruka drastično manje prima ako si svaki put prinuđen da je ispratiš sa "... ali znate, nije OK ni što oni vređaju Proroka". Ne mogu da zamislim mnogo očigledniji logički sled: što manje vređaš sve vernike sveta, to im više pomažeš da efikasnije osude terorizam. Ali nee, moja prava, moja sloboda govora...
wall Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 Grupica terorista... Naravno da niko sposoban da otvori nalog na ppp-u i uzme iole aktivno učešće na njemu ne stavlja znak jednakosti između fanatika i celokupne zajednice islamske veroispovesti. Ali ovo mi isto tako ekstremno zabijanje glave u pesak. Svesno.
radisa Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 Smeta mnogima zato što komplikuje stvari, a svi imamo impuls da se na brzinu razbrojimo, odredimo koji su naši a koji njihovi, pre nego što krenemo u obračun. Lizard brain na delu. "Pravost" određuju njihove verske vođe, koji svojim sledbenicima odavno govore da zajebu te mučeničke fantazije i ne budu instrumentalizovani od strane šljama. Samo što se ta poruka drastično manje prima ako si svaki put prinuđen da je ispratiš sa "... ali znate, nije OK ni što oni vređaju Proroka". Pa nije OK što vreađju proroka, i treba da verske vođe objasne da će se već prorok sam pobrinuti da nevernici i vređači završe u paklu, jer je Alah najveći i on će ih sve kazniti. Šta nedostaje tom narativu? Zašto je to teško objasniti to vernicima? Tako i Hrišćanska crkva objašnjava i ništa joj ne nedostaje...
Прслин Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 Prerano si zapevao Prsline, pazi da ne završiš u supi. Ne bavi se ovaj tekst levicom nego liberalnim kapitalizmom. I nije naročito originalan, naprotiv Са различитих страна прилазимо Жижеку. Будући да сматрам да је све што је икада требало да буде речено о левици речено у "Злим дусима", комплетну колективну душевну агонију социјалиста преточену у теорију дожибљавам као губљење времена и могу поглед ка њој да окренем само због стила писања појединаца, били они Жижек или Ким. У таквим моментима бескрајно су ми занимљивији сами људи и богатство њиховог унутрашњег живота него оно што лапрдају о оваквој или онаквој левици. Али, као и свака душевна агонија попут наркоманије или алкохолизма, и комунизам носи ризик да превесла онога ко му се одаје у домен обичног зла. То се да спречити, или бар успорити, а у неретком броју случајева и потпуно обрнути излагањем свему ономе што у себи носи дубљи смисао. Зато ме радује када видим правилне референце на битне ствари, а остатак попут револуционарног одбацивања демократије, отписујем као булажњење оболелог, последицу грознице коју ће или успешно прележати само да би је се са језом сећао под старе дане или самртни ропац душе коју обухвата мрак и хладноћа; у оба случаја на то не могу да утичем осим, евентуално, молитвом али за то сам превише лењ што јако много говори и о мојој тешкој ситуацији.
steins Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 U Jusufspahić i onaj naš vehabija....jebo bi se al da mu ne udje.
yolo Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 U Jusufspahić i onaj naš vehabija....jebo bi se al da mu ne udje. Koji vehabija? Šta buncaš?
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