jezičko čistunstvo, etiketa i društveni status

[Indy]

Veoma lep clanak o jezikom cistunstvu, etiketi i drustvenom statusu.---------------------Phew! At last a case of true classThe other day I was at a party and one of the guests corrected another's grammar. The fellow being corrected had just used the word ''less'' when he should have said ''fewer''. And so this was pointed out: ''I think you mean 'fewer'.''What infuriated me about the guy doing the correcting was his superior tone. All he said was, ''I think you mean fewer'', but his real point was: ''I am better educated than the rest of you. I've been brought up in a more superior way. I really am terribly posh''.Language is full of these little traps - rules that are not there as an aid to understanding, but as signifiers of education; as sticks with which to beat others over the head.''Less'' and ''fewer'' is one example. Even more obvious are the British names that are pronounced in ways wildly different from their spelling. Anyone can dream of attending Magdalen College in Cambridge, as long as you know to pronounce it as ''Maudlyn''. How are you supposed to know? Presumably by growing up around people who went to ''Maudlyn''.I hate this stuff. It's using the English language - this beautiful, flexible, shared gift - as a way of policing social class. Don't get too uppity; in the end you'll fall into one of our traps. You'll be invited to a house party in Berkeley Square and then ruin everything by not pronouncing it as ''Barkli''. You'll be invited to dinner with the Cholmondeleys, without realising that it's pronounced ''Chumley''.The pronunciation police find pleasure everywhere, of course, yet here's where their pleasure is at its most intense: when they get to correct someone who uses a fancy word but gets it wrong. How dare you use a relatively obscure word such as, for example, ''aegis'' then ruin it all by saying ''ay-jis'' rather than ''ee-jis''. How hilarious. We can't allow someone like that to be, well, under our aegis.In fact, to know the meaning but not the pronunciation of a word like ''aegis'' is usually a sign that someone has read a lot, but hasn't been surrounded from birth by people who make use of such words.It's a mark, if you like, of a person in the process of freeing themselves from the limitations of their upbringing and arriving in a world that suits them better - using nothing but brains, time and access to good books. The fancy word mispronounced signifies an inspiring journey that's under way, as opposed to a person who is just sitting still.That's why pronunciation errors are seized with glee by those already in the citadel. The pronunciation police are not ''protecting the language'' as they sometimes claim; they are just pushing a ladder away from the castle wall.It's not only words that are used to deter interlopers in this way; etiquette is the other weapon. You should break up your bread roll with your fingers, rather than cutting into it with a knife. Why? Who knows? It's just a code, designed to make it easier to spot the social origins of those with whom you are sharing a table.When eating soup, it is acceptable to tip the soup bowl away from you in order to retrieve the final spoonfuls. Just don't ever tip it the other way. Why? We can make up some explanation about not wanting to splash our shirt front, but again it's just a code. ''Ah, good, he's one of ours.''Real etiquette, of course, is pretty much the opposite of all this. It's about making people feel more comfortable, not less. It's about holding the ladder up against the wall, and helping someone over, rather than pushing it away.The BBC broadcaster Sandi Toksvig tells a great story about true etiquette in her native Denmark. The photographer (and British aristocrat) Patrick Lichfield had been invited to dinner with Denmark's King Frederick IX. At the time, a gentleman wore a shirt with no collar, on top of which was placed a separate stiff shirt front, with detachable collar and cuffs. Lichfield, short of funds, lacked a fresh shirt, so simply wore the shirt front assembly, all tucked beneath his formal jacket. With the jacket buttoned up, no one could tell the difference.Alas, after dinner, the party shifted to the terrace and the king removed his jacket, causing all the other men to follow the royal lead. Mortified, Lichfield removed his own jacket, revealing both his nakedness and his lack of funds.The king glanced up, said ''what a splendid idea'', and immediately removed his own shirt. Again everyone followed suit, and soon the whole party was happily bare-chested around the royal table.The king's motivation was a desire that his guest not feel socially awkward - an example of true good manners, of which there are less examples every day. Sorry, I think I meant fewer. I hope you weren't about to correct me.

Read more:

http://www.smh.com.a...l#ixzz2pVqCENTi

[Weenie Pooh]

Zar ljudi stvarno mešaju less i fewer? Ne znaju razliku između brojivih i nebrojivih imenica? Meni je to pre indikator nepismenosti nego manjka pripadnosti određenom društvenom staležu. Kao što je nametljivo ispravljanje prosto lična sitničavost i potreba za osećajem lične superiornosti, a ne znak pripadnosti posh klasi.Malo mi isiljeno deluje ta teza o odbrani zamka. Bira jednu iritantnu ljudsku osobinu i onda je blanko pripisuje ljudima određenog staleža, bez ograda, kao da neki commoners koji izbore makar minimum obrazovanja ne ispravljaju druge opsesivno. Ne, nego se ta sitničavost utucava u glavu isključivo Oxbridge ispisnicima...

[Indy]

Ispravljati govor ljudima na party-ju (kao i na forumu) je znak da je neko anal retentive. Da li je to zbog osecaja pripadnosti visoj klasi ili nadmetanja u drustvenom statusu koji nema nuzno veze sa formalnom klasom, ne menja tu cinjenicu.

[MancMellow]

Zar ljudi stvarno mešaju less i fewer? Ne znaju razliku između brojivih i nebrojivih imenica?

Ma idi Weenie, pola sever-severozapada Engleske onda ne zna razliku između množine i jednine :D Kad ih neko ispravli...to ne izgleda lepo...

[Weenie Pooh]

Pa super, ako su nepismeni onda su nepismeni, ne znači da su "in the process of freeing themselves from the limitations of their upbringing and arriving in a world that suits them better - using nothing but brains, time and access to good books".Isto kao što ako ih neki sitničavi govnar javno ispravlja, to znači samo da je sitničavi govnar a ne da misli "I am better educated than the rest of you. I've been brought up in a more superior way. I really am terribly posh".Učitava autor neki class warfare, meni teza zvuči neodrživo iako nemam praktično nikakvog iskustva u ophođenju sa Brits & Ozzies...

[MancMellow]

pa indyjevo iskustvo je puno bogatije od mog, al meni lično se čini da je, ono, kako kad. Mada sam samo slušao o tim ispravljanjima, lično sam jedino prisustvovao da neko ode, pa onda sledi komentar...

Edited January 5, 2014 by MancMellow

[Agni]

Zar ljudi stvarno mešaju less i fewer? Ne znaju razliku između brojivih i nebrojivih imenica? Meni je to pre indikator nepismenosti nego manjka pripadnosti određenom društvenom staležu. Kao što je nametljivo ispravljanje prosto lična sitničavost i potreba za osećajem lične superiornosti, a ne znak pripadnosti posh klasi.Malo mi isiljeno deluje ta teza o odbrani zamka. Bira jednu iritantnu ljudsku osobinu i onda je blanko pripisuje ljudima određenog staleža, bez ograda, kao da neki commoners koji izbore makar minimum obrazovanja ne ispravljaju druge opsesivno. Ne, nego se ta sitničavost utucava u glavu isključivo Oxbridge ispisnicima...

Anegdota koja je posluzila za uvod u tekst moze i ne mora biti primer "odbrane zamka". Sama teza o upotrebi jezika u odbrani klasnog polozaja je daleko od isiljene. O vezi izmedju naglaska i polozaja na drustvenoj lestvici sam ucio na casovima lingvistike (autora se ne secam), a specificno o ulozi jezika u ispoljavanju kasne superiornosti je nasiroko i nadugacko pisao Burdje u "la Distinction" i "Ce que parler veut dire". Zanimljivo je da i kritika sitnicavosti, poput ove iz Indijevog clanka, moze da ima istu funkciju: zadrto insistiranje na gramatickim pravilima je po Burdjeu odlika vise srednje klase, odnosno "male burzoazije" (srpski: malogradjana), koji tako pokusavaju, sto bi rekli Francuzi, da "prde vislje od dupeta", dok su pravi burzuji dovoljno obrazovani i samouvereni da mogu sebi da dopuste da se zezaju sa jezikom, pa tako i sa onima koji ga shvataju preozbiljno. Edited January 5, 2014 by Radagast

[DarkAttraktor]

Veoma lep clanak o jezikom cistunstvu, etiketi i drustvenom statusu.---------------------Phew! At last a case of true classThe other day I was at a party and one of the guests corrected another's grammar. The fellow being corrected had just used the word ''less'' when he should have said ''fewer''. And so this was pointed out: ''I think you mean 'fewer'.''What infuriated me about the guy doing the correcting was his superior tone. All he said was, ''I think you mean fewer'', but his real point was: ''I am better educated than the rest of you. I've been brought up in a more superior way. I really am terribly posh''.Language is full of these little traps - rules that are not there as an aid to understanding, but as signifiers of education; as sticks with which to beat others over the head.''Less'' and ''fewer'' is one example. Even more obvious are the British names that are pronounced in ways wildly different from their spelling. Anyone can dream of attending Magdalen College in Cambridge, as long as you know to pronounce it as ''Maudlyn''. How are you supposed to know? Presumably by growing up around people who went to ''Maudlyn''.I hate this stuff. It's using the English language - this beautiful, flexible, shared gift - as a way of policing social class. Don't get too uppity; in the end you'll fall into one of our traps. You'll be invited to a house party in Berkeley Square and then ruin everything by not pronouncing it as ''Barkli''. You'll be invited to dinner with the Cholmondeleys, without realising that it's pronounced ''Chumley''.The pronunciation police find pleasure everywhere, of course, yet here's where their pleasure is at its most intense: when they get to correct someone who uses a fancy word but gets it wrong. How dare you use a relatively obscure word such as, for example, ''aegis'' then ruin it all by saying ''ay-jis'' rather than ''ee-jis''. How hilarious. We can't allow someone like that to be, well, under our aegis.In fact, to know the meaning but not the pronunciation of a word like ''aegis'' is usually a sign that someone has read a lot, but hasn't been surrounded from birth by people who make use of such words.It's a mark, if you like, of a person in the process of freeing themselves from the limitations of their upbringing and arriving in a world that suits them better - using nothing but brains, time and access to good books. The fancy word mispronounced signifies an inspiring journey that's under way, as opposed to a person who is just sitting still.That's why pronunciation errors are seized with glee by those already in the citadel. The pronunciation police are not ''protecting the language'' as they sometimes claim; they are just pushing a ladder away from the castle wall.It's not only words that are used to deter interlopers in this way; etiquette is the other weapon. You should break up your bread roll with your fingers, rather than cutting into it with a knife. Why? Who knows? It's just a code, designed to make it easier to spot the social origins of those with whom you are sharing a table.When eating soup, it is acceptable to tip the soup bowl away from you in order to retrieve the final spoonfuls. Just don't ever tip it the other way. Why? We can make up some explanation about not wanting to splash our shirt front, but again it's just a code. ''Ah, good, he's one of ours.''Real etiquette, of course, is pretty much the opposite of all this. It's about making people feel more comfortable, not less. It's about holding the ladder up against the wall, and helping someone over, rather than pushing it away.The BBC broadcaster Sandi Toksvig tells a great story about true etiquette in her native Denmark. The photographer (and British aristocrat) Patrick Lichfield had been invited to dinner with Denmark's King Frederick IX. At the time, a gentleman wore a shirt with no collar, on top of which was placed a separate stiff shirt front, with detachable collar and cuffs. Lichfield, short of funds, lacked a fresh shirt, so simply wore the shirt front assembly, all tucked beneath his formal jacket. With the jacket buttoned up, no one could tell the difference.Alas, after dinner, the party shifted to the terrace and the king removed his jacket, causing all the other men to follow the royal lead. Mortified, Lichfield removed his own jacket, revealing both his nakedness and his lack of funds.The king glanced up, said ''what a splendid idea'', and immediately removed his own shirt. Again everyone followed suit, and soon the whole party was happily bare-chested around the royal table.The king's motivation was a desire that his guest not feel socially awkward - an example of true good manners, of which there are less examples every day. Sorry, I think I meant fewer. I hope you weren't about to correct me.

Read more:

http://www.smh.com.a...l#ixzz2pVqCENTi

fantastican tekst.nego, u zivotu nisam video nekog kako naginje ciniju supe od sebe umesto ka sebi when finishing up. toliko o mom okruzenju

[расејан]

То класно пробирање по језику сам јако ретко видео на форуму (оном стручном, где висим од '97.), а уживо ниједном. На другим форумима, где публика није пробрана по струци, има тога.А то за супу, то је енглески штос и звучи ми пођеднако неуверљиво као и оно да се грашак захвата искључиво спољном страном виљушке. Са амерске стране, супа се ионако служи у некаквим ћасама или чак шољама. Видео сам овде гостујућег Амера како уопште не уме да једе супу... захватање последње четири кашике је за њега била вештина равна вожњи унициклом. И то, пази, тип из отменије куће, дипломирао на Бршљанском савезу.

[djili]

Zar ljudi stvarno mešaju less i fewer? Ne znaju razliku između brojivih i nebrojivih imenica? Meni je to pre indikator nepismenosti nego manjka pripadnosti određenom društvenom staležu.

i less i fewer ce ti omoguciti da shvatis smisao recenog, ako je glavna svrha jezika komunikacija.uzgred, da li ti ikad pravis greske kad govoris srpski? neko kome je engleski maternji jezik nece razmisljati o pravilima kao brojive i nebrojive imenice, samo ce govoriti kako je navikao i naucio od okoline. Edited January 6, 2014 by djili

[Weenie Pooh]

Siguran sam da pravim, svaki jezik ima svoje začkoljice gde ljudi brljaju i obično tolerišu brljanje, što kod sebe što kod drugih, ali... kad mešaš less/fewer ili much/many, to meni ne zvuči kao sitnica koja može da prođe jer je čovek "tako navikao". (Za razliku od drugih primera navedenih u tekstu.)Naravno da nije ni za javno izlaganje ruglu, daleko od toga, ali ipak. Ne može da se brani takva nepismenost kao "oslobađanje od stega koje su im vaspitanje i životna sredina nametnuli". Ne znam za tebe, ali ja kad čujem da neko ne zna padeže, ne pomislim "Kakva hrabra osoba na inspirativnom putovanju samounapređenja! Svi koji traže bolje od njega su nadmene budale!"

[расејан]

uzgred, da li ti ikad pravis greske kad govoris srpski? neko kome je engleski maternji jezik nece razmisljati o pravilima kao brojive i nebrojive imenice, samo ce govoriti kako je navikao i naucio od okoline.

узгред, да ли ти икад правис греске кад говорис српски? неко коме је енглески матерњи језик неце размисљати о правилима као бројиве и небројиве именице, само це говорити како је навикао и науцио од околине.(испуцао бонус за овај месец, и то на одговарајућој теми... али никад ми неће бити јасно како особе које не умеју да користе сва слова имају петљу да пишу на Језику)

[Weenie Pooh]

Posh cunt -_-

[DarkAttraktor]

Siguran sam da pravim, svaki jezik ima svoje začkoljice gde ljudi brljaju i obično tolerišu brljanje, što kod sebe što kod drugih, ali... kad mešaš less/fewer ili much/many, to meni ne zvuči kao sitnica koja može da prođe jer je čovek "tako navikao". (Za razliku od drugih primera navedenih u tekstu.)Naravno da nije ni za javno izlaganje ruglu, daleko od toga, ali ipak. Ne može da se brani takva nepismenost kao "oslobađanje od stega koje su im vaspitanje i životna sredina nametnuli". Ne znam za tebe, ali ja kad čujem da neko ne zna padeže, ne pomislim "Kakva hrabra osoba na inspirativnom putovanju samounapređenja! Svi koji traže bolje od njega su nadmene budale!"

pa vidis da si prirodno inkliniran da razmisljas u normativizirajucim terminima kad naidjes na razlicitost kao i da svesno-nesvesno osecas potrebu da smestis svog sagovornika u nekakve bracketse (bili oni inherentno vise ili nizi, svjedno), te u nekakav hijerarhijski koordinatni sistem. zasto bi uopste mislio o bilo kakvoj boljosti ili losijosti suocen sa takvim sagovornikom ?

[Weenie Pooh]

Zato što je neizbežno? Kao primati, prirodno smo skloni patkometriji - vidimo drugu osobu i instinktivno biramo kako bi trebalo da se postavimo, ko će kome da zajaše na grbači. Kao civilizovani ljudi, skloni smo da te svoje primitivne impulse internalizujemo - većina nas ne ide okolo upirući prstom i vičući "Ja sam pametniji, pismeniji, obrazovaniji, bogatiji, i/ili seksualno sposobniji od tebe! I od tebe, i od tebe..."Dakle, ne smeta mi da se neko oseti superiornim u odnosu na nekog drugog (osim ako je nesigurna budala pa to konstantno pokušava sebi i drugima da dokaže). Zasmetala mi je u originalnom tekstu inverzija tog principa, nepametno isforsirani egalitarizam po kom bi elementarna nepismenost osobe A i elementarna pismenost osobe B trebalo da budu na ravnoj nozi, da se uzajamno poštuju i tolerišu, jer su i jedna i druga navodno produkt (ne)upadanja sekire u med, jedna osoba se, eto, rodila u bogatoj porodici a druga, avaj, nije.