Sirija

[Anonymous]

Egipat je ekstra ispao, nema vise nestabilnosti i izbora koji nikuda ne vode. malo su se koprcali, ali na kraju pobedio razum.

Nadam se da je ovo neka duhovitost, čiji mi smisao izmiče.

[Agni]

Nadam se da je ovo neka duhovitost, čiji mi smisao izmiče.

Jeste, sarkazam.

[Budja]

A kada smo se na topiku već dohvatili moralne potrebe da se kazni upotreba hemijskog oružja, ne mogu a da ne primetim kako su ove iste SAD, samo sedam dana pre nego što je Asad prešao crvenu liniju u Damasku, otvoreno podržale Sisija i njegove kasape koji su najstrašnije izmasakrirali više od hiljadu civila u Kairu. Doduše ne hemijom nego rasprskavajućom municijom velikog kalibra, što izgleda čini nekakvu suštinsku moralnu razliku. I posle se čude zašto pola saveznika neće sa njima na Siriju a druga polovina pada u svojim parlamentima kada ih upita za dozvolu.

Ko je gledao biratnski parlament video je da se Egipat vrlo cesto posezao kao argument duplih standarda.

[Budja]

manje-vise, to je to. It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.verovatno bi. ali takvo sto se nece desiti, pa baratamo onime sto imamo.

Ja ipak mislim da bi gradjani sveta sa velikim "G" ipak mogli stvari da postave i malo normativno a ne samo pozitivno. Poznat je moj stav da mi se riga od real-politike a jos vise od real-politike umotane u moralne oblande jer su mogucnosti za manipulaciju daleko vece.Pri tome, gledati u parcijalna resenja bez sveobuhvatnog vidika je bezveze.Da, u Libiji postoji sansa za neki demokratski razvitak ali bi ta sansa bila daleko veca da je politika u regionu konzistentna.Drugim recima, neuslovna podrska SAD Izraelu i SA smanjuje mogucnost demokratije u Egiptu, Siriji, Iranu, Iraku i sl...

[Gandalf]

Da, u Libiji postoji sansa za neki demokratski razvitak ali bi ta sansa bila daleko veca da je politika u regionu konzistentna.Drugim recima, neuslovna podrska SAD Izraelu i SA smanjuje mogucnost demokratije u Egiptu, Siriji, Iranu, Iraku i sl...

Potpisujem. Prekidanje okupacije i davljenja Palestinaca + jak pritisak na Saudi, bi ucinili vise za demokratizaciju u regionu nego bilo sta drugo. Ali, nemoguce je da ce bilo koja US administracija uciniti bilo sta slicno.

[Anduril]

Potpisujem. Prekidanje okupacije i davljenja Palestinaca + jak pritisak na Saudi, bi ucinili vise za demokratizaciju u regionu nego bilo sta drugo.Ali, nemoguce je da ce bilo koja US administracija uciniti bilo sta slicno.

Nije nemoguce. Cinjenica je jednostavo da do velikih (ideoloskih) reset-ova dolazi tek tokom ili posle znacajnih globalnih politickih pretumbacija. U slucaju SAD do toga ce doci tek kad recimo pocne era nuklearnih teroristickih napada ili kad se imperija raspadne usled ociglednog finansijskog i materijalnog overstrecinga. Dakle, na kraju obicno finansije ili technologija rezultiraju velikim, globalnim promenama.

[Prospero]

čini si da se britanski parlamentarci spremaju na 1 saborni stav, pošto su u prvoj turi glasali kako ne treba:

Pressure on Cameron for new vote on Syria strikes David Cameron is under increasing pressure to return to Parliament for another vote on British military action against Syria after the Americans postponed missile strikes for at least a week.Last week the Prime Minister cut short his holiday and returned to Downing Street because of the situation in Syria. This week he willbe under increasing pressure to return to Parliament for another vote on British military action. Photo: REUTERSBy Robert Winnett and Peter Dominiczak10:00PM BST 01 Sep 2013Lord Howard, a former Conservative leader, Sir Malcolm Rifkind, a former Foreign Secretary, and Lord Ashdown, a former Liberal Democrat leader, led calls to vote again on Sunday.Sir Malcolm, the chairman of the intelligence and security committee, said the situation has “moved on dramatically now” and that the evidence is “becoming more compelling every day”.In his Daily Telegraph column on Monday, Boris Johnson, the London mayor, also suggests another motion could be put “inviting British participation”. Mr Johnson, who has been highly sceptical of intervening in Syria, believes that Parliament has helped the international community by allowing a delay in the action for further evidence to be collected.Signs of Labour disagreements over Ed Miliband’s response to the Syrian crisis were also beginning to emerge on Sunday.Jim Murphy, the shadow defence secretary, became the first senior Labour figure to admit that the case against the Assad regime over last month’s chemical weapons attack was not in doubt.Ben Bradshaw, a former Labour Cabinet minister, suggested he would now support a second Parliamentary vote being called.George Osborne and William Hague, Mr Cameron’s two most senior Cabinet colleagues, on Sunday appeared to rule out a second vote on Syrian action.However, Mr Hague, the Foreign Secretary, laid out a series of conditions which would have to be met before action could be reconsidered – primarily involving Mr Miliband offering to cooperate. He also warned that if Bashar al-Assad is not confronted now it would lead ultimately to a “confrontation [which] will only be bigger and more painful.”Since last Thursday, when MPs rejected government backing for potential military action against Syria by just 13 votes, the US administration has released detailed intelligence on Assad’s alleged involvement in a chemical weapons attack on a suburb of Damascus. A report from UN weapons inspectors is also imminent and on Sunday a new intelligence report from France suggested that Assad had amassed 1,000 tons of chemical weapons.On Sunday, John Kerry, the US Secretary of State, said his government had now concluded that sarin gas was used in the attack, which killed 1,429 people including 426 children. The Americans set out detailed intelligence on the attack, including information about where the missiles had been fired from, telephone intercepts and other “evidence”. This compares with an overall conclusion from British intelligence last week that the Syrian leader was “highly likely” to have been responsible.Assad said he would “confront any external aggression”.The US government had been expected to launch cruise missile strikes over the weekend but President Obama said on Saturday that he would now be seeking the support of the US Congress, in a vote which will not happen before next week.The revised US timetable and the emerging intelligence has led to calls from some of Britain’s most senior politicians for Parliament to be given another vote.Many observers believe that Mr Cameron unnecessarily rushed last week’s vote without properly detailing the case for action. Dozens of MPs were away on holiday and unable to vote. A Labour “road map” plan for action was also defeated.On Sunday, Lord Howard said: “I think Parliament, or at least the Opposition in Parliament, last week got itself into something of a muddle.” He said he hoped the US President’s speech “will give Parliament an opportunity to think again and to come to a different conclusion”. Sir Malcolm Rifkind also backed such a prospect. “A lot of MPs, including Mr Miliband and his colleagues who voted against last Thursday, did so because they said it was premature,” he said.“And he and our Prime Minister ought to get together and say, if we can now agree the evidence is compelling then Parliament ought to have the opportunity to debate the matter again.”Lord Ashdown told the BBC that parliament could “reconsider its position”.Mr Osborne said he did not believe that more evidence or the conclusion of the UN work in Syria would win over MPs. “Parliament has spoken,” he told the BBC’s Andrew Marr programme. Mr Hague also said he could not envisage the circumstances of Parliament overturning its objections.But he added: “I think anybody looking at this objectively would see that in order for Parliament in any circumstances to come to a different conclusion then people would have to be more persuaded by the evidence …“And the Labour leadership would have to play a less partisan and less opportunistic role and be prepared to take 'yes’ for an answer in terms of the motion that we present to the House of Commons.”Colonel Bob Stewart, a Conservative MP and former UN Commander in Bosnia, said on Sunday night: “I don’t see how we [Parliament] can’t discuss it again.”

ali ovo "detailed intelligence" je vrhunski spin. kerry se bavio deskripcijom, "mi znamo da je... ovo ono", nikakav dokaz nije ponudio na uvid javnosti sem svog prepričavanja, ali medijska mašina većinom polako ali sigurno guta mamac, olovo i plovak.a vidim i da spremaju vučenje po blatu za milibanda, udaraju ga sa strane, naći će dovoljno laburista da glasaju "za" a onda će mu se osvetiti (delom) time što će ga naterati da bude extra pokajnički kooperativan. uostalom, kameron mu je već rekao da je "izdao ameriku", grđe nema. <_<

[Gandalf]

A sto se ne bi desilo? Mislis da biraci, mediji, partije, politicari ili njihovi savetnici ne mogu da budu delimicno i pod nekim ideoloskim ili ne daj boze idealistickim uticajem?

Mozda u unutrasnjoj politici, ne u spoljasnjoj.npr:Podrska egipatskoj vojsci u sustini predstavlja masno subvencionisanje US vojne industrije. Vlada u Bahreinu je pouzdan i odan americki saveznik, dok bi opozicija mozda postala iranski.U oba slucaja, Amerima dobro i nema mnogo onih kojima ovakvo stanje stvari predstavlja problem.

[bergasa19]

čini si da se britanski parlamentarci spremaju na 1 saborni stav, pošto su u prvoj turi glasali kako ne treba:ali ovo "detailed intelligence" je vrhunski spin. kerry se bavio deskripcijom, "mi znamo da je... ovo ono", nikakav dokaz nije ponudio na uvid javnosti sem svog prepričavanja, ali medijska mašina većinom polako ali sigurno guta mamac, olovo i plovak.a vidim i da spremaju vučenje po blatu za milibanda, udaraju ga sa strane, naći će dovoljno laburista da glasaju "za" a onda će mu se osvetiti (delom) time što će ga naterati da bude extra pokajnički kooperativan. uostalom, kameron mu je već rekao da je "izdao ameriku", grđe nema. <_<

Ne bi rekao da medijska masinerija guta plovak jer je medijskoj masineriji rat vrlo, vrlo, isplativa stvar.

[dillinger]

Kad se već pominje Egipat da priupitam upućenije (Bane?) šta je trenutno sa Muslimanskim bratstvom u Siriji? U početku su bili bitan faktor u FSA, sad im se već gubi svaki trag. Pored toga što ih Saudijci ne vole, da li i godine čine svoje, tj. da li su mlađi Sirijci već zaboravili Hamu?Oni bi došli kao poručeni u ovom momentu ili nekom postratnom, ako ništa ova događanja u Egiptu i Siriji pokazuju da se ne radi o militantima kao što se verovalo

[Anduril]

Mozda u unutrasnjoj politici, ne u spoljasnjoj.npr:Podrska egipatskoj vojsci u sustini predstavlja masno subvencionisanje US vojne industrije. Vlada u Bahreinu je pouzdan i odan americki saveznik, dok bi opozicija mozda postala iranski.U oba slucaja, Amerima dobro i nema mnogo onih kojima ovakvo stanje stvari predstavlja problem.

Ako dodje do nekakvog unutrasnjeg americkog finansijskog raspada nikakvog masnog subvencionisanja vojne industrije jednostavno nece biti jer ce recimo dolar imati 30% sadasnje vrednosti pa ce u istoj meri opasti i efekat subvencionisanja. Dakle, velike unutrasnje pretumbacije jesu povezane i sa spoljnim i obratno. Sve zavisi od balansa unutrasnjih interesa i moci - trenutno je taj balans znamo gde ali isto tako znamo da je takav disbalans na duzi period prilicno nestabilan. Drugi primer ti je promena americke spoljnje politike u skladu sa promenom strukture americke ekonomije, tj. prelaza sa poljoprivrede i proizvodjaca sirovina na industriju.

[Prospero]

Ne bi rekao da medijska masinerija guta plovak jer je medijskoj masineriji rat vrlo, vrlo, isplativa stvar.

prošle nedelje si mogao da vidiš zapitkivanja, sumnje, "kako", "zašto", a već je tokom vikenda vidljiva transformacija. svuda su brojke koje je keri izneo (1400 mrtvih, 400 dece), to je sada istina, izneti su dokazi i ko sada u kongresu sme da kaže nešto protiv?meni se čini da je sistem prvo reagovao zbunjeno, nesnalažljivo, pomalo skeptično, a sada već prihvata ono što establišment govori, bez pitanja.

[bergasa19]

Pa prihvata jer im ide u prilog.

[Prospero]

nemamo spor, samo primećujem da ovde elita vuče medije u rat daleko više nego obratno.

[Bane5]

Kad se već pominje Egipat da priupitam upućenije (Bane?) šta je trenutno sa Muslimanskim bratstvom u Siriji? U početku su bili bitan faktor u FSA, sad im se već gubi svaki trag. Pored toga što ih Saudijci ne vole, da li i godine čine svoje, tj. da li su mlađi Sirijci već zaboravili Hamu?Oni bi došli kao poručeni u ovom momentu ili nekom postratnom, ako ništa ova događanja u Egiptu i Siriji pokazuju da se ne radi o militantima kao što se verovalo

politicka slika nije ni piblizno jasna u ovom trenutku kada su pobunjenici u pitanju. delom zbog toga sto je rat u jeku, delom zbog njihove nekoherentnosti.ako posmatramo samo snc onda je mb tu vrlo jak, ali je u poslednjoj preraspodeli mesta unutar snc-a, fsa uzela 'kontrolni' paket mesta tako da mislim niko u ovom trenutku nema dominaciju pri odlucivanju.lobiranje i guranje svojih kandidata postoji.treba napomenuti da najradikalnije grupacije nemaju nikakav odnos prema snc-u (ne priznaju ih i zapravo su proivnici). Edited September 1, 2013 by Bane5