Sirija

[dillinger]

Zlo^tm to radi onako, zato sto mu se moze ili ima neki razlog, cilj, zadnju nameru?

 

Au, ovo je vec teska propagandna artiljerija, samo su jos falili Luftwaffe i Gernika.

 

Inače nije prvi put put da se vuku paralele sa Španskim građanskim ratom, tamo negde do 2014. bilo je to vrlo popularno pre no što je postalo očigledno da veliki ipak neće zaratiti zbog Sirije.

 

Naravno, linija Asad - Hamnej - Putin je Franko - Musolini - Hitler, dok su Čečeni & co. Internacionalne brigade a Saudi Sovjeti

[namenski]

Ma lako bismo za paralele, eno ga objektivni Hufington, a i inace objektivnosti koliko 'oces: problem je sto cim nesto ne ide kako treba za podobne^tm odmah krene moralisanje i masovno bombardovanje bas bolnica i bas onih koje su na brizi MSF recimo...

Da nesto padne Damask i krenu pokolji takozvanih asadovaca  okoline (ovo samo hipoteticki, jer je poznato da je druga strana humana i ne bavi se takvim stvarima), a Asad zavrsi sa cepanicom u bulji, bez sudjenja ili sa sudjenjem a la Sadam, bilo bi odmah ono 'rat je, jebiga, diktator jebiga, pobunjeni narod jebiga...' 

[Bane5]

Vidi kako: mozes ti koliko god hoces da se zaklanjas iza sopstvene sucuti i razumevanja za zrtve i mozes koliko god hoces da meni - sto je inace izuzetno nisko - pripisujes odsustvo moralnih nacela i to elementarnih, ali ja sam te vec vise puta opomenuo da se manes izraza kao svidja mi se ili mi se ne svidja.

Tebi, meni ili bilo kome.

Upleo si se u raspravu i sto je jos gore pokusaje tumacenja dogadjanja u 1 gradjanskom ratu, dakle najzajebanijoj sorti ljudskih sukoba i kad ti se skrene paznja na neke elementarne protivurecnosti ne znas nista bolje nego da se uteknes (dis)kvalifikacijama.

Dakle, zajebi: ne daj boze sirijskim pobunjenicima zagovaranje poput tvog i ne daj boze ne samo Siriji, nego bilo kome da joj MSF pomaze.

Vec vidjeno, rekoh ti.

 

Bravo care, sve sto sam ti napisao ovim si potvrdio - zavera iznad svega jer "ti to znas" i "tebi smrducka" samo zato sto je to tamo neki gradjanski rat i nedaj Boze da nekome MSF daje pomoc. Samo u ovim delovima je jasno koliko nisi upucen u to sta se sve u Siriji desava. Ovo nije prvi put da skaces na i malu trunku sumnje u neki tok dogadjaja u Siriji. Zaboga, zavera i smrduckanje ti bas uvek ne daju mira.

Cudno je da ti mira nije dalo to sto je u tom napadu poginulo 50 ljudi. Za to te nije bilo briga i bas zato i sa punim pravom sam ti napisao ono sto sam napisao.

Na kraju, o kakvim ti 'protivurecnostima' pises ovde? Kakve 'raspreve i tumacenja'? Sa kojim pravom? Prosli put kad si uleteo u odbranu Asada i rusa i meni spocitavao kojesta (najpre pristrastnost) zamolio sam te najkulturnije da stvari koje si mi pripisao potrazis u bilo kojem mom postu. Mrzelo te ili ti je bilo svejedno.

Nije da ti nisam pruzio priliku.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Bane5

[Anduril]

Ove slike Damaska a zatim razrusenih bolnica po Alepu pogadjaju sustinu.

Strane u sukobu je mozda tesko razlikovati po prljavosti kao u skoro svakom gradjanskom ratu, ali zato ovde uglavnom samo jedna strana tuce teskom artiljerijom i avijacijom po civilima.

To je sustinska razlika a mene ne cudi da redovno promakne. Promakla je i u Srbiji tokom devedesetih dok je postojala premoc u teskom naoruzanju.

Kukanje je tek pocelo sa bombardovanjem a do tada rokaj, koga briga, svi su isti, rat je jbg. Takav specificni civilizacijski sentiment se ocigledno i zadrzao.

[Bane5]

Tekst iz Guardiana koji na malo blizi nacin pojasnjava situaciju oko napada na bolnice i sl. u Siriji:

 

MSF stops sharing Syria hospital locations after 'deliberate' attacks

 

 

Médecins Sans Frontières believes giving GPS coordinates of its facilities to Assad and Russian forces increases chance of direct targeting

 

Hospitals in opposition-held parts of Syria are refusing to share GPS coordinates with Russian and Syrian authorities because of repeated attacks on medical facilities and workers, Médecins Sans Frontières and humanitarian workers on the ground have said.

International charity MSF said it took the decision not to formally inform Syria’s government or its Russian allies about the location of some medical facilities, such as the one hit by a deadly airstrike this week, amid concerns that doing so could make them targets.

Joanne Liu, MSF International president, told reporters in Geneva that deliberate attacks on civilian infrastructures were routine. “Healthcare in Syria is in the crosshair of bombs and missiles. It has collapsed,” Liu said. “Let me be clear: attacks on civilians and hospitals must stop. The normalisation of such attacks is intolerable.”

Humanitarian officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, told the Guardian that the Syrian government has explicitly threatened to bomb a hospital in a besieged suburb of Damascus if it continues to admit emergency cases, and said doctors and families were targeted by the regime.

“Since 2011 during the demonstration time, medical activities that are not under their control are considered by the government of Syria as illegal and consequently as legitimate targets,” one official said. “This decision explains the repeated threat, arrest, torture and killing of doctors … and their direct families in addition to the systematic targeting of networks in charge of supplying underground medical activities in besieged zones.”

“Given the number of hospitals that have been bombed since the war started, they do not think [giving GPS coordinates] is going to protect them, rather the opposite,” another official said.

Earlier this week, airstrikes hit an MSF-supported hospital in northern Syria, killing 11 people. Another hospital in the rebel-held town of Azaz was destroyed by what Turkey said was a ballistic missile fired by Russia.

The MSF-supported hospital was located in Idlib, a province entirely outside of government control and where only the Russian and Syrian air forces are carrying out raids.

Fourteen attacks against hospitals have already taken place since the beginning of this year, contradicting claims by Dmitry Medvedev, the Russian prime minister, that Russian forces are not targeting civilians or civilian infrastructure as part of its campaign to support the Assad government.

This week’s violence came just days after major powers reached a deal in Munich for a “cessation of hostilities” that is supposed to come into effect on Thursday night, but now appears as distant as ever.

“Over the past 15 days there has been a focus on northern Aleppo and almost all the hospitals in the area are out of service because they have been directly targeted,” said Mustafa Ajjaj, who runs a hospital in the town of Kafr Hamra in the area.

Aleppo has been the target of a major Russian-backed offensive aimed at severing rebel supply lines, and has sent tens of thousands of civilians fleeing to the Turkish border.

“They are directly targeting civilians and are completely focused on hospitals,” Ajjaj said. “In the beginning we thought it was simply indiscriminate, but there is repeated targeting of hospitals.”

“There is great danger in giving the [GPS] locations because the targeting of the hospitals is definite and clear and systematic,” he added.

Ajjaj said Aleppo now lacks a hospital capable of conducting surgical procedures as a consequence of government and Russian airstrikes. Those hospitals that haven’t been completely destroyed are only able to offer first aid before sending the wounded to the Turkish border, he added.

Humanitarian officials said a hospital in Moadamiyah, a suburb of Damascus under siege by the Assad regime, was told it would be targeted if it continued to accept emergency cases. The hospital replied saying it was a neutral party.

Zaidoun al-Zoubi, who heads the Union of Syrian Medical Relief Organisations, an outfit that runs 11 primary healthcare centres in Syria and the biggest hospital in the country’s north, said the government sees hospitals operating without its permission as legitimate targets. He estimated that around 150 medical facilities were hit in total last year.

“They are targeting hospitals specifically,” he said. “You give them GPS coordinates when you are worried about collateral damage. This is systematic.”

“I am ready to give them but I need guarantees that after providing these I will not be bombed,” he added.

As early as 2013, the UN independent commission of inquiry investigating alleged war crimes in Syria said attacks on medical facilities were being used systematically as a weapon of war by the Assad regime.

The attacks have continued unabated in recent months.

MSF said on Thursday that a total of 94 airstrikes and shelling attacks hit facilities supported by the organisation in 2015 alone, in 12 cases leading to the total destruction of the facility. Some hospitals also suffered from “double tap” attacks, where a second airstrike targets paramedics and EMTs who arrive at the scene to rescue the wounded, between 20-60 minutes after the first bombing.

“The medical facilities supported by MSF are particularly vulnerable as a result of a decision by the Syrian government in 2012 to declare as illegal any clinic providing medical care to victims of violence in opposition-controlled areas,” the organisation said in its report. “Consequently, the majority of the MSF-supported clinics have been forced to operate clandestinely in unmarked and undeclared locations.”

In February last year, the NGO Physicians for Human Rights said it had documented 224 attacks on 175 health facilities since the start of the conflict, and 599 medical personnel had been killed. Many humanitarian workers have been detained.

The attacks continued after the Russian intervention – the organisation documented at least 10 attacks by Russian aircraft on medical facilities in October alone, the first month of Russia’s aerial campaign.

The assault on healthcare goes beyond explicit attacks on medical facilities. A report last year by the Syrian-American Medical Society (Sams) interviewed 27 physicians and medical workers in Syria, including several who had been arrested, arbitrarily detained and tortured for treating members of the opposition.

Ajjaj, the doctor in Aleppo, said doctors from regime-held areas who are moved to assist civilians in rebel-controlled territory do so anonymously for fear of reprisals against them and their families.

Zaher Sahloul, the former president of Sams, said: “In general doctors and nurses caught by the security forces in government controlled areas treating the injured from the other side are detained, tortured, killed, threatened or forced to flee. That is why 75% of all doctors in Syria left the country.”

“On the other hand, doctors and nurses in non-government controlled areas are bombed … by the regime barrel bombs and now by Russian jets.”

 

Edited May 1, 2016 by Bane5

[Prospero]

Aleppo Is Our Guernica — And Some Are Cheering on the Luftwaffe

 

Teško je uhvatiti šta ovde znači "mi".

 

Ne verujem da humanistički argument radi tako crno-belo, i što je još važnije, da je humanistički argument dovoljan da Zapad™ doživljava to kao nesporno svoju borbu.

 

Istorijski, ni Španski građanski rat pa u najvećoj meri ni 2SR nisu bili ratovi bliskoistočnih društava i naroda, iako su naravno trpeli neke od akcija i posledica.

 

Da li može ratna dinamika na BI da se razmaše prema Zapadu™ a da to nije u obliku terorizma (izbeglice na stranu)? Teško. Nema čak ni neke specifične ideološke sadržine koja je na delu kao što je bila proksi logika u Španiji pogurana njome.

 

U tom smislu to je možda Gernika za BI, za Arape, za islamski svet (hajd da ga tako nazovem) ali za Zapad™ baš i ne.

[Budja]

Ne razumem raspravu autoru je profesor "digital journalism", dakle ideja je u samom statru ta da se stvori utisak, da se content ukalupi u neki dobro poznati simbolicki okvir radi lakse prodaje.

[namenski]

Bravo care, sve sto sam ti napisao ovim si potvrdio - zavera iznad svega jer "ti to znas" i "tebi smrducka" samo zato sto je to tamo neki gradjanski rat i nedaj Boze da nekome MSF daje pomoc. Samo u ovim delovima je jasno koliko nisi upucen u to sta se sve u Siriji desava. Ovo nije prvi put da skaces na i malu trunku sumnje u neki tok dogadjaja u Siriji. Zaboga, zavera i smrduckanje ti bas uvek ne daju mira.

Cudno je da ti mira nije dalo to sto je u tom napadu poginulo 50 ljudi. Za to te nije bilo briga i bas zato i sa punim pravom sam ti napisao ono sto sam napisao.

Na kraju, o kakvim ti 'protivurecnostima' pises ovde? Kakve 'raspreve i tumacenja'? Sa kojim pravom? Prosli put kad si uleteo u odbranu Asada i rusa i meni spocitavao kojesta (najpre pristrastnost) zamolio sam te najkulturnije da stvari koje si mi pripisao potrazis u bilo kojem mom postu. Mrzelo te ili ti je bilo svejedno.

Nije da ti nisam pruzio priliku.

Slusaj humanisto^tm: nikad  od kako me je na forumu nisam nekom postavio dijagnozu^tm, ali se bojim da s tvojom gluposcu i njanjavljenjem vise nemam strpljenja.

Samo na ovom topiku sam vise puta od tebe, obaska i utemeljenije, dao na znanje da se ne slazem sa ruskom intervencijom u Siriji i - opet za razliku od tebe - to argumentovao, ispravno ili ne, svejedno.

I veceras sam te prosto i jednostavno pitao: bez obzira na tvoje simpatije i antipatije prema stranama u sukobu, bez obzira na opravdanost ili neopravdanost ruske intervencije, smatras li da su Rusi toliki idioti da na sebe, nepotrebno, osim ako ne znas nesto sto mi ne znamo, navuku odijum svega i svacega bombardujuci bas bolnice i bas one koje su pod pokroviteljstvom MSF.

Meni to malo - ako bas hoces - nema smisla, osim kao pokusaj da se rusko-sirijskoj strani pripise da je apsolutno zla, ruzna i prljava, sto vec ima smisla samo sto to ne moze bas tako lako da prodje ne samo kod mene nego i u sve vecem delu sveta koji se nagledao slicnih propagandnih manipulacija u kojima ni vrli MSF nije bio bez putera na glavi.

Umesto da pokusas da das bilo kakav kakav odgovor, poceo si da - kmecis.

Nastavi i dalje, eno ti Andurila pa se drzite za ruke i navijajte do mile volje sa sve humanizmom i renesansom, povlacenjem paralela izmedju idile na ulicama Damaska i haosa na ulicama gradova koje zli Rusi satiru u prah i pepeo.

A prilike za bilo sta mozes da pruzas bilo kome.

Ali u svoja 4 zida.

Ovde i meni - jok.

[Bane5]

Slusaj humanisto^tm: nikad  od kako me je na forumu nisam nekom postavio dijagnozu^tm, ali se bojim da s tvojom gluposcu i njanjavljenjem vise nemam strpljenja.

Samo na ovom topiku sam vise puta od tebe, obaska i utemeljenije, dao na znanje da se ne slazem sa ruskom intervencijom u Siriji i - opet za razliku od tebe - to argumentovao, ispravno ili ne, svejedno.

I veceras sam te prosto i jednostavno pitao: bez obzira na tvoje simpatije i antipatije prema stranama u sukobu, bez obzira na opravdanost ili neopravdanost ruske intervencije, smatras li da su Rusi toliki idioti da na sebe, nepotrebno, osim ako ne znas nesto sto mi ne znamo, navuku odijum svega i svacega bombardujuci bas bolnice i bas one koje su pod pokroviteljstvom MSF.

Meni to malo - ako bas hoces - nema smisla, osim kao pokusaj da se rusko-sirijskoj strani pripise da je apsolutno zla, ruzna i prljava, sto vec ima smisla samo sto to ne moze bas tako lako da prodje ne samo kod mene nego i u sve vecem delu sveta koji se nagledao slicnih propagandnih manipulacija u kojima ni vrli MSF nije bio bez putera na glavi.

Umesto da pokusas da das bilo kakav kakav odgovor, poceo si da - kmecis.

Nastavi i dalje, eno ti Andurila pa se drzite za ruke i navijajte do mile volje sa sve humanizmom i renesansom, povlacenjem paralela izmedju idile na ulicama Damaska i haosa na ulicama gradova koje zli Rusi satiru u prah i pepeo.

A prilike za bilo sta mozes da pruzas bilo kome.

Ali u svoja 4 zida.

Ovde i meni - jok.

 

Odlican post. Sve si sam rekao i nastavljas da opisujes sebe kao neko koga gura teorija zavere, a ljudski zivoti su ti sporedni.

Ja se ovde ne zaklanjam nikakvim humanizmom (uzgred, ne sprdaj se sa tim!) jer to MORA da bude deo svakog coveka, a tebi je i nakon petog posta na prici o pogodjenoj bolnici najvaznija 'teorija zavere'.

Eto, neka ti bude. To je materijal koji tebe oslikava kao nekakvog sagovornika.

Tzv. 'kmecanje' je nista naspram ovog tvog udaranja u istu pricu, a kad smo kod 'kmecanja' i dalje imas otvoren ceo ovaj topik i njemu slicne da tvoje jeftine dikreditacije dokazes. S obzirom da to ne radis prihvatas da zivis u jeftinim parolama o 'zaverama'.

Imao sam strrpljenja i uvek cu ga na ovom forumu imati za svaku vrstu rasprave, ali tvoji 'smrducka' i 'zavera' postovi nemaju puno smisla.

Tvoji stavovi o ratu u Siriji su zaista povrsni i uprosceni na nivo koji ne zasluzuje da se ozbiljno komentarisu.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Bane5

[Muwan]

Problem sa dubinskim i kompleksnim tumačenjem koje imamo na topiku je taj da se uvek nekako svede na istu stvar: Asad ultimativno zlo, Rusija superultimativno zlo, Iran malo manje zlo, isis veliko zlo ali osmišljeno u mračnim katakombama Tartusa i Kremlja, svi drugi manje ili veće zlo ali da se vratimo mi na Asada i Rusiju...

 

Površna i uprošćena tumačenja su za sada bolja jer sa mnogo manje utrošenih forumskih resursa stižu do iste poente (četiri noge dobre, dve noge loše).

[Gandalf]

Ne verujem da humanistički argument radi tako crno-belo, i što je još važnije, da je humanistički argument dovoljan da Zapad™ doživljava to kao nesporno svoju borbu.

...

U tom smislu to je možda Gernika za BI, za Arape, za islamski svet (hajd da ga tako nazovem) ali za Zapad™ baš i ne.

s tim da se autor "Zapadom" bas i ne bavi, vec "anti-imperijalistima".

 

https://louisproyect.org/2016/04/24/taking-out-the-baathist-garbage/

Edited May 2, 2016 by Gandalf

[Prospero]

pa obraća se zapadu™ ali sam kaže da je i to "antimperijalno" pretočeno u oficijelnu politiku:
 

Trapped in the vortex of these paranoid fantasies, these anti-humanist do-gooders have failed to notice that what they consider a brave dissent is actually official US policy. A hint of the administration’s thinking on the subject is offered by two of Obama’s former advisors on Syria — Philip Gordon and Steven Simon.

 

a politika je takva zato što, između ostalog, sirija naprosto nije ključna tema.

 

gernika je najava, rani glasnik naci vojno-političkog delovanja, a ne samo neki zločin bombardovanja civila. u tom ključu ga i čitam, dakle šta se može odmotati ako je alep = gernika i ima li kapacitet da u to eventualno uvuče društva kojima se on obraća tekstom u huff-u. 

 

ako nema onda je to samo vox clamantis in deserto, što je ok samo mi izmiče suština paralele.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Prospero

[Prospero]

ISIS'S MULTIMILLION-DOLLAR OIL DEALS WITH ASSAD REGIME UNCOVERED IN U.S. SPECIAL FORCES RAID

BY JACK MOORE 

 

ON 4/26/16 AT 6:50 AM

 

The Syrian regime of Bashar al-Assad has negotiated multimillion-dollar oil deals with the Islamic State militant group (ISIS), new documents retrieved from a U.S. raid against the radical Islamists’ oil chief have revealed.

 

A U.S. special forces raid on ISIS’s oil minister—known by his nom de guerre Abu Sayyaf—in May 2015 saw the extraction of thousands of documents implicating his oil operation with that of the Assad regime, with revenue from the sale of oil to Damascus helping the group to reach a peak of $40 million a month in oil revenue, according to documents seen by The Wall Street Journal.

 

Sayyaf led the group’s oil ministry, known as the Diwan of Natural Resources, and used deals with the Syrian regime to boost the division’s income, contributing 72 percent of $289.5 million the group earned in natural-resource revenues in the six months preceding February 2015.

 

A document identified as Memo No. 156, dated February 11, 2015, from the trove of documents extracted from Sayyaf’s Deir Ezzor hideout shows that the Tunisian national requested assistance from an unknown party on how to build investment links with businessmen allied to the Assad regime.

The document states that ISIS already had agreements in place with Damascus that permitted trucks to move from oil fields under the authority of the regime to travel through ISIS-controlled territory. Two former ISIS oil managers also told the The Wall Street Journal that the group had made deals with businessman connected to the Syrian regime.

 

In the raid, U.S. special forces traveled from Iraq to eastern Syria, where they killed ISIS militants guarding his compound before assassinating Sayyaf.

 

The forces took his wife Umm Sayyaf into custody and transferred her to the hands of Kurdish control.

 

In their sweep across eastern Syria in late 2013 and early 2014, ISIS seized some of Syria’s key oil fields in the Deir Ezzor province, such as al-Tanak and al-Omar. The group lost its first major oil field in Syria, al-Jasbah, where it was producing 3,000 barrels of oil a day, to Syrian-Kurdish forces in January. The U.S.-led coalition is also targeting the group’s oil fields, significantly reducing its ability to refine lucrative oil and sell it to shadowy buyers.

 

[Gandalf]

sam kaže da je i to "antimperijalno" pretočeno u oficijelnu politiku:

nije pretoceno. Obama se tom anti-imperijalnom logikom ne vodi, niti mu je stalo.

 

praznoglavci ne kapiraju da ono sto oni pricaju i pisu, nije nekakvo revolucionarno delovanje kontra drzavne politike - prosto nemaju dovoljno materijala izmedju usiju da skapiraju da je njihova galama sasvim blizu americkoj drzavnoj politici. pa je usporedba sa Gernikom usmerena ljudima koji ce u jednom dahu lamentirati nad uradcima ondasnjih i aplaudirati danasnjim falangistima.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Gandalf

[Anduril]

Problem sa dubinskim i kompleksnim tumačenjem koje imamo na topiku je taj da se uvek nekako svede na istu stvar: Asad ultimativno zlo, Rusija superultimativno zlo, Iran malo manje zlo, isis veliko zlo ali osmišljeno u mračnim katakombama Tartusa i Kremlja, svi drugi manje ili veće zlo ali da se vratimo mi na Asada i Rusiju...

Površna i uprošćena tumačenja su za sada bolja jer sa mnogo manje utrošenih forumskih resursa stižu do iste poente (četiri noge dobre, dve noge loše).

Nije u pitanju zlo nego prosto pitanje: da li postoji kvalitativna razlika izmedju sukobljenih strana ako samo jedna sistematski i godinama koristi tesku artiljeriju i avijaciju protiv civila?

Za mene postoji i zato mi je Asad problematicniji od svih drugih osim IS.

Resenje je vec davno trebala da bude no fly zona bez neke dalje intervencije i uplitanja u sam sukob.