Sirija

[ravena]

vidim da se ISIS siri u Libiji. 

za mene nema dileme da se stanje u Siriji menja na bolje, a stanje u Libiji na gore.

[Gandalf]

A mozda je najbolje od svega da prestanemo da se ponasamo kao da se istina i pravda aminuju prema univerzalnim vrednostima koje propisuje samo jedna strana. A znamo i koja  :)

neke stvari jesu univerzalne.

 

a što se tiče te strane... od slučaja do slučaja, data strana (iz kojih god razloga) povremeno postupa u skladu sa nekim iole ispravnim vrednostima, povremeno ne. ja ču ih kritikovati u potonjem slučaju, a nisam sklon da ih kritikujem za neprijateljski stav prema severnokorejskoj ili sirijskoj režimskoj gamadi.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Gandalf

[namenski]

neke stvari jesu univerzalne.

 

a što se tiče te strane... od slučaja do slučaja, data strana (iz kojih god razloga) povremeno postupa u skladu sa nekim iole ispravnim vrednostima, povremeno ne. ja ču ih kritikovati u potonjem slučaju, a nisam sklon da ih kritikujem za neprijateljski stav prema severnokorejskoj ili sirijskoj režimskoj gamadi.

Ne znam kako da ti kazem, a da te ne uvredim  :D : to svi radimo, manje ili vise, svako prema afinitetima, sposobnostima ili raspolozenju.

Ljudi smo, jel' tako?

Problem nastaje kad  data strana  :) pocne da moralise, dakle kad pocne da odredjuje sta su to ispravne vrednosti i kolika kolicina istih kvalifikuje nekog za dobrog ili loseg momka.

To u politici ne fercera jer se po pravilu zavrsava u licemerju i takozvanim dvostrukim standardima, obaska sto ubija doslednost i time oduzima i ono malo kredibiliteta stecenog odbranom pravih^tm vrednosti: mozemo - naravno rec je o Americi, kom bi drugom - da ih podrzavamo glede odnosa prema sirijskoj ili severnokorejskoj gamadi ili kritikujemo zbog odnosa prema, na primer, SA gamadi.

Problem je samo u tome sto onaj ko se upusti u moralisanje nema prava na nedoslednost: moral i ispravne vrednosti se ne dele podobnim i manje podobnim.

 

A sto se univerzalnosti tice nece to biti bas tako, al' 'ajde, da ne trolujemo.

Edited March 29, 2016 by namenski

[Gandalf]

Problem nastaje kad data strana  :) pocne da moralise, dakle kad pocne da odredjuje sta su to ispravne vrednosti i kolika kolicina istih kvalifikuje nekog za dobrog ili loseg momka.

jesu li ti dvostruki standardi i nedoslednost doveli do toga da strana interveniše u Koreji 1950-e? ako jesu, to su odlični standardi i najbolja moguća nedoslednost. mašala, neka morališu i seru do mile volje. ako su pak ti standardi doveli do toga da strana podrži Pinočea, onda to ne valja ništa.

[dillinger]

neke stvari jesu univerzalne.

 

a što se tiče te strane... od slučaja do slučaja, data strana (iz kojih god razloga) povremeno postupa u skladu sa nekim iole ispravnim vrednostima, povremeno ne. ja ču ih kritikovati u potonjem slučaju, a nisam sklon da ih kritikujem za neprijateljski stav prema severnokorejskoj ili sirijskoj režimskoj gamadi.

 

 

Ja se nadam samo da će data strana  andurilovsku vladavinu prava i ljudske slobode ispromovisati u najbližem komšiluku ne bi li oslobodila milione helota pod strahovladom Sauda

 

 

Western Powers Unlikely to Impose Arms Embargo on Saudi Arabia

 

UNITED NATIONS, Mar 24 2016 (IPS) - As hundreds of civilians continue to be killed in the ongoing conflict in Yemen, one of the leading human rights organization is calling for an arms embargo – specifically against Saudi Arabia which is leading a coalition of eight countries battling Houthi rebels in the war-ravaged neighbouring country.

But chances of an embargo are remote considering the massive multi-billion dollar arms markets nurtured by the three Western powers who, coincidentally, are three of the five veto-wielding permanent members of the UN Security Council (the other two being China and Russia).“The United States, United Kingdom, France and others should suspend all weapon sales to Saudi Arabia until it not only curtails its unlawful airstrikes in Yemen but also credibly investigates alleged violations”, said Human Rights Watch (HRW).

Asked for a response, Pieter Wezeman, Senior Researcher, Arms and Military Expenditure Programme, at the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) told IPS the final direct results of such calls in terms of actual restrictions have been minimal, though they serve as a clear symbolic element of the campaigns aimed at ending what is considered the irresponsible or even criminal use of arms by Saudi Arabia in Yemen.

“The only case of significant restrictions involves the Netherlands announcing in January that it will only issue permits for arms exports to Saudi Arabia if it is certain the arms in question cannot be used in Yemen,” he pointed out.

“For the past year, governments that arm Saudi Arabia have rejected or downplayed compelling evidence that the coalition’s airstrikes have killed hundreds of civilians in Yemen,” said Philippe Bolopion, Deputy Global Advocacy Director at Human Rights Watch.

“By continuing to sell weapons to a known violator that has done little to curtail its abuses, the US, UK, and France risk being complicit in unlawful civilian deaths,” he added.

Asked whether a Western arms embargo would be realistic, Bolopion told IPS: “Lucrative arms deals should not blind the US government to the appalling abuses committed over the last year by the Saudi-led coalition in Yemen.”

He said looking the other way and continuing to provide arms to Saudi Arabia would expose the US to a risk of complicity in these crimes.

“You can’t put a price tag on that,” he added

Currently, the Saudis have strong military links to the three Western powers — with British, French and mostly American military suppliers providing sophisticated weapons, including state-of-the-art fighter planes, helicopters, missiles, battle tanks and electronic warfare systems.

The Saudi arsenal includes Boeing F-15 fighter planes (US supplied), Tornado strike aircraft (UK), Aerospatiale Puma and Dauphin attack helicopters (French), Bell, Apache and Sikorsky helicopters (US), Boeing E-3A Airborne Warning Control System (US), Sidewinder, Sparrow and Stinger missiles (US) and Abrams and M60 battle tanks (US).

The Saudi-led coalition, unleashing air attacks on Yemen, consist of Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, Egypt, Jordan, Morocco, and Sudan.

The Houthi rebels, on the other hand, are also accused of indiscriminate attacks resulting in civilian killings.

In a statement released here, HRW said non-governmental organizations and the United Nations have investigated and reported on numerous unlawful coalition airstrikes since the beginning of the conflict in March 2015.

Human Rights Watch, Crisis Action, Amnesty International, and other international and Yemeni groups have issued a joint statement calling for the cessation of sales and transfers of all weapons and military-related equipment to parties to the conflict in Yemen where “there is a substantial risk of these arms being used… to commit or facilitate serious violations of international humanitarian law or international human rights law.”

Human Rights Watch has documented 36 unlawful airstrikes – some of which may amount to war crimes – that have killed at least 550 civilians, as well as 15 attacks involving internationally banned cluster munitions.

The UN Panel of Experts on Yemen, established under UN Security Council Resolution 2140 (2013), in a report made public on January 26, 2016, “documented 119 coalition sorties relating to violations” of the laws of war, according to HRW.

Saudi Arabia has not responded to letters from HRW detailing apparent violations by the coalition and seeking clarification on the intended target of attack.

On the contrary, Saudi Arabia has successfully lobbied the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva to prevent it from creating an independent, international investigative mechanism.

Wezeman told IPS considering both the size of the arms sales to Saudi Arabia and several of its allies and the military campaign against the Houthi rebels the lack of enthusiasm amongst governments to restrict arms sales is not surprising.

He pointed out that Saudi Arabia was the world’s second largest arms importer in the past five years.

Despite the steep fall in oil prices and drop in Saudi government revenues, signs are that the country will continue to order more expensive military equipment.

For the UK, Saudi Arabia has been the most important arms export market for many years.

France has for years tried hard to increase its arms sales to the country and has found in 2015 new major markets in Egypt and Qatar, countries that are involved in the military intervention in Yemen, he said.

In addition, said Wezeman, there is a fear that significant arms sales restrictions will damage other trade relations with these countries, which are worth more than the arms deals.

In the case of the US, he said, the economic aspects of arms sales to Saudi Arabia are significant too even if they are less essential to the US arms industry as compared to what’s the case in Europe.

The US has in the past shown to be prepared to impose export restriction even if it involved significant loss of revenues, though losing the Saudi market would probably be too big a economic loss in any case.

However, possibly more important, the US considers the Saudi actions as an important part of efforts to establish security in the region and therefore supports the military intervention as part of overall US foreign and security policy.

“A lot has to happen before the US suspends its arms supplies to Saudi Arabia,” Wezeman added.

Jamie McGoldrick, the UN Resident and Humanitarian Coordinator in Yemen, told reporters in Geneva early this week that 2015 has been a terrible one for Yemen, with airstrikes, shelling and localized violence.

One in ten Yemenis is displaced — 2.5 million people. More than 6,400 people have been killed and more than 30,000 injured, with half of those killed and injured being civilians.

Today, he said, more than 20 million people in Yemen — 80 per cent of the population — require some kind of humanitarian assistance: 14 million people need food assistance; 7 million people are severely food insecure; 20 million people do not have access to water and sanitation; and 14 million lack adequate health care.

At the same time, he said, human rights violations have soared.

Meanwhile, the Special Envoy of the Secretary-General for Yemen, Ismail Ould Cheikh Ahmed, said Wednesday he had just completed an extensive round of consultations with Yemeni leaders and regional partners.

After active consultations with the President Hadi and Yemeni officials in Riyadh and the delegations of Ansar Allah and the General People’s Congress in Sana’a, the parties to the conflict have agreed to a nation-wide cessation of hostilities beginning at midnight on 10 April, he said.

This is in advance of the upcoming round of peace talks, which will take place on 18 April in Kuwait, to be hosted by the Prince of Kuwait Sabah Al-Ahmad Al-Jaber Al-Sabah.

http://www.ipsnews.net/2016/03/western-powers-unlikely-to-impose-arms-embargo-on-saudi-arabia/

[Gandalf]

Ja se nadam samo da će data strana  andurilovsku vladavinu prava i ljudske slobode ispromovisati u najbližem komšiluku ne bi li oslobodila milione helota pod strahovladom Sauda

prosperitetna monarhija, očekivane reforme tu odmah iza ćoška, narod ćutljiv, bundžije u zatvoru gde im je i mesto.

 

blagoslovena stabilnost.

[barrcode]

bogami, front se opasno približava Dabiq-u.

kraj rata je blizu , ali opet i Svetu je odzvonilo.

[iDemo]

kraj rata je blizu , ali opet i Svetu je odzvonilo.

 

+1

[Eraserhead]

 

Ja se nadam samo da će data strana andurilovsku vladavinu prava i ljudske slobode ispromovisati u najbližem komšiluku ne bi li oslobodila milione helota pod strahovladom Sauda

http://www.ipsnews.net/2016/03/western-powers-unlikely-to-impose-arms-embargo-on-saudi-arabia/

Ti bi naravno to osudio i podrzao vladajucu familiju ko sto cinis u Siriji.

[dillinger]

Ti bi naravno to osudio i podrzao vladajucu familiju ko sto cinis u Siriji.

 

Mojne sad, zna se kome su na vrhu prioriteta demokratija, ljudska prava, vladavina prava....i kome se već godinama ispod radara provlači to što rade Saudi kako svojim građanima, tako juče Bahreinu, danas Jemenu itd

Ja btw ne sumnjam da bi konkretno ti to barem načelno osudio, za Andurila koji podržava el Sisija već nisam siguran...

[bigvlada]

prosperitetna monarhija, očekivane reforme tu odmah iza ćoška, narod ćutljiv, bundžije u zatvoru gde im je i mesto.

 

blagoslovena stabilnost.

 

Žene prave izuzetno malo prekršaja u saobraćaju...

[mackenzie]

kao što Siriji želiš doživotnog diktatora, isto to želiš i Srbiji? možda nekog Mađara ili Bošnjaka za diktatora? mislim da bi srpskim divljacima jedan Mađar dobro legao. Mađari su fin i pristojan narod, doveli bi Srbe u red.

 

Samo što je Assad arapin kao i oni u FSA. Jedino vam u sektaškom narativu smeta što je alawit, mada i oni spadaju pod muslimane, ne? 

 

 

kapiram da tamo niceg pansirijskog nema

 

Možda jedino nešto "pansirijsko" dolazi iz Sirijske social-nacionalne partije SSNP.

 

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/03/28/the-eagles-of-the-whirlwind/

[vathra]

Што се тиче војне ситуације, препоручио бих форумашима да прате сајт Al Masdar News. Дају ажурне вести са терена, и прилично су коректни, иако бих рекао да су про владини. Јављају и вести напредовања са друге стране.

 

Оно због чега су занимљиви при овој дискусији је што за сваки сукоб наводе које јединице су биле умешане, па се може видети ко се све бори (и где) на страни владе.

[namenski]

jesu li ti dvostruki standardi i nedoslednost doveli do toga da strana interveniše u Koreji 1950-e? ako jesu, to su odlični standardi i najbolja moguća nedoslednost. mašala, neka morališu i seru do mile volje. ako su pak ti standardi doveli do toga da strana podrži Pinočea, onda to ne valja ništa.

:D

Odakle mi osjecaj da sam tacno znao kude ces da gadjas.

Znas kako: prodavanje/insistiranje na moralu kao kategoriji u politici, medjunarodnoj narocito - obavezuje na doslednost.

Noblesse oblige, il' si nindza il' si mindza, ili - pod obavezno ocas posla skliznes u licemerje, sto je, sve u svemu i na duze staze kontraproduktivno.

Amerika je najbolji primer: danasnji raznorazni antiamerikanizmi su nikli i odrzavaju se najvecim delom na nedoslednosti u primeni koncepta kao sto su, na primer, cuvena i takozvana ljudska prava.

Hladnoratovski koncept koji je imao smisla kao 1 oruzje iz arsenala koriscenog protiv tadasnjeg arhineprijatelja i na koji su se, posle, primili razni Andurili sa sve novokomponovanim demokratijama diljem sveta u kojima je gola i isprazna maska kao sto je, na primer, odrzavanje gej parade postalo mera slobode i ljudskih prava.

Ispostavilo se, naime, da ljudi diljem Planete ljudska prava shvataju na razne nacine, negde ne umeju, negde nece, a iznad svega ne zele - jer to je tako ljudski - da im se nesto natura kao gotov i univerzalan, sveresavajuci recept za srecu i blagostanje.

Kad sve to pomesas sa podrskom najopskurnijim mogucim diktatorima, raznim Somozama i njemu slicnim, koje podrzavas, kad tvoja sopstvena kompanija politika iznedri politicki termin banana drzave, pa, ne ide, jebi ga.

Dzaba ti presvlacenje u skladu sa najnovijim marketinskim dostignucima: United Fruit jeste postao Chiquita Bananas, ali - jebi ga.

Inace, cudno da si pomenuo Koreju 50-ih.

Verovatno imas na umu takozvanu Bodo League i masakre vezane za njeno ime, a sve u novokomponovanim pokusajima da se vezivanjem tih masakra za ime jedne politicke organizacije, sakrije, da se vlasi ne dosete ko, kako i zasto:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Zajebo si se sa Korejom: jednostavno zato sto se radi o jednom jucerasnjem svetu u kome su vazili - uprkos svim modernim ponovnim citanjima istorije - neki drugi standardi i po kojima je - i danas - kinesko/sovjetska intervencija imala isto onoliko smisla/opravdanja/razloga kao americka koju, vidim, hvalis.

Srece - bas kao i sve intervencije - nisu donele nikom pa nece ni tebi ako nastavis da se pozivas na njih  :P

 

Cudno, inace, kako u odbrani intervencija, imate selektivno pamcenje  :D : strana o kojoj pricamo umela je i da - intevenisuci - dobije i preko picke od ljudi motivisanijih, bolje vodjenih i - pre svega - ljudi koji su neke svoje vrednosti stavljali iznad tudjih pa ma i po cenu zivota inace jedna kategorija s kojom se danas, u doba dronova i svakojakog zakonitog ubijanja sirom sveta bas nesto i ne voli da barata.

Nije komforno za prosecnog branitelja vrednosti.

Nemoj mi - u eventualnom nastavku - o tome da se bombe ne jedu: ono sto ispada iz onog gore aviona nisu boce koka-kole, a ni neka slicna vrednost koja treba da pokaze/dokaze da je sva sreca ovog sveta u demokratiji i ostalim slobodama, ali samo ako su one u skladu...

 

 

prosperitetna monarhija, očekivane reforme tu odmah iza ćoška, narod ćutljiv, bundžije u zatvoru gde im je i mesto.

 

blagoslovena stabilnost.

Sta da ti kazem osim verovanja da bi u Siriji, danas, velika vecina onih koji se ne cuju na slobodnim i demokratskim izborima^tm bila upravo za - blagoslovenu stabilnost.

A da je monarhija koju pominjes prosperitetna - jeste.

Pitam se samo zasto joj ne uvedu sankcije zbog nesto sitnih krsenja ljudskih prava, onako demonstracije doslednosti radi.

[Pečorin]

vidim da se ISIS siri u Libiji. 

za mene nema dileme da se stanje u Siriji menja na bolje, a stanje u Libiji na gore.

 

kao virus su. a kad nestanu tu i u iraku/siriju, mozda se prebace u pakistan ili tako negde..