Avijacija bez granica...

[jms_uk]

Ne mogu da se odlucim da li mi taj Jet2 lici vise na B757 ili DC-8 sa dva motora :D

[bigvlada]

Postoji nekoliko hiljada projekata putničkih aviona posle 1945 koji nikada nisu napustili papir. Velika većina njih liči kao jaje jajetu. Slična rešenja za iste probleme i zahteve.  

[bigvlada]

Dvodelna priča o počecima Airbus-a i A300

 

 

How American Airlines Shaped the A300

In 1966, Sud Aviation and Breguet of France signed an agreement to cooperate with fellow French aircraft company Nord Aviation and British manufacturer Hawker Siddeley on a medium-range twin-aisle widebody aircraft with two engines tentatively designated HBN100. French President Charles De Gaulle asked Roger Beteille, an experienced technical manager who was the head of Alcatel Space, a French space systems company, to head the new joint venture. Beteille was one of the few French aeronautical managers who was fluent in English as well and highly regarded by the Hawker Siddeley team. For the next year, Beteille honed the HBN100 design to reflect the European marketplace as well as to accommodate the delicate political aspirations of each of the partners in the program. Size, capacity, range and even engine options were hammered out.

 

By 1967 Beteille was aware of the coming widebody competition in the United States with the McDonnell Douglas DC-10 and the Lockheed L-1011 Tristar. Both aircraft were trijets whereas the HBN100 design would be a twin jet of slightly smaller size. Rolls-Royce was already working with Lockheed to launch the RB.211 engine for the Tristar whilst working on the proposed RB.207 engine for the HBN100. At the time, the HBN100 design was larger than what it would be come as the A300 and Rolls-Royce was investing more time and energy in getting the RB.211 to market than the RB.207, something that troubled Beteille (it would also ultimately lead to Great Britain pulling out of the Airbus consortium). In a master stroke, Beteille convinced the partner nations to accept a smaller design that could use the same engines as were being developed for the Lockheed Tristar (the Rolls-Royce RB.211) and McDonnell Douglas DC-10 (the General Electric CF6). By getting the partners to agree to a smaller design, Beteille insured that Rolls-Royce wouldn't delay the program by dragging its feet on the more powerful RB.207 engine. Ultimately in 1969 Rolls-Royce abandoned development of the RB.207, so Beteille's decision was a prescient one.

With the Tristar and the DC-10 flying first, the engines could be debugged and by the time what would become the A300 first flew, the engine choices would be operationally mature. It was a master stroke that saved the A300 at its most nascent stage. But Beteille was no gambler and deliberate in his calculations to keep the program moving. He often told his associates that it would be necessary to understand the American market as it was the biggest passenger market in the world. If Beteille's aircraft was going to be a success, they needed to make it in the United States as well. The airlines of the United States at the time were the operational envy of the world and Beteille decided he needed to meet with both United and American, as both airlines were known for the technical expertise and operational efficiency. And it didn't hurt that both airlines were launching the DC-10 which was powered by the same GE CF6 engine that Beteille wanted as an option on the A300.

 

I had posted earlier about American Airlines' selection of the DC-10 and how American had laid out the original specifications for a widebody twin. The other airlines briefed wanted either three engines or four engines and American was the only airline who wanted only two engines. After meeting with United Airlines in San Francisco, Beteille met with Frank Kolk, American Airlines' VP for Development Engineering who originally authored the specifications that led to the DC-10. When Beteille met with Kolk, the tough-talking Texan admitted that he was disappointed that the DC-10 would have three engines as he would have much preferred a widebody twinjet. Neither McDonnell Douglas or Lockheed was interested in a twinjet and Kolk was very enthusiastic to meet with a team that shared his vision for widebody twin despite American's launch of the DC-10. In their discussions, Kolk discussed in detail what American wanted and its reasons for wanting a twinjet (fuel economy, operating economics, lower price per aircraft given that engines can amount to 35-40% of the cost of a new jet). Knowing what Beteille had planned, Kolk shared the original specifications with him and Beteille quickly returned to Europe and used American's specification and results of his discussion with Frank Kolk to nail down the final configuration and operating parameters of the A300.

On 11 December 1968, the newly-formed Airbus Industrie revealed its Airbus A300B design to the aviation world. To this day Roger Beteille believes that it was the advice and discussions with Frank Kolk that made the A300 so successful that it formed the basis of the later A310, A330 and A340 jetliners. Ironically, it wasn't until April 1988 that American Airlines took delivery as the launch customer of the extended range A300-600R that was recently retired after over 20 years of service with American. Despite already having the Boeing 767-200/300 in the fleet, the A300 in its penultimate incarnation did eventually serve with Frank Kolk's airline!

Source: Flight of the Titans: Boeing, Airbus, and the Battle for the Future of Air Travel by Kenny Kemp. Virgin Books, 2006, p71-77.

http://aviationtrivia.blogspot.com/2010/09/how-american-airlines-shaped-a300.html

[bigvlada]

An American Astronaut Saves the A300 and Airbus


The first several years of Airbus' existence after the first flight of the A300 were miserable ones as orders slowly trickled in while the McDonnell Douglas DC-10 and the Lockheed L-1011 Tristar were racking up order after order from the world's airlines. Between the end of 1975 and May of 1977, Airbus failed to get even a single order for the A300. The joke at the factory at Toulouse was "Don't miss the last train out of town to Germany" in reference to the large number of German workers present. Part of the problem was the recession in the wake of the 1973 Yom Kippur War and the Arab oil embargo on the West. But a big part of the problem was the Airbus was an upstart facing the powerful sales machines of Boeing, McDonnell Douglas, and Lockheed. For a lot of the world's airlines, buying the A300 simply wasn't on their radar screen. The program was in jeopardy and the member nations of the Airbus consortium were getting restless as debates continued on whether they'd misread the market or not.

 

But all of that was to change with the passage of airline deregulation in the United States. The world's largest airline market in terms of passengers moved, breaking into the US market was a key goal for Airbus and one of the main reasons that they had sought the advice of Frank Kolk at American Airlines back in the late 1960s when the design was still being formalized. With deregulation, free market forces now determined routes, fares and frequencies on the US East Coast, one of the dominant legacy carriers was taking a severe beating on its prized routes between the US Northeast and Florida. Eastern found itself embroiled in a bruising market fight with National and Delta. Eastern was already operating the Lockheed Tristar on the routes and word got to Airbus that they were interested in a 200-seat aircraft with better operating economics than the Tristar. With only two engines, the fuel burn on the A300 was already lower than that of the Tristar and with 2/3 the seating capacity, Airbus felt they had an ideal product to meet Eastern's needs.



Eastern had been in discussions with Boeing, Lockheed, and McDonnell Douglas already but Eastern's financial position in the wake its battle with National and Delta meant it needed an aircraft with better economics than the Tristar and it needed them at a sweet deal. On the day of the final sales presentations by the all the manufacturers, Airbus was slotted in to present to Eastern's management and its president, former Apollo 8 mission commander and astronaut Frank Borman. Airbus' team gave its presentation and then offered a sweetener- they had four "white tail" aircraft (completed A300s that had no buyers) that Eastern could immediately lease for a four month trial. If they were happy with the aircraft, they could order more. Borman sent word to Toulouse after deliberations "Congratulations, you've got a blue-eyed baby." It was the breakthrough that saved the A300 program- after a very successful trial, on 6 April 1978, Eastern ordered 23 A300s with options on more. But the bold move by Borman upset many.

The Department of Commerce and some in the US government demanded an explanation from Borman. After all, political influence several years earlier was successful in steering Western Airlines away from the A300. Borman was accused of being anti-patriotic depsite his military and space records. Charles Forsyth, the VP for McDonnell Douglas, even angrily called Borman directly and accused him of being unpatriotic. Borman reportedly asked Forsyth what brand of luxury car he drove, knowing the answer wasn't American. Borman explained that the most valuable part of the Airbus A300 were its engines and those engines were GE engines along with a large amount of American content from thousands of subcontractors. Congressional hearings were even held at Boeing's urging with accusations of predatory pricing by Airbus to make the sales- many of the same arguments being made these days in Airbus versus Boeing sales fights. Regardless, it was a major achievement for the young Airbus Industrie and would become legend throughout Europe how an American astronaut saved the A300 program.

Source: Flight of the Titans: Boeing, Airbus, and the Battle for the Future of Air Travel by Kenny Kemp. Virgin Books, 2006, p96-99.

http://aviationtrivia.blogspot.com/2010/09/american-astronaut-saves-a300-and.html

 

Kao što vidimo, izreka ko poslednji izađe neka ugasi svetlo nije naš izum. :) 

[bigvlada]

China unveils sophisticated stealth fighter aircraft

By Fang Yan and Megha Rajagopalan

ZHUHAI/BEIJING Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:21am EST

 

 

A J-31 stealth fighter of the Chinese People's Liberation Army Air Force is seen during a test flight ahead of the 10th China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition in Zhuhai, Guangdong province, November 10, 2014.


(Reuters) - China unveiled a sophisticated new stealth fighter jet at an air show on Tuesday, a show of muscle during a visit by U.S. President Barack Obama for an Asia-Pacific summit.

China hopes the much-anticipated J-31 stealth aircraft, developed by the Aviation Industry Corp of China (Avic), the country's top aircraft maker, will compete with U.S.-made hardware in export markets.

The twin-engine fighter jet was unveiled at the China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition in the southern city of Zhuhai, a biennial event at which China shows off its military technology, a Reuters witness said.

The J-31 conducted a demonstration but was not put on display afterwards although a mock-up version was on show.

An Avic spokesman declined to comment on any orders for the aircraft.

"We were told not to do any promotion for the plane," said the spokesman, Fu Mingyao. He did not elaborate.

There are slated to be at least two more J-31 demonstrations at the show, Avic officials said.

China hopes the J-31 will compete with the U.S.-made F-35 stealth aircraft as China works to strengthen its standing as an arms producer, according to China military watchers and state media reports.

"Experts predict that the J-31 will make rapid inroads in the international market in the future, and will undoubtedly steal the limelight from the F-35," the ruling Communist Party's People's Daily reported on its website in August 2013.

It said the aircraft would be particularly attractive to countries that are cut off from U.S. arms exports.

The J-31 is about the same size as the F-35, the U.S. Department of Defense said in a report this year.

Stealth aircraft are key for China's air force to evolve from a mostly territorial air force to developing the ability to carry out both offensive and defensive operations, the Pentagon said in the report about developments in China's military.

The J-31 is China's second domestically produced stealth fighter. Analysts say development of stealth aircraft enable China to better project its power as it takes on a more assertive stance in the East China and South China seas.

President Xi Jinping has been pushing to strengthen China's 2.3 million-strong armed forces.

Obama, attending an Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation forum meeting in Beijing, is due to meet Xi on Wednesday.


(The story was refiled to correct the description of the air show in the third paragraph to "biennial")


(Editing by Robert Birsel)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/11/us-china-military-idUSKCN0IV0WY20141111

 

F-22,F-35,PAKFA,J-20,J-31... lista "potajnih" aviona je sve duža. Evropa kaska. 

[hazard]

China unveils new sophisticated copy of F-35 stealth fighter aircraft built with copied Russian components

 

Eto, ispravio sam ;) :)

[hazard]

F-22,F-35,PAKFA,J-20,J-31... lista "potajnih" aviona je sve duža. Evropa kaska. 

 

Cudno mi je da kazes da Evropa kaska kada si nedavno iznad postavio ovu mapu:

 

 

 

 

Gde se vidi da su evropske zemlje "do guse" upletene u projekat F-35. Uostalom nije on dzaba nazvan "Joint Strike Fighter" (JSF). Bez Britanije i Holandije npr., tog aviona ne bi ni bilo.

 

Ova mapa takodje pokazuje kako vise ni 1 Amerika sama ne razvija ultra-moderni borbeni visenamenski avion, vec da i oni traze partnere. Ne bi me cudilo da u sledecoj iteraciji budemo imali jednog NATO, jednog ruskog i jednog kineskog lovca-jurisnika, i da to bude sve. Pitanje je zapravo koliko ce Rusi moci da izdrze kao nezavistan igrac.

[bigvlada]

Cudno mi je da kazes da Evropa kaska kada si nedavno iznad postavio ovu mapu:

 

 

 

Gde se vidi da su evropske zemlje "do guse" upletene u projekat F-35. Uostalom nije on dzaba nazvan "Joint Strike Fighter" (JSF). Bez Britanije i Holandije npr., tog aviona ne bi ni bilo.

 

Ova mapa takodje pokazuje kako vise ni 1 Amerika sama ne razvija ultra-moderni borbeni visenamenski avion, vec da i oni traze partnere. Ne bi me cudilo da u sledecoj iteraciji budemo imali jednog NATO, jednog ruskog i jednog kineskog lovca-jurisnika, i da to bude sve. Pitanje je zapravo koliko ce Rusi moci da izdrze kao nezavistan igrac.

 

Kada sam rekao kaska, mislio sam na to da nemaju sopstveni projekat. Prave oni dosta delova za F 35 ali čak ni Britanci nemaju potpun pristup npr. softveru, nije to to. I kada je kod nas bila aktuelna priča zajedničkog razvoja Novog Aviona sa Francuskom CATIA nije bila deo dogovora. Rusi razvijaju jednomotornu verziju PAKFA sa Indijom.

[borris_]

Mislis softver CATIA?

 

Soko Mostar je imao taj softver 80-ih godina.

[hazard]

 Rusi razvijaju jednomotornu verziju PAKFA sa Indijom.

 

Vrlo sam skeptican glede indijskih kapaciteta. Mislim da ce to da se svede na to da Indijci daju neki kes i dobiju proizvodnju nekih komponenata (za avione koje ce kupiti Indija) + nauce nesto od Rusa. Rusi ce tu da dobiju pare za razvoj + garantovanu kupovinu X aviona od strane RV Indije. Kinezi mnogo bolje i brze uce kopirajuci Ruse, pa opet, posle skoro 40 godina (ako ne i vise) kopiranja ruskih dizajna i dalje nisu na istom nivou. Indija tu ima mnogo kracu istoriju...pogledajmo razvoj LCA tj. Tedzasa...rade ga 30 godina i do sada su uspeli da uvedu 15 aviona u upotrebu...kilavo je to.

Edited November 14, 2014 by hazard

[Shan Jan]

Ali zato Indusi imaju trziste koje ni rusi nemaju. Prave sami dva nova nosaca aviona, planiraju uvodjenje u upotrebu 200 aparata svoje verzije (unapredjenog) PAKFA, razvijaju krstarece hipersonicne rakete sa rujama (BrahMos), najveci su uvoznik oruzja... Mislim da ce sve vise da budu bolji u kopiranju + imaju odlicnu pregovaracku poziciju da traze sve vise know-howa. 

[gone fishing]

a ameri trljaju ruke na ovo trošenje para kineza, jer će bogati japanci i koreanci morati da odgovore kupovinom barem po 100 novih f35 lovaca kako bi mogli da pariraju susjedima

[Shan Jan]

Da, novi hladni rat(ovi) ima da dizu vojne budzete samo tako. Valjda ce se i kosmicka industrija ovajditi opet.

[hazard]

Ali zato Indusi imaju trziste koje ni rusi nemaju. Prave sami dva nova nosaca aviona, planiraju uvodjenje u upotrebu 200 aparata svoje verzije (unapredjenog) PAKFA, razvijaju krstarece hipersonicne rakete sa rujama (BrahMos), najveci su uvoznik oruzja... Mislim da ce sve vise da budu bolji u kopiranju + imaju odlicnu pregovaracku poziciju da traze sve vise know-howa. 

 

Pa to i kazem, ta saradnja se svodi na indijsku licencnu proizvodnju onoga sto Rusi zamisle i na finansiranje ruskog projekta tim velikim indijskim trzistem.

[bigvlada]

Mislis softver CATIA?

 

Soko Mostar je imao taj softver 80-ih godina.

Zaista? Nisam to znao. Da li je to nabavljeno pre ili posle razgovora o Novom Avionu?

 

Vrlo sam skeptican glede indijskih kapaciteta. Mislim da ce to da se svede na to da Indijci daju neki kes i dobiju proizvodnju nekih komponenata (za avione koje ce kupiti Indija) + nauce nesto od Rusa. Rusi ce tu da dobiju pare za razvoj + garantovanu kupovinu X aviona od strane RV Indije. Kinezi mnogo bolje i brze uce kopirajuci Ruse, pa opet, posle skoro 40 godina (ako ne i vise) kopiranja ruskih dizajna i dalje nisu na istom nivou. Indija tu ima mnogo kracu istoriju...pogledajmo razvoj LCA tj. Tedzasa...rade ga 30 godina i do sada su uspeli da uvedu 15 aviona u upotrebu...kilavo je to.

 

Kod takvih ugovora je uvek problem novac, transfer tehnologije i podela posla. Rusko-evropski kosmički tegljač Kliper nije uspeo jer nisu mogli da se dogovore o obimu EU udela. Ima i slučajeva kada jedna strana odbija bilo kakvu saradnju, kao što je bio slučaj sa kapsulom Orion, ponuda EU o zajedničkom razvoju je gurnuta u fioku. I to nije prvi takav slučaj. Britanija je dala sve što je imala tokom razvoja atomske bombe da bi na kraju SAD jednostrano odlučile da neće da dele tehnologiju sa drugim zemljama. Mislim da si potpuno u pravu, i u pogledu indijskih kapaciteta i njihove stručnosti (trebalo im je i 30+ godina za tenk). Ono gde oni mogu da doprinesu je softver.