Kolonizacija Marsa

[Roger Sanchez]

U stvari problem je verovatno softverski tj. racunar..... Inace, na racunaru je radila NASA. Pa su se i oni nocas uzburkali.

Naravno, tko će sjebat ako ne glupi nerazvijeni Ameri. Ruska tehnika, bate, radi harašo! Nemere da omane! Edited November 9, 2011 by Roger Sanchez

[Antares]

Naravno, tko će sjebat ako ne glupi nerazvijeni Ameri. Ruska tehnika, bate, radi harašo! Nema tu kvar!

Pa evo ovamo na nasaspaceflight forumu pojasnjenje. JPL-ov komp je pomocni i sluzio bi, nominalno, samo da parkira letelicu u orbitu oko Marsa. A tokom lansiranja je isto ukljucen, pored glavnog ruskog kompa. Valjda eventualno da preuzme kontrolu ako nesto krene nizbrdo. Tako da uopste nije jasno da li je uopste greska u kompu, a kamoli koji komp (ruski glavni ili JPLov) je krivac...

[Roger Sanchez]

Pa evo ovamo na nasaspaceflight forumu pojasnjenje. JPL-ov komp je pomocni i sluzio bi, nominalno, samo da parkira letelicu u orbitu oko Marsa. A tokom lansiranja je isto ukljucen, pored glavnog ruskog kompa. Valjda eventualno da preuzme kontrolu ako nesto krene nizbrdo. Tako da uopste nije jasno da li je uopste greska u kompu, a kamoli koji komp (ruski glavni ili JPLov) je krivac...

Nemoj sad ti tu unositi neke realnosti i ekvivokacije! NASA - fuckup! Usto, ni američki avijoni nisu ništa prema remek djelima vazduhoplovstva !

(naravno, ide mi na jetra još jedan Ruska Tehnika rulz! novopridošli gore citirani pionir, i ne mogu odoljeti)

[gone fishing]

kod takvih misija ste uvek 1 tranzistor udaljeni od katastrofe, čudi me da nemaju backup backup-ovog backup-a - barem su računari danas dovoljno mali i dovoljno jeftini i štedljivi da se mogu višestruko osigurati od ovakvih problema

[hazard]

- barem su računari danas dovoljno mali i dovoljno jeftini i štedljivi da se mogu višestruko osigurati od ovakvih problema

pitanje je - kakvi racunari? ne mozes dzabdzabe pentijuma baciti u satelit i poslati u svemir ;)

[gone fishing]

dobro svakako da imaju adekvatnu zaštitu od zračenja, računar u apolo programu je bio x puta slabiji od današnjih mobilnih telefona ili putnih računara u automobilima (radio je na 2 MHz), pri tome je težio skromne 32 kile, pa su opet stigli do meseca i nazad

[hazard]

pa nije u pitanju samo racunarska moc niti zastita od zracenja (sto je obavezno) vec pouzdanost...cip koji sljaka u tvom kucnom racunaru ili mobilnom nikada ne bi otisao da kontrolise nuklearni reaktor ili satelit (tj. bar ne bi trebalo)...potrebna je visoka pouzdanost i hardvera i softvera i to se onda uglavnom radi namenski dakle nije nesto sto ide iz ultra-masovne proizvodnje dakle nije nesto sto je bas toliko jeftino.

[Roger Sanchez]

Jadni kineski satelit je isto nevina žrtva ovog echeca.

[gone fishing]

pa nije u pitanju samo racunarska moc niti zastita od zracenja (sto je obavezno) vec pouzdanost...cip koji sljaka u tvom kucnom racunaru ili mobilnom nikada ne bi otisao da kontrolise nuklearni reaktor ili satelit (tj. bar ne bi trebalo)...potrebna je visoka pouzdanost i hardvera i softvera i to se onda uglavnom radi namenski dakle nije nesto sto ide iz ultra-masovne proizvodnje dakle nije nesto sto je bas toliko jeftino.

čip u smarphone-u je milion puta moćniji od onog u apolu i ništa jače nije ni potrebno za put do marsa, moja poenta je bila da je usled nano dimenzija današnjih čipova moguće poneti i 4-5 backup u svemir bez značajnog povećanja težine - ili ti smatraš da su ti spec. čipovi većih dimenzija od standardnih, može važiti samo obrnuto, a verujem da nasa-u snabdeva mit sa čipovima koje će intel ili amd ponuditi tržištu u narednoj deceniji

[hazard]

ne govorim o dimenziji nego o ceni razvoja i nabavke a narocito radjenja softvera...cip koji je u smartfonu nikada ne bi smeo da koristis za putovanje u svemir (bez obzira na njegovu racunarsku jacinu) jer bi ti do Marsa verovatno 5 puta crko. Za svemirske (a i vojne) svrhe rade se posebni racunari i softveri u malim serijama (bar se tako radi ako oces da budes siguran u njihovu pouzdanost) i ne mozes tek tako da poredis trendove u potrosackoj elektronici sa projektima za svemir i vojsku...drugim recima cip koji ide u satelit ne kosta 5$ kao onaj sto je usao u smartfon ili 50$ kao onaj sto je usao u PC.Takodje ako ja pravim elektroniku za svemirski sistem (ili bilo sta za sta je potrebna visoka pouzdanost) verovatno necu koristiti najnoviju ili najsveziju tehnologiju vec nesto sto je 1 ili 2 generacije "starije" jer je to "isprobana" tehnologija cije se mane & prednosti dobro poznaju, drugim recima dobro je "karakterizovana". Jedan od vrlo popularnih cipova za svemirske namene (BAE RAD6000) je 32bitni procesor koji radi na maks. 33 MHz tako ne stoji bas opaska da NASA koristi ono sto ce Intel ili AMD da izbace za 10 godina - pre je obrnuto, NASA koristi ono sto su Intel i AMD (u smislu arhitekture procesora) izbacili pre 10 godina.A kako se vidi iz gornjeg RAD6000 pamfleta nije dovoljno da imas samo obican cip u nekakvoj kutiji koja stiti od radijacije, vec sam proces CMOS fabrikacije (pravljenje cipova) mora da bude takav da proizvodi cipove otporne na radijaciju. Dakle, nije standardan proces za pravljenje cipova za masovnu upotrebu = nije ista niska cena.Dalje kao sto si sam rekao potrebna dodatna zastita od radijacije u vidu raznoraznih kutija (sto dodaje tezinu) pa mora da postoji napajanje otporno na radijaciju (dodaje tezinu) pa moraju da postoje bar 2 napajanja za svaki komp. u slucaju da jedno crkne (sto opet dodaje tezinu). A podici 1 kg do orbite kosta nekih 10.000$, a to su samo troskovi lansiranja.Dakle itekako postoje razlozi zbog kojih u svemirske letelice idu 2 kompjutera (1 glavni i 1 backup) a ne 4-5 - ljudi valjda znaju sta rade, nisu pali s Marsa (i ako bi hteli tamo da odu :) )

Edited November 9, 2011 by hazard

[bigvlada]

Stara boljka, kontrola kvaliteta. Izgleda da je njima stvarno bolje da se drže Venere. btw. Hazard je potpuno u pravu što se tiče dizajna procesora za "tamo". Potrošačka elektronika ne bi preživela takvo maltretiranje. Russian Mars mission halted by glitch in low Earth orbitSTEPHEN CLARKSPACEFLIGHT NOWPosted: 09 November 2011 Russia's Phobos-Grunt mission, an audacious effort to retrieve samples from a Martian moon, is stranded in low Earth orbit following a successful liftoff Tuesday from Kazakhstan, according to Russian reports. The Zenit rocket blasted off with Phobos-Grunt at 2016 GMT (3:16 p.m. EST) Tuesday. Credit: TsENKI TV/Spaceflight Now Two rocket burns were supposed to propel the massive probe on a course toward Mars late Tuesday, but indications are the engine firings did not occur, according to Vladimir Popovkin, head of the Russian space agency. The revelation came after a successful blastoff on top of a Zenit 2FG rocket at 2016 GMT (3:16 p.m. EST). Phobos-Grunt and an attached rocket pack separated from the booster about 11 minutes later. Radar trackers did not detect Phobos-Grunt in the expected orbit after it was supposed to fire engines nearly three hours after liftoff. The burn was timed to occur over South America and out of range of Russian ground stations, which are limited in coverage over Europe and Asia. "We had a difficult night, and we could not locate the spacecraft for a long time," Popovkin said in a report by the Russian Novosti news agency. "We now have its position. It was found that the propulsion system failed. There was neither the first nor the second burn." Popovkin said the spacecraft may not have issued the command for a specially-designed rocket system to ignite, adding such an issue was foreseen during the development of the mission. He also suggested there could have been a problem with the craft's orientation and switching from sun-tracking to star-tracking, according to the Novosti report. A subsequent story in Novosti late Tuesday night said such a problem could be due to software or hardware issues. If it was a software glitch, the odds of recovery are good, while a hardware anomaly could have more dire consequences for the mission, the report said. A senior manager at NASA's Deep Space Network said there is no agreement between the United States and Russia for tracking of the launch sequence with the network's powerful communications antennas around the world. The antennas could be made available if Russia requests aid, the mananger said. Engineers are evaluating whether the spacecraft can be recovered in time to upload fresh commands to attempt more engine burns to aim for Mars. According to Popovkin, ground teams have three days to try to devise a new program for the burns toward Mars. Because it didn't fire its engines as scheduled Tuesday, Phobos-Grunt still has a full load of propellant to get to Mars if engineers can find the cause of the problem and fix it. In a report by the Interfax news agency, Popovkin said he would not describe the mission as a failure yet. The Phobos-Grunt spacecraft before it was encapsulated inside the nose fairing of the Zenit rocket. Credit: Roscosmos After initially reaching an elliptical orbit a few hundred miles above Earth, Phobos-Grunt was supposed to fire its main propulsion unit twice, first to raise its altitude, then to inject itself on a trajectory to escape Earth. Neither burn occurred, meaning the spacecraft is probably still circling Earth at altitudes between 120 miles and 215 miles. The orbit was supposed to have an inclination angle of about 51.4 degrees to the equator. The first rocket firing was supposed to raise Phobos-Grunt's maximum altitude to more than 2,500 miles. A second burn would have accelerated the spacecraft beyond escape velocity, the relative speed needed to overcome the influence of Earth's gravity and head for Mars. Phobos-Grunt should have been on an Mars-bound trajectory at 0120 GMT (8:20 p.m. EST). The $163 million mission's propulsion system is derived from the Fregat upper stage, a hydrazine-fueled space tug that often places satellites in high-altitude orbits above Earth. The Fregat has never been used on an interplanetary mission before. The Fregat-based main propulsion unit was supposed to stay attached to Phobos-Grunt for course correct maneuvers and a critical braking burn to arrive in orbit around Mars in October 2012. After getting to Mars, the probe was supposed to jettison the propulsion unit and deploy China's Yinghuo 1 orbiter, which rides piggyback on Phobos-Grunt for the journey there. By early 2013, Phobos-Grunt was scheduled to approach Phobos and study the moon with remote sensing instruments, giving Russian scientists data needed to select a landing site. Using a laser altimeter and radar navigation sensor, Phobos-Grunt was expected to descend to the surface of the moon in February 2013. Because of the weak gravity field at Phobos, the probe must make a gentle landing with little margin for error. After scooping up rock with a robot arm and placing the samples in a canister, Phobos-Grunt's return capsule was designed to depart the moon and target a landing back on Earth in August 2014 with nearly a half-pound of soil. After sending its samples back to Earth, Phobos-Grunt's core spacecraft was supposed to remain on Phobos for a continued science mission for up to a year.http://www.astronomynow.com/news/n1111/09phobos/Samo da im i dalje držimo palčeve. Ako je Galileo imao sjajne rezultate iako mu se glavna antena nikada nije otvorila već je rezultate slao pomoću male, a japanci pored više problema vratili prašinu sa asteroida, valjda će i ovo uspeti da se iščupa iz orbite. U pitanju je industrija gde su katastrofe i dalje suviše česte.

[Indy]

Dakle itekako postoje razlozi zbog kojih u svemirske letelice idu 2 kompjutera (1 glavni i 1 backup) a ne 4-5 - ljudi valjda znaju sta rade, nisu pali s Marsa (i ako bi hteli tamo da odu :) )

Ako bi bilo 4-5, to bi onemogucilo scenario iz Odiseje 2001. Morali bi kompjutori medjusobno da se prvo poizubijaju, pre nego sto predju na astronaute. Mada nije iskljuceno da bi se udruzili u koaliciju protivu C-oblika zivota. Pa posle presudjivali ko je od njih glavni (zato bih ja definitivno ubacio barem jednog Maca i PC-a, oni ne bi ni za zivu glavu usli u koaliciju).PS. Meni cak ni ova ekspedicija na Mars ne radi na linuxu, pih.

[bigvlada]

OOO, vratio se Indi :)Još pokušavaju da ga upale na gurku.

[bigvlada]

Nuclear power generator hooked up to Mars roverBY STEPHEN CLARKSPACEFLIGHT NOWPosted: November 17, 2011 Engineers installed the plutonium power source on NASA's Curiosity rover Thursday, adding the final piece to the complex robot before its Nov. 25 blastoff to Mars. The Mars Science Laboratory's MMRTG power source. Credit: NASA/KSC The Multi-Mission Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator, or MMRTG, moved from a preparation building to the Atlas 5 rocket's Vertical Integration Facility early Thursday. The 99-pound device was lifted inside the building and inserted through an access door on the rocket's bulbous white payload fairing. Technicians placed the power source on Curiosity through an opening on the spacecraft's backshell, which encloses the rover and its landing system during the journey from Earth to Mars. It's a simple connection, according to David Gruel, manager of the mission's assembly, test and launch operations phase. "We have four bolts holding it on and we hook up the electrical connections," Gruel said. Once the MMRTG is all hooked up, the spacecraft will begin receiving its own power. The final power-up is scheduled for Friday morning, and it won't be turned off again. "It's really cool that when the vehicle is powered on [Friday] with the RTG that it's basically going to stay powered all the way through the mission," Gruel said. The attachment of the power source is one of the last steps to prepare the $2.5 billion Mars Science Laboratory mission for launch. The 197-foot-tall Atlas 5 rocket will roll to the launch pad Nov. 23 in advance of liftoff Nov. 25 at 10:25 a.m. EST (1525 GMT). Curiosity will streak into the Martian atmosphere, descend under parachute and touch down with an unflown "sky crane" architecture using a rocket pack and bridle to gently lower the rover to the surface. Landing at Gale crater is scheduled for August 2012. The mission will seek evidence whether Mars was once habitable for life. The MMRTG is the final piece to go on the spacecraft because of the hazards with the radioactive power system. But the unit is built with layers of protective shielding to contain the MMRTG's plutonium fuel through impacts, explosions and an unplanned re-entry back into the atmosphere. There's no threat of an atomic detonation from the Pu-238 aboard the Curiosity rover. A glowing pellet of plutonium-238. Credit: U.S. Department of Energy Steve Brisbin, Kennedy Space Center's associate director for center operations, said there is about a 1-in-400 chance of radioactive material being released in a launch accident. Even if plutonium does leak into the atmosphere, the health risk is low. "There would not be expected to be any health effect from a mishap from the launch of the Mars Science Laboratory," Brisbin said, adding someone exposed to released plutonium during launch would only see a small fraction of the annual natural dose of radiation from solar and cosmic rays. The Mars mission's plutonium generator consists of a nuclear battery that converts decay heat into electricity. It contains 10.6 pounds of radioactive plutonium-238 and solid-state thermocouples that convert the plutonium's heat energy into electricity, according to NASA. The MMRTG is provided by the Energy Department, which is responsible for procuring, storying and supplying nuclear material to users like NASA. Boeing Co. built the device. Nuclear generators have powered 26 U.S. space missions over the last five decades, enabling exploration of the sun, the moon, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune. NASA's New Horizons probe, another nuclear-powered mission, is traveling toward Pluto for an encounter in 2015. The Curiosity rover's MMRTG is a new generation of power source designed for use on planets with atmospheres like Mars, as well as in the vacuum of space. It also operates at power intervals of 110 watts, a smaller increment than previous RTGs. It measures about 25 inches in diameter and 26 inches long, according to a NASA fact sheet. Artist's concept of the Curiosity rover at Mars. Credit: NASA/JPL The Mars rover's generator will produce power over at least 14 years. The rover's baseline mission is expected to last approximately two years on the surface of Mars. The MMRTG's Pu-238 fuel is a non-weapons-grade isotope of plutonium, but U.S. stockpiles of the material are dwindling, alarming scientists planning missions to the outer solar system. There's currently not enough Pu-238 in the Energy Department's stores to supply a flagship probe to study Jupiter's moon Europa in the 2020s. The Energy Department does not disclose how much Pu-238 is left in its inventory, but a National Research Council decadal survey report issued earlier this year estimated 16.8 kilograms, or about 37 pounds, of the isotope were left over after the Mars Science Laboratory. NASA projected in 2010 it needs more than double that amount of Pu-238 through 2027, necessitating purchases from Russia and renewed production in the United States. Russia, which also no longer produces Pu-238, is demanding a more lucrative contract for the U.S. government to buy its plutonium. Efforts to restart Pu-238 production in the United States have met resistance in Congress. It would cost between $75 million and $90 million to reach full capacity in five or six years, according to the Energy Department. The Energy Department is sponsoring development of a more efficient nuclear generator that could fly in space as soon as 2016. The Advanced Stirling Radioisotope Generators require less Pu-238 to produce electricity, but they are more complicated and contain tiny pistons that could be prone to failure. Traditional RTGs have no moving parts, increasing their reliability.http://spaceflightnow.com/atlas/av028/111117mmrtg/

[Skyhighatrist]

One day left to rescue "Phobos-Grunt"

Just one day remains to rescue the Russian interplanetary station "Phobos-Grunt." According to a source in the space industry, when the ‘launch window’ shuts down after today, attempts to establish communication with the device may become meaningless. According to him, even if communication with the station is restored after November 21st, it will not be flying to Mars."Phobos-Grunt" was launched from “Baikonur” cosmodrome on the night of November 9, however, the propulsion unit failed to set it on course for the Moon, leaving it stranded on support orbit. Head of Russia’s Federal Space Agency Vladimir Popovkin said that "Phobos-Grunt" will hold out above the Earth until January. If the unit starts to fall, it is unlikely that the debris will reach the Earth, most probably burning up completely in the atmosphere.