Zemljotres od 9 stepeni Rihtera u Japanu, 11.03.2011

[Roger Sanchez]

Rodjere, ja sam naveo blog na kom pisu strucnjaci (ukljucujuci i energeticare-specijaliste). Znaci nisu u pitanju ti tvoji vraziji "opinjuni" (dosadan si sa time). Zasto je to smesno/zabavno sto se ja borim protiv FUD-a, nije mi jasno. Zaista ne vidim potrebu za tim tvojim pljuckanjem. Inace sam danas pratio tvoju aktivnost na ovom podforumu i zakljucio da hodas po samoj ivici, neukusno (ispod radara) napadajuci ljude za stavove koje iznose po nacionalnoj osnovi. Samo, uspevas u tome da budes malcice sofisticiran, pa to nekako promice forumskim vlastima. Mislim da si, uz svu svoju pamet i obrazovanje, jedna prilicno gnusna pojava.

Ti stručnjaci brane svoj opinjun. I sve fakte biraju i prezentiraju u skladu s tim. To je definicija opinjuna - izabereš situaciju, izabereš stav, i onda napraviš čeripiking polaznih pretpostavki, činjenica i implikacija.A što je fakat u ovom slučaju? (btw. ni ja ne vrištim da se NE Krško zatvori, a blizu mi je. Bio sam i u njoj na ekskurziji svojedobno). Fakat je da je radijacija nekontrolirano i havarijski prodrla u okoliš. Za sam koncept dizajna i sigurnosne parametre tehničke eksploatacije nuklearne energije to je ipso facto katastrofa. Ako misliš da nije, onda ne znam zašto bi postojao ikakav problem sa osiromašenim uranom u municiji, čije su toksične i radijacijske posljedice još puuuno manje i još manje znanstveno dokazane. Hell, Obama bi mogao oživiti i tactical njuks.Što se tiče yoyogija, koji broji bekerele, nadam se da će po zelenjavu, povrće, ribe i meseko ubuduće ići na green marketse i fishmongerije u Fukushima district. Uz reputaciju koju taj distrikt sada gradi, zahvaljujući piss-poor spektaklu koji im nije priredila Majka Priroda nego Gospodin Čovjek, kroz dugi niz godina trebat će im svaki kupac koji će brojati bekerele filigranskom preciznošću.Što se tiče završnih opservacija u tvom postu, prijavljen si po više osnova, od koje je prva i najvažnija ta što misliš (ovoga, zabluđuješ) da si sofisticiraniji od moderacije.

[kralj]

Uzgred, ko po tebi skreće priču sa cunamija na nuklearku? Ako su u mediji žedni krvi logično bi bilo da pohitaju tamo gde ima više krvi. Šta njih briga da li je cunami ili nuklearka. Pod ruševinama cunamija ima sasvim dovoljno leševa, ali možda ima i nešto sa čega treba skrenuti pažnju. Misliš da japanska vlada želi da skrene pažnju javnosti kako bi prikrila odgovornost za to što nije bolje zaštitila priobalni pojas od cunamija?

Bullseye!Najveci hajp oko nuklearne krize podigli su sami Japanci. Ono helikopterasko smrkovanje reaktora reda je velicine srednjevekovnog katapulta kojim bi se Gadafi stitio od Nato avijacije. Jedino ako su prethodno tu vodu ohladili u frizideru.Cunami je prirodna katastrofa. Ako hocete da ovo bude svojevrsna knjiga zalosti, nemam nista protiv. Daj da se zapljunemo, pa da pisemo negde drugde o Fukusimi. Ovde je vec postalo mucno svedociti bezobrazlucima koji imputiraju ravnodusnost prema 200k mrtvih.Yoyogi ne samo da nije u pravu, nego je svaka njegova tvrdnja dozivela fijasko. Bilo je i onih spektakularnih gluposti, bilo je i ovih hronicnih i letargicnih koje se pojavljuju u svakom postu.Kad smo kod Cernobila, moglo je i tamo da bude 0 mrtvih. Ti poginuli radnici su zrtvovani da bi kataklizmicnost bila relativno osujecena. Tako bi bilo i u Japanu. Tako je i sada. To sto ce ti radnici u sebi odneti u smrt posledice ovog kamikazoidnog angazmana, sto ce na smrtnoj listi kao uzrok stajati rak, a ne Fukusima, ne menja na stvari. Ne postoji radioaktivno zracenje koje nije stetno po zdravlje. Od Cernobila, Nagasakija ljudi, verovali ili ne i danas umiru.

[Yoyogi]

Yoyogi ne samo da nije u pravu, nego je svaka njegova tvrdnja dozivela fijasko. Bilo je i onih spektakularnih gluposti, bilo je i ovih hronicnih i letargicnih koje se pojavljuju u svakom postu.

Za koji dan ces videti da je Yoyogi bio u pravu, kao sto je i od pocetka bio.0 zrtava od Fukushime.Nula. Mozes da nadjes neke?

[ndjordjevic]

koliko glupave zatucanosti na ovom topiku, jezivo. kroz par godina kada skoci broj kancera i smrti izazvanih njim ovakvi neljudi poput ovog yoyogija ce da tvrde da to nema veze sa fukusimom i da i dalje ima 0 smrti izazvanih istom (na stranu sto se npr. objavili da su dekontaminirali tela dva radnika koji su nadjeni u elektrani mrtvi nakon par nedelja, recimo, ali sada ce ispasti da svi koji kazu da ovo jeste nuklearna katastrofa prvog reda likuju nad tim, pa skoro da tako nesto i ne sme da se saopsti yoyogiju koji vodi krstaski rat sa samim sobom).

[Frile]

... kroz par godina kada skoci broj kancera i smrti izazvanih njim ...

Kada skoči - gde?

[kim_philby]

histerija

Stevphen Shukaitis*Japan ? Fissures in the Planetary Apparatus*http://jfissures.wordpress.comWhile we are observing the new impetus of global uprising againstcapitalism and the state, the catastrophic situation is arising inJapan. Triggered by the earthquake and tsunami of maximal scale,Northeastern part of Honshu has been devastated by the increasing numberof losses and refugees, and the worsening nuclear disaster. The activityof the planet has shown not only its unequivocal nonhuman force but alsothe degree in which our societies and their apparatuses forged bycapitalism are relying on, merging with, implicated in and expandingover the planet in an extremely ominous manner. What the so-callednatural disaster is showing on this occasion is nothing but theimplication of the apparatus in the environment and its fatal effects.In this situation, we intend to translate, quote and analyze as muchinformation as possible from Japanese into English, and translate yourencouragements, comments, suggestions, analysis, proposals and anythingwritten in English into Japanese for the vantage point of the peoplestruggling there and everywhere.At the moment in Japan, the government is trying to make the situationlook as normal as possible, by veiling crucial information on the degreeof radiation and the calamitous condition of the reactors. This menacingsituation notwithstanding, it does not show any intension to terminateits pro-nuclear power policy. In accordance with the benefit of TEPCO(The Tokyo Electric Power Co), it is instigating temporal blackout inlarge areas outside central Tokyo, as if sending the message to thepeople: ?no nuclear power, no electricity.? It also makes tremendousefforts to isolate and contain the stricken areas and the increasingnumber of refugees, by mobilizing massive number of the Self DefenseForces, mainly for driving the business as usual of the capitalistoperations. Meanwhile the media is seeking to reproduce the image of asociety without dissent by orchestrating the campaign to ?Save Japan inUnity.? Some proxy intellectuals are inflaming patriotism even byawakening the nationalist sentiment from the fascist regime of the past.Nonetheless, as the contamination worsens and expands, residentforeigners have begun to leave Japan, and some Japanese who are able tohave begun their exodus to the west. The agony, anger and angst of thepeople, especially those who have to sustain their livelihood in Tokyoand northward therefrom, are unimaginable. It is a reminder of thestories from the Cyber Punk era in terms of dystopia finally realized.Meanwhile activists of anti-authoritarian vein are striving to beginvarious campaigns: a call for de-nuke general strike, a new anti-nuclearmovement, protests against the government and TEPCO, establishment ofrefugees? communes in metropolis such as Tokyo, Nagoya, and Osaka, andsending the ?People Rescue Troops? to the stricken north. A massmobilization is yet to be seen. Facing the imminent possibility of catastrophe, the people are alsoexpecting a long long term struggle, for survival and break-out of thepro-nuclear governance. Taking into consideration the situation inJapan, we find it necessary to establish a global network to create acurrent of both resources and persons in and out of Japan, accursed andconfined archipelago. To begin with, we are preparing a place forexchanging critical voices from there and elsewhere, to find a way outof the dystopian cul-de-sac, and create a path to undo and reorient thecourse of the world whose worst effects are manifest there at the moment.

[kim_philby]

i njeni neprijatelji...

From: david d'heilly <********t>Date: 3 April 2011 08:13Subject: Re: <nettime> Japan – Fissures in the Planetary ApparatusTo: Nettime <nettime-l@kein.org>Don't know if this is appropriate to post here. No, I am notinterested in getting into a protracted discussion about this. Butevery day we have to fend off this kind of crap, and I'm so sick ofit. C'mon nettime. You want to do media criticism? How aboutcritiquing the shitstorm of disinformation swarming the globe after3.11, rather than fostering it.Sorry Stevphen. I beg to differ.Three weeks ago, we in Japan were hit with an earthquake, and peoplealong the eastern seaboard were hit by a tsunami that flooded an areasix times the size of manhattan in a country the size of california.This dramatic event destroyed a lot of life, human and otherwise. Butit didn't *mean* to do it. As awful of a tragedy as this was, thisstuff has always happened in a country created at the merger of fourtectonic plates.What has been hard to stomach ever since been all of the drama queenstrying to make this, and the consequential failures in uneventfullyshutting down the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, all aboutthemselves. There is not a "catastrophic situation arising" in Japan.There is not an "increasing number of losses and refugees" (there havenot been diseases or fires that burned and created furthercasualties). Rather, assessing the full account of damages takes acertain amount of time, and the numbers have risen. We are coming to agrasp of the extent of what has gone wrong, and what can be done inthe immediate, mid- and long-term. There is nothing ominous aboutthis. Shit happens. It's full impact is not always known to its fullextent. So? Some of us move directly towards doing what we can toalleviate the suffering of others, others go off into some deliriouswet dream world in which all of their favorite conspiracies join intoone. If something like this helps you deal with your own emotionalstate, fine. Everybody here has some level of PTSD. But please let'snot confuse these things with reality. File "Fissures in the PlanetaryApparatus" under poetry.Time and again our mindshare, and the media-space is taken over by yetanother person who somehow claims that the government is "veilingcrucial information on the degree of radiation or calamitous conditionof the reactors". The IAEA is on location. Experts and representativesof pretty much every nuclear research organization in the world areinvolved. Yet amazingly these Glen Beck-like figures still somehowclaim to know something more... The experts are cautiously,constantly, reviewing and developing strategies, and contingencies. Idon't know what world you live in, but in my day to day things dosometimes go wrong. People knew there was a big one coming, but theygenuinely did not expect a 9.0. So things get out of hand. You try tokeep a cool head, keep appraised of a changing situation, and do whatyou can about calibrating your short, mid- and long-term strategiesfor dealing with it. That's all they're doing. What are you doing,Stevphe?A nuclear power policy is hopefully not something adopted in a moment,just as it is hopefully something not to be dropped in a moment. It'shard to imagine anyone with any sense of responsibility suddenlyabandoning a decades old policy with no real alternative in the middleof a crisis. I would hope that a lot of very public deliberation aboutenergy policy takes place once the current situation is under control.Can't imagine it not happening. But to do so now (or insist on thatkind of discussion now) would be an irresponsible exploitation of thecrisis.There have been no blackouts of large sections of tokyo. In fact, ofthe 23 central wards, the only one with any kind of regular blackoutshas been in Koto City, and the reason for their 90 minute outages hasmostly to do with the fact that there are fewer major manufacturingcenters in Koto-ku, and so it was decided on a more-or-less consensualbasis that this is would be the logical place for that to happen.Otherwise, Greater Metropolitan Tokyo, all 36.7 million of us, havebeen amazingly resilient about cutting non-essential power, making alot of other early estimates for blackouts completely unnecessary.Many factories had back-up caloric generators as a matter of policy.It's worse on the air, but business goes on, and all basic amenitiesare functioning. But given that this is the reality, it's hard toimage how this could be construed as some kind of hostage takingpromotion of nuclear power. How could you not know this? Are you evenin Japan? Yes, a great number of foreigners abandoned Tokyo. Almostimmediately. You can't blame anyone for doing whatever they see asnecessary to protect their loved ones, but the lines were prettyclearly divided by nationality (7 of every 10 french persons in Japanleft, for example), so one also imagines that the various informationsources, and "common sense" at home had a lot to do with theircommunal, rather than individual, decisions to leave. People withaccess to Japanese information on-line (=who can read Japanese, andverify data for themselves), for example, tended to stick around.The containment of stricken areas has been in accordance withinternational law and common sense. (Again, no, there is no"increasing" number of refugees. They don't multiply in the moonlight,you know.) The number of Self Defense Forces, massive or not, is asmany as could be alloted to the task of helping these people out. Idon't see the problem with trying to get as much logistical help intostricken areas as possible, and I find it beyond cynical to state thatthis is "mainly for driving the business as usual of the capitalistoperations". What would you have them do? A lot of people, SDF andotherwise, are engaged in the business of getting these people warmand safe shelter and food, and yes, getting them back to the livesthat they chose to live before the disaster, including doing jobswhich make them self-sustaining, rather than living off of the goodwill of others. But you apparently have a problem with that.I would say that yes, there probably is a concerted effort to avoidpanic and give the impression that we're all pitching in to help eachother in the media. Again. Your advice is that we do exactly what,now? Yes, the a national crisis necessarily will carry some sentimentsof nationalism with it (one of the Tokyo mayoral candidates ran on aplatform of "expel the foreigners", a slogan from the last days ofEdo, and the Boshin wars, but he was roundly belittled in the media.We'll have the number of votes he received in a few days. That shouldbe a good enough indication of nationalism, don't you think?), butthose people are always around. I've seen no analysis that there is anincrease in nationalist sentiment, or other aspects that couldpossibly be tied to the fascist themes of the 1930s. The tea party inamerica, for example, is far nastier to immigrants and women andteachers, etc. than what anyone here is saying or introducing intopolicy.And finally, pardon my French, but *fuck you*. Japan is not an"accursed and confined archipelago". We have had a couple of verylarge natural disasters. That sucks, but we're getting on with things.We're currently in the middle of bad shut down of a nuclear powerplant. Again, that sucks. But the only feral zombies running aroundtokyo eating people's brains are people like you, Stevphen. Most of usare busy with getting people out of harm's way and back to self-determined existences, and then will move on to public forums and thedemocratic development of clear-headed consensus about everythinglearned from the crisis and what to do next to make a better life forour children. The last thing we need is more drama queens creating astigma around us and our lives so that they can feel self-important.Oh damn! I just wasted another :30 minutes on one of them.

[Agni]

Barry Brook je profesor elitnog australijskog univerziteta mladji od mene sa 3 objavljene knjige i preko 150 objavljenih naucnih radova.

Sto se ovog konkretnog slucaja tice, dakle procene rizika i stete u Fukujami, misljenje profesora koji pripada fakultetskoj jedinici "Ecology & Evolutionary Biology, i koji pise clanke o "Ecological correlates of extinction proneness in tropical butterflies", relevatno je koliko i misljenje profesora lingvistike sa istog univerziteta.

Argument from authority (also known as appeal to authority) is a fallacy of defective induction, where it is argued that a statement is correct because the statement is made by a person or source that is commonly regarded as authoritative. The most general structure of this argument is: Source A says that p is true. Source A is authoritative. Therefore, p is true.

[Muwan]

Misliš da japanska vlada želi da skrene pažnju javnosti kako bi prikrila odgovornost za to što nije bolje zaštitila priobalni pojas od cunamija?

Diskusije radi, na koji način se bolje štiti priobalni pojas od plimnog talasa visine 20 metara? Šta je trebalo da urade, da duž čitave istočne obale podignu zid visine 30 metara i dubine nekih desetak, kako bi im antinuklearni lobi sjahao sa grbače nakon kataklizme koja se dešava jednom u hiljadu godina i koja bi svaku drugu zemlju ostavila nivelisanu uzduž i popreko (sve sa nuklearkama, ako ih imaju)?Sa jedne strane, jeste neozbiljno uzimati nula žrtava kao argument, budući da se od radijacije umire decenijama a ne samo u trenutku kada izadje. Međutim, ovo antinuklearno navijanje da se već dovoljno ozbiljna situacija pretvori u mega eksploziju sve sa nuklearnom pečurkom i opustelim ulicama Tokija, još je odvratnije i bljutavije. Ovo patetično zatvaranje nuklearnih reaktora po Evropi neću ni da pominjem. A tek kada krenu predizborne kampanje, bacaćemo peglu svaki dan od antinuklearne "argumentacije".Onako usput, predlažem svakom ljutom protivniku nuklearne energije u Srbiji, da na kratko poseti površinske kopove Kolubare (od koje se dobija 50% struje za Srbiju), baci jedan pogled na planine jalovine koju vetar romantično raznosi okolo, i raspita se po okolnim selima o kvalitetu zemljišta i vazduha. Zanima me šta osim džinovskih dimnjaka termoelektrana naš vrli antinuklearni lobi ima da ponudi čovečanstvu?

[borris_]

Reaktore jos niko nije zatvorio. Njemci su najavili zatvaranje reaktorima kojima je istekao rok trajanja (htjeli su da produze rok trajanja inace).

Edited April 3, 2011 by borris_

[Muwan]

Patetično je to što koriste Fukušimu kao argument za bilo šta što rade ili planiraju da urade sa nuklearnim reaktorima u Evropi. Reaktori u Fukušimi nisu nastradali zbog starosti ili bilo kakvog tehničkog felera, već usled prirodne kataklizme kakva Evropu neće nikada zadesiti. Time je svaka priča o evropskim reaktorima u kontekstu Fukušime lišena bilo kakvog osnova.

[Weenie Pooh]

Diskusije radi, na koji način se bolje štiti priobalni pojas od plimnog talasa visine 20 metara? Šta je trebalo da urade, da duž čitave istočne obale podignu zid visine 30 metara i dubine nekih desetak, kako bi im antinuklearni lobi sjahao sa grbače nakon kataklizme koja se dešava jednom u hiljadu godina i koja bi svaku drugu zemlju ostavila nivelisanu uzduž i popreko (sve sa nuklearkama, ako ih imaju)?Sa jedne strane, jeste neozbiljno uzimati nula žrtava kao argument, budući da se od radijacije umire decenijama a ne samo u trenutku kada izadje. Međutim, ovo antinuklearno navijanje da se već dovoljno ozbiljna situacija pretvori u mega eksploziju sve sa nuklearnom pečurkom i opustelim ulicama Tokija, još je odvratnije i bljutavije. Ovo patetično zatvaranje nuklearnih reaktora po Evropi neću ni da pominjem. A tek kada krenu predizborne kampanje, bacaćemo peglu svaki dan od antinuklearne "argumentacije".Onako usput, predlažem svakom ljutom protivniku nuklearne energije u Srbiji, da na kratko poseti površinske kopove Kolubare (od koje se dobija 50% struje za Srbiju), baci jedan pogled na planine jalovine koju vetar romantično raznosi okolo, i raspita se po okolnim selima o kvalitetu zemljišta i vazduha. Zanima me šta osim džinovskih dimnjaka termoelektrana naš vrli antinuklearni lobi ima da ponudi čovečanstvu?

Potpis za sva tri pasusa, ali u vezi sa drugim - najgora stvar koja se može uraditi kad naiđeš na neargumentovano medijsko dizanje panike je da ga linkuješ gde stigneš, uz svoj podsmešljivi komentar/demanti ispod. Potpuno je kontraproduktivno, posebno kad se to radi ovako neuko i histerično kako to radi Yoyogi, sa etiketiranjima i dvonedeljnim poluraspadom plutonijuma.Kad mediji histerišu, na to se najbolje odgovara ili ignorisanjem, ili ako baš mora, koherentnim i konciznim navođenjem argumenata. Mislim da je Indy postavio link do journalism hall of shame, vredi ga ponoviti.

[borris_]

Patetično je to što koriste Fukušimu kao argument za bilo šta što rade ili planiraju da urade sa nuklearnim reaktorima u Evropi. Reaktori u Fukušimi nisu nastradali zbog starosti ili bilo kakvog tehničkog felera, već usled prirodne kataklizme kakva Evropu neće nikada zadesiti. Time je svaka priča o evropskim reaktorima u kontekstu Fukušime lišena bilo kakvog osnova.

Zar nisu trebali biti ugaseni 2008.?

[Muwan]

Zar nisu trebali biti ugaseni 2008.?

Neka su trebali biti ugašeni i 1998. Oni naprosto nisu eksplodirali usled prekomerne upotrebe niti zbog toga što ih je rđa pojela od starosti. Desila se ogromna, teško zamisliva a kamoli u dizajniranje nuklearnih reaktora ugradljiva katastrofa. Uopšte mi nije jasno kakav je to argument kada nuklearna elektrana pretrpi 9 rihtera i 20 metara cunamija, i onda neko kaže: "Ti reaktori je trebalo da budu zatvoreni pre dve godine!"

[kapetanm]

Šta bi se pod istim okolnostima desilo da su bili zatvoreni ?