Zemljotres od 9 stepeni Rihtera u Japanu, 11.03.2011

[bigvlada]

niko ih nije pitao a kako će pobogu da nadomeste energiju dobijenu iz NE? Ugalj otpada u startu. Šta ostaje? Vetar ? Ne budimo smešni.

Podkritični torijumski reaktor sa akceleratorom čestica, bez upotrebe uranijuma ili plutonijuma; prelazno rešenje do D-D i D-T fuzionih reaktora. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_amplifier

[dekss]

Da, tačno. Čuo sam da Nemci trenutno grade deset takvih reaktora.A, evo i jedna zanimljiva animacija:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBZGH3yieLc

Edited March 15, 2011 by dekss

[Anduril]

Poceo je blame game izmedju Tepco-a i japanske vlade. To je najjasniji znak da nisu kontrolisali situaciju. Americka vojska je intervenisala kad je izbila vatra u reaktoru br.4 gde su goreli potroseni radioaktivni stubovi. To je bio i glavni izvor povecane radijacije. Sada radijacija drasticno pada.Ova epizoda pokazuje da kompanijama u ovakvim slucajevima nikad ne treba ostaviti opsti interes na cuvanje (kao ni uopste) jer oni nemaju opsti interes - samo zataskavanje, potplacivanje vlada i kontrolnih agencija da bi ostvarili sto veci profit na stetu drugih. Zato bi trebalo ove tzv. menadzere dovuci pred sud i naplatiti im ne samo iz profita/imovine kompanije (rasprodaja i njeno zatvaranje gde bi bili osisani i investitori)) nego i iz njihove licne imovine da ne ostanu bez icega a to uvesti kao svetsku praksu. Prilicno sam siguran da onda neke velike kontrole ne bi moralo ni biti jer bi sami sebe kontrolisali od straha da preko noci izgube sve. Ovako, oni ce se povuci pognute glave i izmigoljiti negde na nekim karibskim ostrvima daleko od radijacije i uzasa koji su izazvali. Secam se jos onog CEO-a BP-a koga su zalili jer je morao da ode - morbidno jer je on trebao da plati i iz svog dzepa sta se dogodilo a ne samo kompanija.P.S. Pogledajte simulaciju strujanja vazduha za sledece dane.

Edited March 15, 2011 by Anduril

[dekss]

Poceo je blame game izmedju Tepco-a i japanske vlade. To je najjasniji znak da nisu kontrolisali situaciju. Americka vojska je intervenisala kad je izbila vatra u reaktoru br.4 gde su goreli potroseni radioaktivni stubovi. To je bio i glavni izvor povecane radijacije. Sada radijacija drasticno pada.Ova epizoda pokazuje da kompanijama u ovakvim slucajevima nikad ne treba ostaviti opsti interes na cuvanje (kao ni uopste) jer oni nemaju opsti interes - samo zataskavanje, potplacivanje vlada i kontrolnih agencija da bi ostvarili sto veci profit na stetu drugih. Zato bi trebalo ove tzv. menadzere dovuci pred sud i naplatiti im ne samo iz profita/imovine kompanije (rasprodaja i njeno zatvaranje gde bi bili osisani i investitori)) nego i iz njihove licne imovine da ne ostanu bez icega a to uvesti kao svetsku praksu. Prilicno sam siguran da onda neke velike kontrole ne bi moralo ni biti jer bi sami sebe kontrolisali od straha da preko noci izgube sve. Ovako, oni ce se povuci pognute glave i izmigoljiti negde na nekim karibskim ostrvima daleko od radijacije i uzasa koji su izazvali. Secam se jos onog CEO-a BP-a koga su zalili jer je morao da ode - morbidno jer je on trebao da plati i iz svog dzepa sta se dogodilo a ne samo kompanija.P.S. Pogledajte simulaciju strujanja vazduha za sledece dane.

Kao da je potreba ova epizoda da se pokaže da je ovo tačno. To je jasno kao dan.A kako se onda to uklapa u liberalističke ekonomske ideje?

[Eraserhead]

Kao da je potreba ova epizoda da se pokaže da je ovo tačno. To je jasno kao dan.A kako se onda to uklapa u liberalističke ekonomske ideje?

Savršeno dobro jer nije na kompanijama da imaju odgovornost za "opšte dobro", za to postoje vlade koje biraju građani. U nekim drugim sistemima gde vlada rukovodi kompanijama ta podela posla ne funkcioniše, naravno na štetu "opšteg dobra".

[Anduril]

Kao da je potreba ova epizoda da se pokaže da je ovo tačno. To je jasno kao dan.A kako se onda to uklapa u liberalističke ekonomske ideje?

Nemam nameru da teoretisem o ovome sa tobom na ovom topiku jer je neukusno. Japan, Tepco i velike japanske kompanije uopste su jedan od primera korporativnog uredjenja vec vise decenija unazad gde jedna ruka pere drugu, gde se problemi zataskavaju itd. Dakle, susta suprotnost onome sto bi bilo pozeljno u svakom otvorenom drustvu gde svako placa za svoje greske i rizike. Nije ovo prvi put da postoje problemi u Japanu sa elektranama (bilo je vec slucajeva sa poginulima i ozracenima), samo sto niko licno od menadzera nije platio za nesto nego se svi skrivaju iza korporativnog sistema. Kad je bio problem sa bankama, ista stvar - niko ne odgovara svojim licnim imetkom nego samo korporativnim (tj. musterije i investitori) ili jos bolje - poreski obveznici i potrosaci koji na kraju placaju najveci danak.

[dekss]

Savršeno dobro jer nije na kompanijama da imaju odgovornost za "opšte dobro", za to postoje vlade koje biraju građani. U nekim drugim sistemima gde vlada rukovodi kompanijama ta podela posla ne funkcioniše, naravno na štetu "opšteg dobra".

To neme veze jedno s drugim.Ako će vlada da radi za "opšte dobro" može to da radi upravljala ili ne upravljala kompanijama. Trebalo bi biti po defaultu da vlada radi za to opšte dobro, ali nije na žalost. Ali zato jeste definitivno da kompanija radi za uski interes vlasnika, tj za povećanje profita. Ali evo čak i u Japanu u "najkomunističkijoj od svoh država" (parafrazirao sam yoyogijeve reči) to "opšte dobro" nije baš tako sveto, što će reći: idealan sistem (gledano iz ugla, po peti put: "opšteg dobra") jednostavno ne postoji. Ili drugim rečima nije to čak ni liberalni kapitalizam - čisto da se ne lažemo.

[Miralem]

filozofija koje se nijedan kafanski sto, ni onaj sa kariranim stolnjakom i rupama od cigareta, ne bi postideo.

[duma]

Ova epizoda pokazuje da kompanijama u ovakvim slucajevima nikad ne treba ostaviti opsti interes na cuvanje (kao ni uopste) jer oni nemaju opsti interes - samo zataskavanje, potplacivanje vlada i kontrolnih agencija da bi ostvarili sto veci profit na stetu drugih.

Čoveče, ti za par dana od zagovornika privatizacije državnih institucija preraste u protivnika privatizacije svega što je javni interes. Ovo što boldovano moglo bi se preneti i na većinu javnih preduzeća(ona koja su po prirodi monopolisti). To su naprimer vodovodi, toplane, EPS, ...Nuklearke su naravno posebna priča, jer je šteta koju mogu da naprave ogromna. Nije mnogo bolje ni sa fabrikama hemijske industrije. Posle ovog što se desilo Srbija definitivno treba da odustane od pomisli da pravi nuklearke. Kod nas je zanemarljiva verovatnoća da se desi ovakav zemljotres, ali bi bezbednost bila na takvom nivou da bi i onaj koji je potresao Kraljevo mogao da napravi katastrofu.

[dekss]

Nemam nameru da teoretisem o ovome sa tobom na ovom topiku jer je neukusno. Japan, Tepco i velike japanske kompanije uopste su jedan od primera korporativnog uredjenja vec vise decenija unazad gde jedna ruka pere drugu, gde se problemi zataskavaju itd. Dakle, susta suprotnost onome sto bi bilo pozeljno u svakom otvorenom drustvu gde svako placa za svoje greske i rizike. Nije ovo prvi put da postoje problemi u Japanu sa elektranama (bilo je vec slucajeva sa poginulima i ozracenima), samo sto niko licno od menadzera nije platio za nesto nego se svi skrivaju iza korporativnog sistema. Kad je bio problem sa bankama, ista stvar - niko ne odgovara svojim licnim imetkom nego samo korporativnim (tj. musterije i investitori) ili jos bolje - poreski obveznici i potrosaci koji na kraju placaju najveci danak.

Znam da nemaš. Nemam ni ja. Ali, zapravo o čemu se ovde i raspravlja? Lepi se gomila slika i klipova kataklizme, čupaju se kose i glumi nekakva solidarnost i zabrinutost: "jao, kako je ovo strašno!". Da ne ispadne da glumim da sam nešto bolji - nisam.Hoću da kažem: nema mnogo svrhe niti koristi ničijoj babi zdravlju. Zato sam se i usudio da odem malo off topic - izvinjavam se zbog toga. A da krivci, bilo gde i u bilo kojoj situaciji, treba da budu primereno kažnjeni, zar ima neko ko bi se usudio da se s tim ne slaže?

[Eraserhead]

Ali, zapravo o čemu se ovde i raspravlja? Lepi se gomila slika i klipova kataklizme, čupaju se kose i glumi nekakva solidarnost i zabrinutost: "jao, kako je ovo strašno!". Da ne ispadne da glumim da sam nešto bolji - nisam.

Ovakvi topici su vrlo informativni i iz mora informacija filtriraju ono najbolje. Meni koji nemam vremena da se psovetim temi jako koristi. Ne moraju diskusije na forumu biti filozofski sadržajne. Što se onog drugog tiče, sa nečim se slažem, ali sa nečim ne, međutim nastavićemo diskusiju u drugo vreme i na drugom mestu.

[dekss]

350 i kusur postova za 4 dana - ne čini mi se preterano filtrirano.Ali, svejedno, ne kažem da nema svoju vrednost. Samo sam opravdavao svoj odlazak u offtopic, ja prvi to ne volim.

[Аврам Гојић]

Ali, zapravo o čemu se ovde i raspravlja? Lepi se gomila slika i klipova kataklizme, čupaju se kose i glumi nekakva solidarnost i zabrinutost: "jao, kako je ovo strašno!". Da ne ispadne da glumim da sam nešto bolji - nisam.

nacelno OK primedba, pod uslovom da je tako. medjutim nije tako. kao i na vecini ostalih topica, i ovde ima jedno 4-5 forumasa koji su izuzetno upuceni u tematiku i koji relevantne informacije kace brze i od velikih informativnih sajtova. sto se tice empatije itd, ima ljudi koji na sve ovo gledaju kao na veliki blokbaster, drugi imaju neku mrvicu empatije, a treci zaista saosecaju. na kraju krajeva, mi smo jedna od zemalja u kojima je incidenca raka stitaste zlezde povecana posle Cernobila. imamo i izvestaca iz Japana, malo je quirky ali je nash.gledaj na ovo kao na play-by-play topic. u nekom trenutku, kada se stvari slegnu, pocece i rasprava za i protiv nuklearne energije.

[Yoyogi]

Cim sam video kako su se napalili na TV i katastroficne scene (ne razlikujuci nuklearke od rafinerija, vazno je da gori) , pa jos vise i vise, bas mi je leglo da je objavljen ovaj clanak na sajtu koji redovno pratim. Ima ih jos koji idu slicnom linijom, od drugih autora. Ovaj tip zna o cemu prica i jos to prica jasno.To sto se vidi na TV je senzacionalisticka tupanska kampanja. Kada se ovde na Forumu toliko plase na drugoj strani planete, kako je tek narodu u samom Japanu. Nije ni cudo sto je pocelo stekovanje robe i nestasice nekoliko osnovnih stvari (flasirana voda, toalet papir, baterije, kamperski gas).I kada vide u kakvom su drustvu - i EU politicari u Briselu gledaju istu TV i isto reaguju kao kokoshi - mozda je svetu lakse.Fukushima is a triumph for nuke power: Build more reactors now!Quake + tsunami = 1 minor radiation dose so farBy Lewis Page • Get more from this authorPosted in Physics, 14th March 2011 13:58 GMTAnalysis Japan's nuclear powerplants have performed magnificently in the face of a disaster hugely greater than they were designed to withstand, remaining entirely safe throughout and sustaining only minor damage. The unfolding Fukushima story has enormously strengthened the case for advanced nations – including Japan – to build more nuclear powerplants, in the knowledge that no imaginable disaster can result in serious problems.Let's recap on what's happened so far. The earthquake which hit on Friday was terrifically powerful, shaking the entire planet on its axis and jolting the whole of Japan several feet sideways. At 8.9 on the Richter scale, it was some five times stronger than the older Fukushima plants had been designed to cope with.If nuclear powerplants were merely as safe as they are advertised to be, there should have been a major failure right then. As the hot cores ceased to be cooled by the water which is used to extract power from them, control rods would have remained withdrawn and a runaway chain reaction could have ensued – probably resulting in the worst thing that can happen to a properly designed nuclear reactor: a core meltdown in which the superhot fuel rods actually melt and slag down the whole core into a blob of molten metal. In this case the only thing to do is seal up the containment and wait: no radiation disaster will take place1, but the reactor is a total writeoff and cooling the core off will be difficult and take a long time. Eventual cleanup will be protracted and expensive.In fact, though the quake was far beyond design limits, all the reactors went into automatic shutdown perfectly: triumph number one. Control rods slammed into the cores, absorbing the neutrons spitting from the fuel rods and pinching off the uranium-fission chain reactions powering the plant.However, the cores were still producing heat and radiation at this point: intermediate radioactive isotopes of caesium and iodine are created during normal running. They have short half-lives and decay to insignificant levels within days of a shutdown, but for that time the reactor will still produce a few per cent of the heat it puts out in normal running – and this is still a lot of heat. If it is not dealt with, it can eventually melt down parts of the core, though the resulting mess will not be nearly as bad as a runaway meltdown.Thus, even with the control rods in, the core still needs to be cooled for some days until the "residual" heating dies away and so power and water need to be supplied for this purpose. Backup cooling driven by diesels came on at all the plants without trouble, despite the way-beyond-spec hit from the quake: triumph number two.For a few hours all was well. Then the tsunami – again, bigger than the plant had been built to cope with – struck, knocking out the diesel backups and the backup diesel backups.Needless to say, this being a nuclear powerplant, there was another backup and this one worked despite having been through a beyond-spec quake and the tsunami. Battery power cut in and the cores continued to be cooled, giving the plant operators some hours of leeway to bring in mobile generators: triumph number three.Unfortunately it appears that the devastation from the quake and tsunami was sufficient that mobile power wasn't online at all the sites before the temperatures inside the cores began to climb seriously. At this stage the cores are sitting immersed in cooling water inside their terrifically thick and strong airtight containment vessels. As the water is not being circulated and cooled any more, it is getting hotter, turning to steam, and pressure is building inside the vessel. Left alone the vessel interior will presently become hot enough to start melting the tough alloy casings of the fuel rods, at which stage the interior will fill with long-half-life radioactive materials – and will thus have to be buttoned up tightly and abandoned for a long time, creating a mess.Letting off some steamWhat the Japanese powerplant chiefs decided to do at this point is vent off some of the steam from the containment vessels in order to cool the interiors down. At this point the steam is not contaminated with any long-lived nasties, but it has been well soaked in neutrons and thus it contains quite a lot of very short-lived (half-life measured in seconds) radioactive materials such as Nitrogen-16. Within a minute of being released, such steam is just steam again, but it is radioactive when it comes out.This is obviously emotive stuff – radioactive gas leaks – even if it is harmless to anyone beyond the plant fence (the workers inside are in protected control rooms or wearing protective gear).So the situation is being managed and the cores are being kept cool by venting off steam. Power is restored by mobile generators to most of the reactors and soon their cooling systems are running again for a smooth shutdown.But in two cases the normal cooling systems couldn't be made to run again even once mobile power arrived on scene. The normal systems use very pure de-mineralised water, and the plant operators couldn't get a supply of this running again at these reactors. Water adulterated with other things – such as sea salt – is less desirable, as its use means that other radionuclides are generated in small quantities: also it will cause a lot of expensive equipment corrosion and so forth.But after some time, water levels inside the three cores sank low enough from the venting that hot bits of core started to stick up out of the liquid. These parts were then being kept cool much less effectively, and trace amounts of the caesium and iodine isotopes powering the residual heat reaction were detected in the air outside the plants. This first happened on Saturday.The plant operators thus bit the bullet and fell back on yet another backup system: they injected seawater mixed with boric acid (liquid control-rod material) into the cores. This meant a fair bit of expensive damage to the two reactors, and also that the steam emitted when venting would be slightly more radioactive due to the salt and other trace chemicals in the sea water.This is why the Japanese operators have chosen purposely to release the steam from these reactors, not into the atmosphere, but into the interiors of their reactor buildings. These too can be made gas-tight in order to contain leaks from the containment vessel, though they aren't terrifically strong and able to hold massive pressures.The idea was to hold the steam in the buildings for the necessary short periods until it was no longer radioactive at all before letting it out of the building – and then venting off some more steam into the building, so cooling the cores. Holding the steam in the buildings wasn't really necessary – more of a gesture than anything else – but it was done nonetheless.Unfortunately this decision has proved to be a PR blunder rather than a bonus. Steam which has been superheated as in a reactor core can break up into hydrogen and oxygen, which is naturally an explosive mixture. At Chernobyl, this actually happened inside the containment vessel and the resulting explosion ruptured the vessel, leading to a serious release of core radioactives – though this has had basically zero effect on the world in general nor even much impact on the area around Chernobyl.Under controlBut proper nuclear reactors are designed so that you can't get water breakup to hydrogen and oxygen inside the containment vessel, only outside it: triumph number four for the Japanese plants' designers. Thus the hydrogen explosions which subsequently took place, though visually spectacular, did nothing more than blow the roofs off the reactor buildings – the containment vessels and their systems remain unbreached and under command from the relevant control rooms. The risk of explosion was known and notified in advance: it was accepted by the plant operators and regulators in return for the very slight reduction in radiation exposure close to the reactor buildings.All reactors' temperature is now under control and the residual heat reactions inside them continue to die away; soon, no further cooling will be required. The three worst affected will cost more to put right than the other ones, having been cooled with the backup-backup seawater system and lost their roofs, but the process of sorting them out will not be a lot more onerous than a normal periodic refuelling. All the other affected reactors have achieved quite normal shutdowns, though nuclear safety being nuclear safety it will be some time before they can be fired up again.Radiation health effects have been pretty much zero. At times there have been heightened radiation levels inside the plants from short-life isotopes in the steam releases – sometimes enough that an unprotected person next to a reactor building might have sustained a year's normal dose from background radiation in an hour. This is not particularly terrifying, really – nobody is scared at the prospect of living another year on planet Earth – but it is being reported under scaremongering headlines. Another thing the weekend reporters have missed was the fact that all but tiny traces of the airborne radionuclides (from the salt in the seawater coolant) were disappearing before they could even cross the street; there is essentially no health hazard to people living nearby. Precautionary evacuations and tests were just that: precautionary.In fact only one person so far has sustained any measurable extra radiation dose above normal: a plant worker, according to the IAEA, sustained about 10 per cent of a normal year's background radiation dose. Other workers have been injured by the hydrogen explosions and the quake/tsunami, and one killed in a crane accident, but quite frankly being a nuclear powerplant worker at Fukushima has been pretty safe compared to just being an ordinary citizen in quake-hit Japan.So to sum up: all plants are now well on their way to a cold shutdown. At no time have their operators come even close to running out of options. No core has melted down and come up against the final defensive barriers: the safety systems did not come even close to failing, despite being tested far beyond what they had been designed to take. One person has sustained a small dose of radiation which need cause him no concern.The whole sequence of events is a ringing endorsement for nuclear power safety. If this – basically nothing – is what happens when decades-old systems are pushed five times and then some beyond their design limits, new plants much safer yet would be able to resist an asteroid strike without problems.But you wouldn't know that from looking at the mainstream media. Ignorant fools are suggesting on every hand that Japan's problems actually mean fresh obstacles in the way of new nuclear plants here in the UK, Europe and the US.That can only be true if an unbelievable level of public ignorance of the real facts, born of truly dreadful news reporting over the weekend, is allowed to persist.Spread the word. And if you doubt us on any of this, please read this excellent early description of the events, or follow the reports from the IAEA and World Nuclear News. Very few other channels of information are much use at the moment. ®1* There is an enduring popular myth suggesting that such a core would become so hot that nothing could resist it: being heavy, it would thus melt its way through the foundations of the reactor, through the planetary crust and notionally to the other side of the planet – the so-called "China syndrome". The idea that the core could burn through the base of its containment is about as credible as the idea that it would remain together in the planet's molten interior and then – having somehow done so and thus reached the centre of the Earth – then ascend back to the surface again at the antipodes.Clanak je dosao odavde, ima hot links na Cernobil (iz National Geographic, kako je danas tamo, zivot buja) i jos neke koga zanima.

[Hobbit slayer]

Mozda neces verovati, Japance to malo zanima. Imaju oni svoje zemljotrese, svaki dan. Seizmoloski Zavod kaze , 300 dnevno.Treba tu biti veliki mudonja koji ce Japancima da objasni i kaze sta je zemljotres.Kao da Japanac dodje da Srbima objasni sta je chorbast pasulj i kako da ga kuvaju.

Upravo tako, danas sam prichao sa malom japankom (tinejdzerkom) na shljaci kojoj familija zhivi u Tokiju... Uprkos svoj brizi za svoje nalblizhe, najvishe me je fascinirala njena pribranost i racionalno razmishljanje u vezi zemljotresa i posledica istog...