Peti oktobar na bliskom istoku i arapskom svetu

[Gandalf]

Uz dužno poštovanje, ja sam tražio da mi neko potvrdi ili opovrgne nabrojane beneficije u Libiji a ne da poredi Gadafija sa Hitlerom.

The rentier mentality is a “psychological condition with profound consequences for productivity: contracts are given as an expression of gratitude rather than as a reflection of economic rationale; civil servants see their principal duty as being available in their offices during working hours; businessmen abandon industry and enter into real-estate speculation or other special situations associated with a booming oil sector; the best and brightest abandon business and seek out lucrative government employment; manual labor and other work considered demeaning by the rentier is farmed out to foreign workers, whose remittances flood out of the rentier economy; and so on. In extreme cases income is derived simply from citizenship.”

[radisa]

Znam nekoliko ljudi (medicinara i vojnih lica) koji su ziveli i radili u Libiji neko vreme, mogu samo da kazem da su im iskustva potpuni uzas. Jos jednom, meni je muka kad vidim koliko jedan deo naseg naroda zeli hleba bez motike.

Da, tim pričama se ovde svi oduševljavaju...Ne shvatajući da to ne može...Bar ne doveka...

[Gandalf]

@Gandalf & pejsiMozda se to cak dogadja i Australiji zadnjih godina (u nekoj meri), sa izvozom ruda.

razni su oblici tzv. "rentier state". npr. Jordan: drzava koja nema nafte, ali od nastanka Mandata 1920-tih, (Trans)Jordan je u potpunosti zavisio od grantova/donacija i/ili novca koji (palestinski) emigranti salju iz zalivskih zemalja. zavisnost od grantova je "induced rentier state", dok je zavisnost od emigracije "private sector rentier state".

[Roger Sanchez]

Treba pitat Mister Noa, zemu mi, on zna ljude koji znaju ljude koji su bili dolje, taze..

[Indy]

Zanimljivo, o dvostrukim standardima, intervju koji je dao Rime Allaf - Royal Institute of International Affairs, London

Today we see for example the Gulf countries trying to help actively in suppressing the forces of Moamar Gaddafi the Libyan leader so far and helping the rebels while at the same time doing exactly the contrary in their own region you know with Yemen and with Bahrain.

+

...any moral high ground that the US and its allies could have had in responding to the wishes of the Arab people has been lost very quickly, precisely by taking such drastically different positions, one with Libya and one with Yemen and Bahrain and Amman.Which is why precisely we're seeing other regimes in the region getting away literally with murder and getting other you know support like the Saudi forces - there's already 1000 soldiers coming in to support the Bahraini regime - while other countries are being singled out and told that they cannot treat their people like that.

[Bane5]

Ima li neko upućeniji, da uradi check™ te liste?

broj 13 je laz - preko milion libijaca je nezaposleno i imaju vecu stopu nezaposlenosti od tunisa ili egipta npr.broj 8 je tacno - sigurno ovo nije tacan broj ali je on svakako visok u odnosu na susedne zemle. to se vise moze posmatrati kao jedan od uzroka protesta nego kao prilog u smislu vrednosti tog sistema.broj 4 je uglavnom laz - koliko znam drzava je gradila besplatne stanove ali se taj sistem ugusio u korupciji (visoka stopa korupcije prosto jede ceo sistem u libiji). netacno je da svi dobijaju stanove. u libiji je hiljade porodica bez svog stana ili kuce.ps. potvrdjujem ovo za hleb sto je napisao radisa. on jeste dosta jeftiniji nego kod nas, ali je i dosta je skuplji nego sto ovi tvrde. uzgred, imajte na umu da su tamo vekne hleba najcesce od 100 i 200 grama (ovo znam iz licnog iskustva) Edited March 27, 2011 by Bane5

[Muwan]

Znam nekoliko ljudi (medicinara i vojnih lica) koji su ziveli i radili u Libiji neko vreme, mogu samo da kazem da su im iskustva potpuni uzas. Jos jednom, meni je muka kad vidim koliko jedan deo naseg naroda zeli hleba bez motike.

Svakako. Zbog toga bi mi bilo lakše kada bi se pobrojane beneficije mogle odbaciti kao laži, jer u suprotnom moram pokušati da objasnim ljudima da je bolje raditi i zaraditi nego čekati da ti država nagura petrodolare tamo gde sunce ne sija. To dalje podrazumeva kontriranje argumentaciji tipa: "Baš me briga da li ću živeti u dikataturi ako će mi biti dobro; uostalom demokratija me je na prosjački štap oterala..." Ljudi uglavnom gledaju na stvari maksimalno pojednostavljeno i tu se malo šta može uraditi.

[Roger Sanchez]

Au, evo, smućkali su nešto.

Statement by NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen on Libya NATO Allies have decided to take on the whole military operation in Libya under the United Nations Security Council Resolution. Our goal is to protect civilians and civilian-populated areas under threat of attack from the Gaddafi regime. NATO will implement all aspects of the UN Resolution. Nothing more, nothing less. This is a very significant step, which proves NATO's capability to take decisive action. In the past week, we have put together a complete package of operations in support of the United Nations Resolution by sea and by air. We are already enforcing the arms embargo and the No Fly Zone, and with today's decision we are going beyond. We will be acting in close coordination with our international and regional partners to protect the people of Libya. We have directed NATO's top operational Commander to begin executing this operation with immediate effect.

The BBC's Chris Morris in Brussels says the mission to protect civilians was more sensitive because it involved debate about what exactly are legitimate military targets on the ground. There were disagreements notably between France and Turkey about political control of the mission, but they have now been resolved, our correspondent says. But the precise rules of engagement have not been revealed, he adds. Alongside the Nato command structure will be a separate, high-level committee of representatives of all countries taking part in the military action, including Arab states. It will give what one official called "broad political guidance.

[Bane5]

predstavnik libijske vlade veceras ponovio niz stvari na racun eman el-obeidi, ali je na kraju rekao da je ona pustena tj. da ce biti pustena. na pitanja novinara da li mogu da je vide, rekao je da to nije moguce.

Edited March 27, 2011 by Bane5

[Jozef K.]

Svakako. Zbog toga bi mi bilo lakše kada bi se pobrojane beneficije mogle odbaciti kao laži, jer u suprotnom moram pokušati da objasnim ljudima da je bolje raditi i zaraditi nego čekati da ti država nagura petrodolare tamo gde sunce ne sija. To dalje podrazumeva kontriranje argumentaciji tipa: "Baš me briga da li ću živeti u dikataturi ako će mi biti dobro; uostalom demokratija me je na prosjački štap oterala..." Ljudi uglavnom gledaju na stvari maksimalno pojednostavljeno i tu se malo šta može uraditi.

Pa recimo pokušati da se objasni da je daleko bolji sistem gde ljudi rade, plaćaju porez, a onda kroz razne mehanizme (gde je višestranačje samo jedan od mehanizama) pitaju i odlučuju kako se njihov novac troši. I onda se daju primeri zemalja koje tako funkcionišu od Nemačke, Skandinavaca, do USofA, a da su opozitni Iran, nekadašnji Irak, Saudi Arabija...gde diktatori crpe prirodna bogatstva, ne traže poreze, bace po neku mrvu, ali i guše svaku slobodu pre svega da bi i dalje crpili naftna, rudna bogatstva, neplaćajući rentu od koje bi svi imali korist.

[Tutankamon]

predstavnik libijske vlade veceras ponovio niz stvari na racun eman el-obeidi, ali je na kraju rekao da je ona pustena tj. da ce biti pustena. na pitanja novinara da li mogu da je vide, rekao je da to nije moguce.

Navodno je na prošloj konferenciji za štampu rekao da je prostitutka a danas je o bisera izjavio kako je uvredila ljude pominjući njihovo ime Vrhunac cinizma, ako te neko siluje nemoj mu pominjati ime, nije po Islamu...

[Bane5]

Pukovnik Miroslaw Al Gad-afi veceras utanjio. Ne svidja mu se rasplet dogadjaja i opominje Muamera da mu je drzava pred cepanjem i da moze da ostane bez nafte. Uzdrhtalo srce naseg dopisnika oseti se kroz napisane recenice - cak ni insistiranje na opustenom i mirnom zivotu u Tripoliju nekako ne stoji uz ovaj tekst.ps. Miroslaw Al Gad-afi danas nije oslobodio Misratu 11 put. To je umesto njega uradila Libyan state TV.

Edited March 27, 2011 by Bane5

[Indy]

"Baš me briga da li ću živeti u dikataturi ako će mi biti dobro; uostalom demokratija me je na prosjački štap oterala..."

Pa, nema sanse da bi im bilo dobro. Eto, ni samim Libijcima nije dobro. Onaj sa plasticnom puskom ide na prave metke, toliko im je dobro. Ono sto meni valjda i izaziva jezu je necija ideja da bi mu u takvoj situaciji, gde ti "drzava daje ono sto ti treba", bilo dobro. To me podseca na one mentole iz vojske kojima je tamo bilo mnogo lepo, jer ne moras nista da mislis. Dobijes svoj mesni narezak i tablu eurokrema i marsiras kako ti se rekne. Joj.

[aram]

a jeste "Joj" ali su ti takvi bili većina. a i sada su, svuda.

[Roger Sanchez]

Erdogan je dao intervju Guardianu.meso:

In an exclusive interview with the Guardian, Erdogan said that talks were still under way with Muammar Gaddafi's government and the Transitional National Council. He also revealed that Turkey is about to take over the running of the rebel-held Benghazi harbour and airport to facilitate humanitarian aid, in agreement with Nato.Speaking in Istanbul at the weekend, Erdogan said Gaddafi had to "provide some confidence to Nato forces right now" on the ground if there was to be progress towards the ceasefire the Libyan leader wanted and an "end to the blood being spilled in Libya"....Erdogan added: "There is a civil war in Libya and we have to bring that to an end."He had spoken to Gaddafi repeatedly before the air strikes and to the Libyan prime minister since, while Turkey's foreign minister was in close touch with the Benghazi-based opposition.It was crucial that contacts were maintained with both sides, he said. "Gaddafi wants a ceasefire, this came up when I was talking to the prime minister, but it's important for those circumstances to mature. It wouldn't be consistent to keep shooting while demanding a ceasefire."...He was at pains to rebut criticism in the western media over the jailing of journalists caught up in the long-running investigation into an attempted military coup and claims that the government has used the case to intimidate sections of the press."These criticisms upset us very much," he said, adding that a total of 27 journalists had been convicted and jailed for crimes, including membership of terrorist organisations, coup plotting and sexual harassment. "Would that be accepted as normal in your country?"

Isti nounar koji je napisao ovaj tekst je sastavio i opinjun, čime se podvlači razlika između njuza i opinjuna, ali i sklonost nounara sa opinjunom da se bavi njuzovima koji proističu iz opinjuna.Međutim, u zapjenjenosti opinjuna promiče mu jasna i dokaziva povijesna činjenica da je subalterniranje pod Mubarakom samo malo ostarjela i ružnija izraslina ''globalne sile'' pod Nasserom, što uključuje i gaženje Ikhwana i ostalih stranaka i vladanje u stilu izvanrednog stanja.

Most survive on a western lifeline, and the result across the region has been social and economic stagnation. There is a real sense in which, despite the powerful challenge of Arab nationalism in the 50s and 60s, the Arab world has never been fully decolonised.For Egypt, the historical pivot of the region and a global force under Nasser, the humiliation of its decaying, subaltern status under Mubarak could not be clearer.

Ako činjenice nisu u skladu s opinjunom, to gore po činjenice. :) Također, prenebregnut ćemo Gaddafija, Bashara al Assada, Libanon i sudanskog Bashira, jer se ne uklapaju u opinjun.