Grčka - enormni dug, protesti oko mera štednje

[vememah]

According to POLITICO’s Quentin Ariès, Tsipras has agreed to much of the creditors’ proposals, including the involvement of the IMF.

But if there is a deal, Greece is going to need some money immediately. The latest idea is that France, Italy or Germany could stump up a quick loan to Greece that could then be endorsed by the European Financial Stability Fund. That endorsement would need to be approved by the formation that gathers together the EU’s 28 finance ministers – fortunately, as it happens, they meet in Brussels on Tuesday.

http://www.politico.eu/article/greece-crisis-live-tsipras-parliament-referendum-bailout-reforms-eurozone-eurogroup-council-summit/#liveblog-entry-64352

[dragance]

Cipras i kompanija su veliki sarlatani, koji su se ponasali kao baje, sepurili se i blefirali, a u stvari nisu ni imali karte u rukama. Ona sprdnja sa referendumom je nesto nevidjeno, ne zbog referenduma (gde su se nadali da ce "da" pobediti, iako su se predstavljali kao poborci za "ne"), vec zato sto su 48 sati kasnije prihvatili jos gori dil.

 

Zato Nemci sa njima i brišu pod, pretpostavljam da bi ih pokazali samim Grcima da Siriza nisu onakvi kakvim se predstavljaju i da ih smene - sto je i glavni cilj EU.

 

A sad, skoro pola duga je golo govno za koje bi i Nemci sami trebali da snose veliku odgovornost i da zaborave/oproste bar toliko.

 

To bi bilo najpravednije.

[dragance]

 

According to POLITICO’s Quentin Ariès, Tsipras has agreed to much of the creditors’ proposals, including the involvement of the IMF.

But if there is a deal, Greece is going to need some money immediately. The latest idea is that France, Italy or Germany could stump up a quick loan to Greece that could then be endorsed by the European Financial Stability Fund. That endorsement would need to be approved by the formation that gathers together the EU’s 28 finance ministers – fortunately, as it happens, they meet in Brussels on Tuesday.

http://www.politico.eu/article/greece-crisis-live-tsipras-parliament-referendum-bailout-reforms-eurozone-eurogroup-council-summit/#liveblog-entry-64352

 

Bas ce Francuska da im daje lovu koju ni sama nema. Ovakav stav Francuske je vise pozicioniranje da mogu da zatraze pomoc kad njima zatreba i da ne budu optuzeni za licemerstvo.

[vememah]

Greek Debt Crisis: In Athens, Jubilation Gives Way to Dismay and Confusion

 

Tsipras supporters struggle to understand how new deal on table is tougher than the one they rejected

 

By MATINA STEVIS and  GEORGI KANTCHEV

July 12, 2015 6:15 p.m. ET

 

ATHENS—A week ago, Greeks partied in the streets after voting to resoundingly reject terms of a new European bailout. On Sunday, those same streets were filled with a dazed and confused populace struggling to understand how they were now faced with swallowing a deal even tougher than the one they had just snubbed.

 

In the summer heat in central Athens, groups of people gathered around televisions at cafes showing Sunday’s live coverage of talks in Brussels, where top Greek officials were scrambling to negotiate a last-ditch rescue. Like Anna Christoforidi, many viewers struggled to understand the strange turnabout that could result in the screws being turned even tighter as a condition for Greece remaining in the eurozone.

 

“People are starting to lose their minds,” said Ms. Christoforidi, a 37-year-old employee at a coffee shop, who would glance at the TV as she worked. “I’m so confused myself, I talk to all the customers, we have the news on all day, but I’m at a loss.”

 

What started as a shock move by radical-left Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras in the wee hours of June 27, when he pulled his negotiating team out of talks and announced a referendum, has since turned into a drama of Homeric proportions.

 

Mr. Tsipras promised to use Greek voters’ overwhelming rejection of creditors’ bailout proposals to bring home better terms and less austerity in exchange for a generous rescue package from Europe. He demanded debt relief from eurozone countries.

 

Instead, Mr. Tsipras drafted proposals more onerous than the ones the majority of Greeks had rejected, leaving those who backed him in the referendum scratching their heads.

 

“So I voted for ‘no,’ but in fact it meant ‘yes,’ ” Ms. Christoforidi said, sprinkling a cappuccino with cinnamon. “Is this some kind of joke?”

 

 

Others said they were relieved that the Greek premier was now pushing for some kind of agreement, even if it was worse than what the nation had rejected. Still, they were angry that negotiations were proving so tough.

 

“Look, Tsipras has completely messed up in the handling of this crisis,” said lawyer Vassilis Vlastos.

“I voted against the proposals in the referendum to help him get better terms, but now it seems even that wasn’t enough,” he said. “He’s done the deed, he’s gone back to the negotiating table to sacrifice more to keep Greece in the euro, and the Germans still won’t take it. They just want us out, no matter what.”

 

The impact of such confusion is huge, said John Dimakis, director at Athens-based communications consultancy STR, which conducts public-opinion research.

 

“An alarming proportion of the Greek public is showing deeply irrational behavior, and over the past few weeks we are seeing striking contradictions between what people say they want and how they vote or who they support,” he said. “How can we decipher their preferences when they have no rational basis?”

 

The uncertainty is also reflected in Greece’s political scene. The government, led by radical-left Syriza, effectively lost its parliamentary majority in the early hours Saturday, as several of its lawmakers voted against a bill to authorize Mr. Tsipras to take his fresh set of proposals to negotiations with creditors in Brussels.

 

Syriza’s so-called Left Platform—its far-left, anti-euro faction—abstained from the vote. In a cross-party consensus rarely seen in Greek politics, Syriza won support of the overwhelming majority of the opposition parties, garnering the backing of 250 parliamentarians out of 300.

 

That is unprecedented for a radical-left party, said Panteion University Prof. Gerassimos Moschonas of the massive support Syriza got from center-right and center-left opposition lawmakers.

 

“This can be explained by the historical context of the vote: the issue at stake was about Greece staying in the euro or not, so the europhile opposition parties supported Tsipras on a matter of principle for them,” Mr. Moschonas added.

 

Mr. Tsipras will likely accept support from other parties for the short-term to pass legislation attached to a possible bailout agreement.

 

But he is unlikely to stay in power for long amid accusations of betrayal from the left of his party, said two people with knowledge of the Greek premier’s thinking. It was more likely, they said, that he would soon seek a fresh direct mandate from the Greek people.

 

Meanwhile, Greece’s economy has descended further into the abyss, as the country enters a third week of shut banks, capital controls and suspended stock-market trading.

 

“Greece’s economy has effectively ground to a standstill,” said Themis Themistocleous, head of European investment at UBS Wealth Management, which oversees $1 trillion in assets. “And if Greece exits the eurozone, it may see another 10% drop in economic output.”

 

Greece temporarily shut its banks on June 29 to prevent its cash-strapped financial system from collapsing. It limited withdrawals at ATMs to €60, or $66, a day for each account. Greek officials over the weekend suggested that even if there was a deal, the restrictions might be left in place for months.

 

“During the tourists season, this is proving to be a death touch to the economy,” analysts at Citigroup said in a report released Sunday.

 

In Athens’s cafes, the fallout from the past week—in all directions—may be just beginning.

 

“I don’t recognize this kind of Europe that only talks about money and doesn’t talk about solidarity, or values, or European ideals,” said Costas Fyssentzides, a 61-year-old academic deep in conversation with friends. But he said he felt that, in the fray, Greeks last week might not have been told the whole truth.

 

“We’re not confused because we’re ignorant,” he said. “We’re confused because a lot of this doesn’t make sense.”

 

—Nektaria Stamouli contributed to this article.

 

 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/greek-debt-crisis-in-athens-jubilation-gives-way-to-dismay-and-confusion-1436739306

Edited July 13, 2015 by vememah

[vememah]

Dva problema još nisu rešena:

 

Despite working through the night, it seems negotiators have yet to resolve two major issues for any future deal, reports POLITICO’s Stephen Brown.

A Greek official said there were still two sticking points in the negotiations between Athens and its eurozone partners, involving the participation of the International Monetary Fund and the targets for Greek privatizations. Despite these differences, he said a compromise was still possible.

Athens objects to the IMF’s participation being a pre-condition for a third bailout agreement, the Greek official said. “The idea is for the IMF to be supportive of the European Stability Mechanism (the eurozone bailout fund). It’s a different situation asking for it to be a pre-condition for an ESM treaty,” said the official.

The Greek government also maintains that the €50 billion goal for privatizations included in the draft being discussed by eurozone leaders was way beyond realistic. He said €17 billion or possibly €18 billion was “the whole of the assets we can find,” and said the IMF had estimated proceeds from Greek privatizations at a much lower level.

“We are not being dogmatic or ‘lefty,’” said the Greek official, adding that the government was including every possible asset in the mix, including airports and utilities.

http://www.politico.eu/article/greece-crisis-live-tsipras-parliament-referendum-bailout-reforms-eurozone-eurogroup-council-summit/#liveblog-entry-64396

Edited July 13, 2015 by vememah

[vememah]

[vememah]

MMF ostaje:

Olaf Gersemann, business editor of German press, of Die Welt & Welt am Sonntag, cites his own sources when he reports Tsipras has failed in his attempt to have IMF supervision axed from any Greek plan. This was one of two sticking points for Tsipras.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jul/12/greek-debt-crisis-eu-leaders-meeting-cancelled-no-deal-live#block-55a3498ce4b07fc6a121fccc

 

Sad se glože oko privatizacije:
 

According to an EU official, Donald Tusk, Alexis Tsipras, François Hollande and Angela Merkel are currently negotiating over the fund that is to hold the Greek assets to be privatized. Merkel is insisting that it contain €50bn of assets, while Hollande is trying to build a compromise around a figure of €25bn.

http://www.politico.eu/article/greece-crisis-live-tsipras-parliament-referendum-bailout-reforms-eurozone-eurogroup-council-summit/#liveblog-entry-64411

 

Edited July 13, 2015 by vememah

[vememah]

French reporter Isabelle Ory tweets a damming comment about France’s influence:

“With friends like the French, you don’t need enemies” – [says] a Greek disappointed at France’s lack of influence in the negotiations.

http://www.politico.eu/article/greece-crisis-live-tsipras-parliament-referendum-bailout-reforms-eurozone-eurogroup-council-summit/#liveblog-entry-64427

 

[morgana]

sa utjerivanja u drahmu na utjerivanje imovine u kfw banku? kakva pregovaracka strategija.

 

edit, o tom luksemburskom fondu se izgleda vec dugo govori i planira u kontekstu grcke (i prije ove nove sojbleove ideje)

https://www.kfw.de/KfW-Group/Newsroom/Aktuelles/Pressemitteilungen/Pressemitteilungen-Details_203840.html

Edited July 13, 2015 by morgana

[Rick.James]

Napeto™ u Brisolu™...

[vememah]

Nakon završetka samita Cipras će izgleda tek biti u problemu, lako se može desiti da mu ostane manji deo Sirize.

 

Ministar rada Skurletis (Siriza) izjavio da očekuje izbore ove godine i dodao da vlada ima problem sa većinom. Uz to je naglasio "jasno kažemo: ovaj dogovor nije naš".
http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2015-07/griechenland-aktuell-rettung-grexit-eu-gipfel-live#

 

Portparol Sirizine poslaničke grupe Petrakos na Facebooku tražio od Ciprasa da napusti pregovore i vrati se kući: "Ne prihvataj ništa, vrati se. Nema drugog rešenja od novih izbora sa pitanjem o rascepu. Seti se referenduma i mandata naroda. Dole memorandumi.
http://www.focus.de/finanzen/news/staatsverschuldung/griechenland-krise-griechen-drama-tsipras-leistet-noch-in-zwei-punkten-widerstand_id_4811971.html

 

EDIT: Gotovo mrcvarenje:

 

Belgium’s prime minister Charles Michel has tweeted that a deal has been reached!

http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jul/12/greek-debt-crisis-eu-leaders-meeting-cancelled-no-deal-live#block-55a35e69e4b07fc6a121fce1

 

Edited July 13, 2015 by vememah

[morgana]

postignut dogovor.

[vememah]

Dakle ipak neki rezultat, postojala je opasnost da jedini rezultat bude najduži samit u istoriji:

 

Još potvrda od Tuska i Maltežanina Muskata:

Edited July 13, 2015 by vememah

[vememah]

Čeka se kzš Tuska i Junkera:

http://ec.europa.eu/avservices/ebs/live.cfm?page=1

http://video.consilium.europa.eu/

 

Edit: Počinje. Tu je i Dajselblum.

Edited July 13, 2015 by vememah

[Anduril]

Srećom pa nije, jer bi u slučaju još nerazumnijih i sve ostale zemlje bile izvan evrozone tj ova bi se srušila. 

Uostalom, ako je jasno da neće vratiti - što ne otpišu? 

Te priče o "poverenju" u Syrizu više ne piju vodu. Jasno je da se Šojble spremao na grexit puno

 

 

 

 

Upravo je ovo i najveci problem. Nemacka se ponasa kao gazda Unije a nije. Posto su u Evropi svi vec videli Nemacku kako gazduje bice jasna i reakcija na ovo povampirenje nemacke zelje da upravlja Evropom. I ne, to nije nikakva paralela sa nacizmom, samo je razuman odgovor na tezu "da je na mestu Merkelove neki zivcaniji tip Grcka bi vec bila out". Otkad to samo od Nemacke zavisi?

I opet, ne znam odkud ideja da trece davanje kredita nekome po superpovoljnim uslovima kada niko drugi na planeti ne bi predstavlja neko gazdovanje i razbijanje unije.

Ocigledan je problem u percepciji gde se od jednih ocekuje vecna solidarnost a od drugih totalna neodgovornost i nula solidarnosti.

Neodgovornost ce razbiti uniju a ne manjak solidarnosti koja je i dalje ogromna.

 

Grcku niko ne moze da izbaci iz evra ali i druge suverene clanice bi mogle da imaju "ponos" i odbiju dalje bacanje para. O kampanji kao teroristima i nacistima da ne govorim. Ovo je sasvim druga generacija Evropljana/kreditora koja je daleko najvise uradila za mir i prosperitet u Evropi u periodu od 60 godina, i tu niko ne zasluzuje takva prozivanja koja su deluju kao dinamit na javno mnjenje.

 

Btw. formalni otpis duga je nemoguc po nemackom ustavu i evro dilu gde stoji da clanice unije ne finansiraju dugove drugih clanica.

Zato Grcka mora prvo da izadje a EZ je verovatno tu spremna da pomogne Grckoj vise od same grcke vlade ciji su rezultati do sada katastrofalni. Stara boljka populista - zelje su im uvek u ogromnom raskoraku sa stvarnoscu i na kraju uvek udaraju zid.