Grčka - enormni dug, protesti oko mera štednje

[vememah]

apsolutno je moguće da je u većini...brojčano. 

 

međutim "nekoliko" uključuje Francusku i Italiju, dok je Španija, kako se čini, neutralna. I tu se, uz Nemačku, lista, što se tiče heavyweights, zaključuje. (ok, HOL je nekakav poluheavyweight, no to se više nego neutrališe pozicijom Washingtona). Suštinski, gledajući po realnoj moći država - pat pozicija. 

 

Pa nek moćne Francuska i Italija odobre bilateralne kredite Grčkoj ako im se ne sviđa nemački i finski stav. Nisu im Šojble i Stub zabranili da pomognu Grčkoj.

Edited July 11, 2015 by vememah

[MancMellow]

pa to će funkcionisati ovako - tokom noći će švabe pokušati da potkupe francuze usupcima u "krnjoj" EZ i uz verovatnu poruku: ovo je naš poslednji zahtev

[vememah]

Ameri stiskaju Fince.

 

Dim Rapidis @rapidis

#USA is pressing former Commissioner Oli Rehn to mediate & convince #Finland FinMin Stubb over veto, at least till ##EUCO tomorrow.

https://twitter.com/rapidis/status/619977993973297152

 

Šef SPD-a Gabrijel o situaciji i Šojbleovom predlogu:

 

The SPD continues to pursue the goal of keeping Greece in the euro zone, if the necessary conditions can be created. That is also the objective of the federal government. And above is currently being discussed in Brussels. The SPD places special emphasis on a common and coordinated approach with France. The Federal Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäuble proposal's for a temporary withdrawal of Greece from the eurozone is naturally known by the SPD. In such a difficult situation, every possible proposal needs to be examined impartially. This proposal would, however, only be realized if the Greek government would however have no better alternative.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11733260/Greece-news-live-Germany-readies-five-year-temporary-Grexit-plan-after-finance-ministers-fail-to-reach-agreement.html

Edited July 11, 2015 by vememah

[MancMellow]

Pa nek moćne Francuska i Italija odobre bilateralne kredite Grčkoj ako im se ne sviđa nemački i finski stav. Nisu im Šojble i Stub zabranili da pomognu Grčkoj.

 

Vidi, u nemačkoj evropskoj politici postoji jedna malo trajniji pokušaj: čvrst dogovor na Zapadu, odrešene ruke na Istoku. Svi ti "mehanizmi" su u finkciji nacionalne ekonomske politike. Slabiji evro nego da je marka ili neki Evro Nord, što pomaže izvoz, ali za to su neophodni ITA; ESP i POR u evru. Grčka je u tom smislu helpful, ali je ipak preveliki trošak te je treba eliminisati. 

[vememah]

Ma sve je to OK, nego to tvoje računanje je li jedan blok jači od drugog kao da će da ratuju nema smisla. Da ne misliš možda da će Francuzi ili Italijani zapretiti da će i oni izaći iz evra zbog Grčke? Za bailout je potreban dogovor svih ili skoro svih.

[MancMellow]

Ma sve je to OK, nego to tvoje računanje je li jedan blok jači od drugog kao da će da ratuju nema smisla. Da ne misliš možda da će Francuzi ili Italijani zapretiti da će i oni izaći iz evra zbog Grčke? Za bailout je potreban dogovor svih ili skoro svih.

 

 

Neće. Tu ipak dolazi do izražaja ono što sam odavno napisao - koliko je amerikancima stalo i kakva je njihova procena rizika disorderly grexita. Oni, zajedno sa ove dve zemlje, mogu da nateraju Nemačku, ali bi morali da vuku pretnje (recimo otežavanje nemačkog izvoza u US, recimo) za koje sam siguran da radije ne bi. Plus, što bi posle takvog, ili sličnog, lomljenja kičme, EU izgledala bitno drugačije. Uostalom, pregovori o TTIP su u toku (više-manje). 

Edited July 11, 2015 by MancMellow

[vememah]

FT-jev pregled, manje-više sve smo pokrili na forumu sem činjenice da je Berlin dostavio Šojbleov predlog drugim zemljama Evrozone.

 

Eurozone officials in deadlock over Greece

Stefan Wagstyl and Duncan Robinson in Brussels

Eurozone finance ministers have failed to end the deadlock in the Greek crisis after marathon talks over a possible third €53.5bn bailout for the near-bankrupt country broke up without agreement.

Following nine hours of tense discussions finishing shortly before midnight in Brussels, the 19-member group decided to meet again on Sunday morning for a renewed push to narrow the still deep differences between Greece and most of its creditors.

Eurogroup president Jeroen Dijsselbloem said: “It’s still very difficult but work is still in progress.” Luis de Guindos, the Spanish finance minister, said: “It could have been better, it could have been worse.”

The deadlock prolongs the uncertainty hanging over the troubled Greek economy and increases the risks that the country could be forced out of the eurozone.

In a sign of the growing seriousness of the crisis, all 28 EU leaders will meet later on Sunday for a summit that German chancellor Angela Merkel has said will be “decisive”.

While France has supported the radical Greek government’s latest bid to secure a deal, Germany has led a chorus of sceptics, raising doubts about Greek premier Alexis Tsipras’s ability to deliver the tough measures he has promised in his new plan.

The German finance ministry raised the possibility of a five-year timeout from the eurozone for Greece, according to a finance ministry position paper that leaked on Saturday.

The ministry declined to comment on the document, which was circulated to other eurozone members but not presented to the meeting. The paper proposed that either Greece rapidly put forward a far bigger reform programme than the one currently under discussion — or leave the eurozone for five years while remaining in the EU.

Negotiations were complicated by Finland, after the populist Finns party threatened to resign from the two-month old coalition government if a Greek bailout went ahead.

Greece had earlier cleared the first hurdle in its attempt to stay in the eurozone after the European Commission, European Central Bank and IMF gave a cautious welcome to Athens’ reform plans and gave the go-ahead for negotiations over a future rescue programme.

Before Saturday’s nine-hour meeting, Michel Sapin, French finance minister, praised the “courage” and “political determination” of the Greek government in winning parliamentary backing for negotiating a deal.

Mr Sapin’s optimism reflected the role Paris has played in recent weeks in trying to build bridges to Athens even after Greeks voted in last Sunday’s referendum against a rescue package very similar to the one Greece has now proposed.

But German finance minister Wolfgang Schäuble warned in advance that the talks would be “extraordinarily difficult”. He said debt relief, a major demand of the Greeks, was not possible under EU law and that Athens’s third bailout programme would have to be watertight in terms of the promised reforms and underlying forecasts. “We are determined not to put up numbers that everybody knows no one can believe,” said Mr Schäuble.

The German paper’s proposals included transferring E50bn of assets to an “external fund” for privatisation and European Commission supervision of the Greek public administration. A eurogroup official indicated that the paper showed the thinking of the Berlin finance ministry.

Finland, which sits firmly in the German-led sceptics’ camp, could not block a bailout on its own. Eurozone rules dictate that a majority of 85 per cent is necessary for a bailout if the “economic and financial stability of the euro area” is threatened. In effect, this means that while Germany, Italy and France can veto a rescue, smaller countries must club together to scupper such a plan.

However, a threatened veto from Helsinki could encourage other sceptics to speak out more forcefully.

Greece put forward a host of reforms earlier this week as part of a bid to win a new bailout worth €53.5bn over three years. Greek lawmakers overwhelmingly backed the proposals in a late-night session in Athens on Saturday morning, with pro-EU opposition parties coming to the government’s aid after a rebellion.

EU officials warned on Friday that the Greek proposals did not include the cash needed to recapitalise the country’s struggling banking sector, meaning that the total bill could reach more than €80bn.

Additional reporting by Eleftheria Kourtali in Athens

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/700688d6-27da-11e5-8db8-c033edba8a6e.html

[vememah]

Komentari sa iste stranice. Prvi:
 

As usual it seems that the adult in the room is Mr Schauble. Why is it that the others don't tackle the important questions of implementation and trust. Last time I looked at the proposals from Greece it contained the amazing proposition that action on tax avoidance and corruption would only be taken by the Greek Government as part of the overall bargain. Amazing. Does that mean that if there is not a deal they won't bother to deal with these issues? Why not legislate now and try to earn the trust of the creditors?

 

Je l' još neko uočio ovo boldovano ili je u pitanju pogrešna percepcija?

 

I drugi:

 

The French are frankly hilarious, ever so understanding and willing to compromise, clearly anxious to have a precedent when it is the turn of their dysfunctional economy in a few years time...

Edited July 12, 2015 by vememah

[vememah]

Ramzauer (CSU): predlozi Grčke neprihvatljivi za veliki deo poslaničke grupe CDU/CSU, jedino se može pregovarati o modalitetu uređenog Grexita.

 

Šefer (SPD) o CDU-u: od (pro)evropske partije Kola i Adenauera je malo toga ostalo, s (pro)evropskom partijom CDU je svršeno (rekao je "isch" aludirajući na Šojblea, pošto on tako u dijalektu izgovara "ist"). Priča o Grexitu mora odmah da se prekine.

 

http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article143217107/Tsipras-schwoert-Massen-auf-Nein-bei-Referendum-ein.html

 

Edited July 12, 2015 by vememah

[yolo]

kakva govna. sad su vrfakis i cipras krivi sto je sojble nekoliko godina pre njih napravio plan da izbaci grcku iz EZ.

[MancMellow]

 

 

ever so understanding and willing to compromise

 

Ne, ono što je Grčka predložila od austerity teško da je nekakav veliki kompromis. Poenta sa ovim ever so understanding and willing to compromise je da se poslovi u suštini tako završavaju i Francuzi se tu zapravo koriste svojim debelim iskustvom hendlovanja daleko slabijih partnera i podređenih. Ruka na rame, predstaviš nekog drugog kao nekog ko hoće da ovog uništi, ja sam tu da pomognem, da vidimo  šta može...erm, sve (više manje). Mislim, Šojble je katastrofa. Nek uspe da izbaci Grčku iz EZ, ok, mrzeće ga dva najvažnija saradnika u onome što ostane, US će im debelo uzeti za zlo, a ceo svet će ga/ih kriviti za humanitarnu katastrofu koja će neminovno nastupiti u Grčkoj. Ugled Nemačke će biti srozan totalno. I, o da, brit i us novine neće propustiti da nađu i poslednjeg penzionera u Atini i Solunu koji plače jer je izgubio ušteđevinu i da to vidi i poslednji indonežanin koji otvara novine na engleskom. Just sayin'

Edited July 12, 2015 by MancMellow

[vememah]

Yolo, Šojble je pravio razne planove, ali je trebalo da dođu ovi sa U-turn politikom da uspe da ih ostvari, ako i sad uspe.

 

Mislim, Šojble je katastrofa. Nek uspe da izbaci Grčku iz EZ, ok, mrzeće ga dva najvažnija saradnika u onome što ostane, US će im debelo uzeti za zlo, a ceo svet će ga/ih kriviti za humanitarnu katastrofu koja će neminovno nastupiti u Grčkoj. Ugled Nemačke će biti srozan totalno.

 

Verovatno, kao što je verovatno da bi posle bailouta Grčke sledilo još potreba za bailoutom Grčke, ali i većih zemalja, što Evropa ne bi mogla da podnese.

 

U slučaju uređenog Grexita ne mora doći do humanitarne katastrofe. Što se Francuza i Italijana tiče, oni će ga mrzeti ali će se i plašiti da vode rizičnu ekonomsku politiku. U svakom slučaju, nek se razilaze na evro nord i süd ako ne mogu da se slože ili nek se vrate na nacionalne valute. Bolesno je što će sad Ameri da pritiskaju Fince da se odreknu suverenog prava da sami odlučuju hoće li nekom dati sopstvene pare.

 

Pričard:

[MancMellow]

U slučaju uređenog Grexita ne mora doći do humanitarne katastrofe. Što se Francuza i Italijana tiče, oni će ga mrzeti ali će se i plašiti da vode rizičnu ekonomsku politiku. U svakom slučaju, nek se razilaze na evro nord i süd ako ne mogu da se slože ili nek se vrate na nacionalne valute. Bolesno je što će sad Ameri da pritiskaju Fince da se odreknu suverenog prava da sami odlučuju hoće li nekom dati sopstvene pare.

 

 

Nije to bolesno, nego imaju dve čuke u glavi. kakav uređeni grexit, sutra u 7 uveče ako objave da nastupa grexit, videćmo o kakvom se uređenom grexitu radi. A ovo o plašenju...to mogu Srbi i, eventualno, Grci da se zastrašuju. Sa 60tomilionskim evropskim narodima to ne funkcioniše tako. tako se sahranjuje Evropa, ali nemački desničari ništa bolje ni ne znaju.

[harper lee]

Ne vidim u cemu je problem. Neka iz Unije izlete Grci, Francuzi, Spanci, Italijani, Portugalci, Britanci, Irci a Nemci neka okupe oko sebe ove nebitne likove iz Beneluksa i bivse sovjetsko roblje koje je jedva cekalo da nadje novog gospodara da imaju kome da pozajmljuju pare i uvaljuju svoju robu i mirna Backa. EU sa Nemackom kao vodecom drzavom ionako nema sansu, pa je svakako bolje da se dalje mrcvarenje zaustavi pre nego sto se nepotrebno stvore novi animoziteti u Evropi koji bi nas sve zajedno kostali u picku materinu.

Edited July 12, 2015 by harper

[malkin]

nije pbp i nije baš od juče (valjda nije kačeno ovde, teško je sve ispratiti...), ali je Mark Blyth: THE (PERCEIVED) TRAGEDY OF GREECE.