Grčka - enormni dug, protesti oko mera štednje

[Prospero]

On Tuesday morning, French prime minister Manuel Valls, who is on his way to Brussels, said France would not “take the risk” of letting Greece leaving the eurozone.

“The bases of an accord exist . . . The French government will do everything to keep Greece in the eurozone. France is convinced we cannot take the risk to let Greece exit the eurozone,” he told RTL radio.

[vememah]

Junker u EP protiv Grexita (bitan deo počinje negde od 10. minuta):

http://ec.europa.eu/avservices/video/player.cfm?ref=I106483&sitelang=en&videolang=hr

[Prospero]

 

Keep Talking Greece‏@keeptalkingGR

EC Juncker: "I am against #Grexit. Some in EU are openly or covered in favor of Grexit. EC will do anything against it" #Greece

Edited July 7, 2015 by Prospero

[hazard]

Problem s bilo kojom francuskom inicijativom je što je Nemačka okupila oko sebe severnjačku koaliciju nadrkanih, neku modernu verziju hanseatske lige. Francuska u najboljem slučaju oko sebe može da okupi coalition of the billing, tj. ove što traže pare od prvospomenutih.

[Prospero]

Neki "nadrkani" su takođe pukli po 20+ procenata BDPa, za njih nema "jadni mali" emocija?

 

Berlin isn’t the only roadblock for Greece

Riga, Tallinn, Dublin and other capitals that cut back during the eurozone crisis won't be eager to fold.

By JAN CIENSKI 7/7/15, 5:30 AM CET

 

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras celebrated his referendum success as a “victory of democracy,” but in other European democracies which have tightened their belts, showing any further generosity to Athens would be a hard sell to voters.

 

The prospect of providing more funding for Greece and deferring to its demand for a reduction of its outstanding debt — a crushing 180 percent of GDP — is an especially sore point in eurozone countries that have gone through deep recessions of their own and struggled back to economic health, often by taking the same austerity medicine so fiercely resisted by the Greeks.

 

To get a deal, Athens must make its case not to Paris and Berlin, but also to Riga, Tallinn, Dublin and other capitals.

 

The experience of many of Greece’s eurozone partners means, at the emergency eurozone summit Tuesday, Tsipras may hear less support for debt relief and more about buckling down and undertaking the same kind of painful reforms that they did.

 

 

 

The Baltics

 

The three small Baltic republics are poster-children for austerity advocates. They all boomed thanks to a flood of cheap money from Scandinavian banks which ignited a real-estate bubble. Once the crisis hit, the advice from the International Monetary Fund was to unpeg their currencies from the euro and devalue. All three refused — choosing instead to regain competitiveness by slashing wages and social benefits.

 

Latvia’s per capita GDP contracted by 23 percent from 2008 to 2010, almost the same slump as Greece has experienced since 2008. Lithuania fell by 17 percent, while Estonia contracted by 13 percent.

 

Instead of asking for help, Lithuania borrowed on international markets at a rate of more than 10 percent. Some civil servants saw their pay slashed by one third. Pensioners also saw their benefits cut.

 

Latvia had an aid program worth €7.5 billion, but only tapped €4.5 billion of that, and repaid the loan early.

 

Lithuania’s per capita GDP is now 21 percent higher than before the crisis, Estonia is up by 20 percent, while Latvia is 8 percent higher, according to Eurostat.

 

That experience has made Baltic leaders very critical of Greek demands.

 

“The Greek government, instead of telling the truth to its people about the real outcome of such decision, agitated to vote against reforms which are necessary to stabilize the financial situation,” said Lithuania’s President Dalia Grybauskaitė.

 

Estonia’s official exposure to the €341 billion in Greek aid from the eurozone is €800 million, or about 4.2 percent of GDP, more proportionately than Germany and France. Estonian President Toomas Hendrik Ilves asked on Twitter, “Do we raise our taxes to bail out Greece?”

 

 

 

Slovakia

 

Slovakia didn’t get hit as badly as the Baltics and Greece, but it experienced a much tougher transition in the early 1990s.

 

It went from being a dysfunctional and deeply corrupt country under autocratic Prime Minister Vladimír Mečiar to the fastest growing economy in the EU after cutting taxes, revamping pensions and health care, and liberalizing the economy.

 

“In 10 years we went from the black hole of Europe to being the Tiger of the Tatras,” said Vladimir Vano, chief analyst at Sberbank Europe. “Initially, the cost of reforms outweighed the benefits, but we went through the valley of tears and are now in a much better place. Slovakia should serve as an example to Greece — if we can do it, they can too.”

 

Controversy over bailing out Greece helped unseat Slovakia’s government in 2011, and since then Bratislava has been a hardliner on helping Athens.

 

“Rejection of reforms by ‪#Greece cannot mean that they will get the money easier,” tweeted Peter Kažimír, the Slovak finance minister.

 

The issue is particularly acute in the Baltics and in Slovakia, because Greece still has a higher per capita GDP than they do, making it even more difficult to persuade skeptical voters of the need to pay more into another bailout.

 

 

 

Ireland, Portugal and Spain

 

All three are wealthier than Greece, but they also went through a very difficult crisis. Despite deep reforms, all three still have a smaller per capita GDP than before 2008.

 

Tsipras’ left-wing Syriza party serves as an example to populist parties like Spain’s Podemos and to Ireland’s Sinn Féin, whose leader Gerry Adams praised Greeks for their “historic decision” to fight austerity and demand debt relief.

 

Spain’s Economy Minister Luis de Guindos said Monday that Greece should remain part of the eurozone and that Spain would negotiate for a third bailout package, but stressed it was more important to return Greece to grow than to slash its debt.

 

It is the same message from Ireland’s Prime Minister Enda Kenny, who has said there would be no support for Greek debt relief.

 

 

[hazard]

 

Neki "nadrkani" su takođe pukli po 20+ procenata BDPa, za njih nema "jadni mali" emocija?

 

 

 

 

 

A nisi primetio da sam i ove druge castio prigodnim epitetom? :D

[vememah]

Samo da primetim da su Katimerinijevu vest o 16 od 18 preostalih zemalja Evrozone koje podržavaju Grexit u međuvremenu na svojim live blogovima preneli i Guardian, Telegraph i FAZ.

[Tribun_Populi]

 

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras is expected to present new proposals at a eurozone emergency summit on his country's growing debt crisis.

The plan is said to include a demand for Greece's debt to be cut by up to 30%, after voters rejected the terms of an international bailout on Sunday.

...

French Prime Minister Manuel Valls says the eurozone could not "take the risk of Greece leaving". He told French radio: "The basis for a deal exists."

However, Germany earlier warned against any unconditional write-off of Greece's debt, saying it would destroy the single currency.

"I really hope that the Greek government - if it wants to enter negotiations again - will accept that the other 18 member states of the euro can't just go along with an unconditional haircut [debt write-off]," said German Economy Minister Sigmar Gabriel.

Speaking at the European parliament in Strasbourg, European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker said the "ball lies in the court of the Greek government and it must explain in Brussels today how it sees ourselves extricating ourselves from the current situation".

 

BBC

[Muwan]

Počeli su pojačano da smaraju sa tim rabljenjem termina reforme, neugodno podsećaju na SNS i njenog labuda.

 

Sprovodili su Grci reforme u proteklih pet godina, pa kad nisu dale rezultate neko je prepametno zaključio da je to zbog toga što su procenti nedovoljni i treba ih povećati. To očigledno ne funkcioniše i stvarno bi bilo poštenije izbaciti ih napolje nego ih optuživati da ne rade ništa i krckaju tuđe pare.

 

A što se tiče ovog panevropskog otklona prema levim populistima, ako im je Syriza toliko pu-pu možda će im se više svideti da pregovaraju sa Zlatnom Zorom za par godina.

[yolo]

Pitanje, da li je neko video misljenje ljudi kao sto su Oskar Lafontaine ili Gregor Gysi? 

[Budja]

Nisu tvitovi loši sami po sebi, neke vredi preneti. Ali kada ti dođe Katimerini sa nekom tajkunskom senzacijom (mislim, na koju su to foru oni mogli da provere i verifikuju stav 16 evropskih vlada po pitanju grexita pa da izlaze sa takvim stanovištima?) i onda neki aktivista™ to dodatno pojednostavi i uprosti kako bi stalo u jedan senzacionalni tvit, to je već nešto od čega ovaj topik ne može da ima bilo kakve koristi.

 

I sam znas da je Katimerini relevantan izvor. Nije tu nista sporno, Zakintos i parisien mogu da se preskoce.

 

Uostalom, i Junker i Kamenos i Renzi vole da tvituju likuju i fejsbukuju.

 

Tako je kako je.

[Muwan]

Samo da primetim da su Katimerinijevu vest o 16 od 18 preostalih zemalja Evrozone koje podržavaju Grexit u međuvremenu na svojim live blogovima preneli i Guardian, Telegraph i FAZ.

 

Ništa ih ne košta da prenesu nešto uz ogradu da vest nije njihova. Oni sami ne mogu da provere tako ozbiljan stav na tako velikom broju zemalja ali to svakako može da uradi grčka novina u vlasništvu brodsko-medijskog tajkuna.

[Budja]

+1

 

 

+1 :D

 

O, da.

Ali, to je svetski elitisticki trend.

Demokratija i izbori su OUT.

 

 

Pa su tako pucevi u Ukrajini i Egiptu sasvim normalna i ocekivana pojava, a Vrhovni Sud odlucuje o tome sta je brak umesto da odlucivanje prepusti izabranim predstavnicima.

 

S te strane nije ni cudo da Iglesias i Podemos namerno u Laklauvskom smislu kazu da su populisti. 

 

Jer ako je populizam reakcija na suspenziju slobode, onda se on moze predstaviti kao demokratski a ne demagoski.

[Prospero]

A nisi primetio da sam i ove druge castio prigodnim epitetom? :D

 

Nije po sredi level-playing field, za početak. A ukazujem na nešto drugo - ne na to da "ako mogu jedni da se srede što ne mogu drugi" (mada smatram to validnim pitanjem) nego na iskrivljenu percepciju o nekakvim bogatunskim pizdama koje neće da pomognu a mogu, samo je dovoljno imati solidarnosti i volje, jer volja rešava sve.

 

 

Počeli su pojačano da smaraju sa tim rabljenjem termina reforme, neugodno podsećaju na SNS i njenog labuda.

 

Sprovodili su Grci reforme u proteklih pet godina, pa kad nisu dale rezultate neko je prepametno zaključio da je to zbog toga što su procenti nedovoljni i treba ih povećati. To očigledno ne funkcioniše i stvarno bi bilo poštenije izbaciti ih napolje nego ih optuživati da ne rade ništa i krckaju tuđe pare.

 

A što se tiče ovog panevropskog otklona prema levim populistima, ako im je Syriza toliko pu-pu možda će im se više svideti da pregovaraju sa Zlatnom Zorom za par godina.

 

Pa tako će "sprovoditi reforme" i sledeće 3 godine, i mi ćemo 2018. biti na istom topiku sa istom temom o otpisu, teretu dugova, demokratiji, solidarnosti itd.

 

Nemaju proizvodnju za izvoz, uslužni izvoz ima mali neto efekat, što se razmeni u kešu ostaje van fiskalnih tokova itd - i to će ostati tako do daljeg. Može se otpisati recimo 80% duga, i dati im 50 milijardi € i za koju godinu će plate biti 700 evra a penzije 400 (umesto 1000 i 880), a nezaposlenost možda manje od 20% ali zato što su ljudi pobegli iz zemlje a ne zbog rasta.

[Prospero]

O, da.

Ali, to je svetski elitisticki trend.

Demokratija i izbori su OUT.

 

 

Pa su tako pucevi u Ukrajini i Egiptu sasvim normalna i ocekivana pojava, a Vrhovni Sud odlucuje o tome sta je brak umesto da odlucivanje prepusti izabranim predstavnicima.

 

S te strane nije ni cudo da Iglesias i Podemos namerno u Laklauvskom smislu kazu da su populisti. 

 

Jer ako je populizam reakcija na suspenziju slobode, onda se on moze predstaviti kao demokratski a ne demagoski.

 

Mda, pošto pre 15, 30 ili 50 godina nije bilo pučeva, elitizma, manjka demokratije i svega ostalog, pa je sve kao otišlo na gore, a zapravo nije.