Grčka - enormni dug, protesti oko mera štednje

[Muwan]

Oups:

 

I ask the Greek people to vote Yes in Sunday’s referendum. Vote Yes to stay in the euro. I say to the Greek people, you should not commit suicide because you are afraid of death.

Edited June 29, 2015 by beowl

[hazard]

 

200 evra za penzije je ja mislim premalo s obzirom na rana penzionisanja i astronomske iznose. Evo jednog koji duže prima penziju, i to masnu, nego što je radio.

 

 

Prosečna grčka penzija je 2009. bila 1350 evra (daleko veća od nemačke), a danas je 833, što je i dalje znatno više od prosečne plate u mnogim novim članicama EU. Prosečna plata u Grčkoj je i dalje preko 1000 evra.

 

 

Evo i relativno svežeg poređenja nemačkih i grčkih penzija, podaci o grčkim su od Samarasove vlade:

Standardrente = penzija nakon 45 godina neprekidnog uplaćivanja doprinosa pri prosečnoj plati

Durchschnittsrente = prosečna isplaćena penzija

West = ex BRD

Ost = ex DDR

 

Izvor je Veltov članak iz marta ove godine: http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article138674711/Geldgeber-halten-griechische-Renten-fuer-zu-hoch.html

 

Interesantna statistika, ali koja zapravo ne govori mnogo...

 

Prvo vidimo da u Nemackoj, i na istoku i na zapadu, "puna" penzija veca od Grcke. Kako to onda da je prosecna isplacena penzija, narocito na zapadu Nemacke, tako niska? Mislim da je odgovor jednostavan: Nemacka je gasterbajterska zemlja. Prosecna isplacena penzija samo oko 60% "pune" jer tu ima mnogo ljudi koji su radili samo 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30... godina umesto "punih" 45. Tako da oni, bez obzira na to da li su trenutno kao penzioneri stacionirani negde drugde (npr. u Srbiji ili Turskoj) ili u Nemackoj samoj, primaju od Nemacke penziju samo za deo svog radnog staza...ostatak vuku od svoje zemlje porekla, ili neke druge zemlje gde su gasterbajtisali, ako uopste ista vuku. Da ne pricamo o tome da mnogi gastosi prvih par godina rade i na crno, pa se tu ne uplacuje staz. Istok Nemacke je malo drugacija prica, tamo je jednostavno masa ljudi ostala bez posla posle 1990. ne zaposlivsi se vise nikad, tako da ne cudi veliki broj penzionera danas bez punog radnog staza.

 

S druge strane, Grcka je nesto skroz drugo: posto nije gasterbajterska zemlja generalno (mislim imali su oni svoje gastose s bliskog istoka uglavnom, ali ni priblizno u procentima kao u Nemackoj), tu je glavni faktor koji obara prosecnu penziju verovatno sezonski tip posla koji dominira u mnogim grckim oblastima (ostrvima npr.), kao i hronicno visoka nezaposlenost + rasprostranjen rad na crno. Tu sigurno i javni sektor "vadi" prosek, bilo bi interesantno videti prosecnu penziju Grka koji je ceo zivot radio u javnom sektoru vs. onog koji je ceo zivot radio u privatnom.

 

Elem, bikini™

[Prospero]

Cipras je ponovo zatražio produžetak bejlauta:
 
 

Leaked: Tsipras requests bailout extension (again)
Peter Spiegel

There may be less than 48 hours remaining in Greece’s EU bailout, and Saturday’s decision by eurozone finance ministers not to extend the programme through next Sunday’s Greek referendum on creditors’ “final” offer was largely seen as the final nail in the rescue’s coffin.

But could it still be extended at the 11^thhour?

That’s clearly the hope of Alexis Tsipras, the Greek prime minister, who has written to all eurozone heads of government asking them to reconsider the decision. We’ve obtained a copy of the letter sent to Xavier Bettel, the prime minister of Luxembourg, who takes over the EU’s rotating presidency this week. A copy of the letter is posted here.

Dear Prime Minister,

As you are aware, over the past five months intensive negotiations have been held between the
Greek Government and the institutions - within the framework of the 20th February 2015 Eurogroup
Statement – on the financial assistance program of Greece.

On the 27th of June 2015, a Cabinet proposal was approved by the Hellenic Parliament, by
enhanced majority, to hold a referendum, on Sunday July 5, 2015, that allows the Greek people to
decide whether or not to accept the proposals submitted to our Government by the institutions in the
framework of the aforementioned negotiations.

In order to carry out the referendum in a calm and positive climate that allows the Greek people
to make this crucial decision without external pressure, the Hellenic Republic submitted - on the 27th
June, during the Eurogroup session - a request for an extension of the Master Financial Assistance
Facility (MAFA) for a period of one month from the date of its termination. Negotiations will
recommence on Monday July 6 2015, with a view to reaching an agreement immediately afterwards in
line with the decision of the Greek people.

Regrettably, and on unclear grounds, this request was not accepted. This decision – in
combination with the related ECB decision that followed – led to serious repercussions on the financing
of the Greek banking system and the liquidity of the Greek economy.

I would like to underline that holding a referendum on these proposals is a sovereign democratic
right of the Greek people, necessary to ensure ownership over the financial assistance program that will
be eventually agreed with the institutions. Furthermore, the referendum focuses solely on the
institutions’ proposals and does not raise directly or indirectly any issue regarding Greece’s EMU
membership, to which the Greek government is fully committed.

In this context, I would like to request that your Government reexamine its position on the issue
and support the reconsideration of the request of the Hellenic Republic by the Finance Ministers of the
Eurozone with a view to granting it. This decision will contribute to our common goal of reaching a
mutually beneficial agreement, to secure fiscal, financial debt sustainability, that will return Greece to
growth within the Eurozone.

Yours sincerely,

 

[Berger]

Stiglitz: Europe's Attack on Greek Democracy

 

"..... European leaders are finally beginning to reveal the true nature of the ongoing debt dispute, and the answer is not pleasant: it is about power and democracy much more than money and economics.

 

Of course, the economics behind the program that the “troika” (the European Commission, the European Central Bank, and the International Monetary Fund) foisted on Greece five years ago has been abysmal, resulting in a 25% decline in the country’s GDP. I can think of no depression, ever, that has been so deliberate and had such catastrophic consequences: Greece’s rate of youth unemployment, for example, now exceeds 60%.

 

It is startling that the troika has refused to accept responsibility for any of this or admit how bad its forecasts and models have been. But what is even more surprising is that Europe’s leaders have not even learned. The troika is still demanding that Greece achieve a primary budget surplus (excluding interest payments) of 3.5% of GDP by 2018.

 

Economists around the world have condemned that target as punitive, because aiming for it will inevitably result in a deeper downturn. Indeed, even if Greece’s debt is restructured beyond anything imaginable, the country will remain in depression if voters there commit to the troika’s target in the snap referendum to be held this weekend....

......

 

It is hard to advise Greeks how to vote on July 5. Neither alternative – approval or rejection of the troika’s terms – will be easy, and both carry huge risks. A yes vote would mean depression almost without end. Perhaps a depleted country – one that has sold off all of its assets, and whose bright young people have emigrated – might finally get debt forgiveness; perhaps, having shriveled into a middle-income economy, Greece might finally be able to get assistance from the World Bank. All of this might happen in the next decade, or perhaps in the decade after that.

 

By contrast, a no vote would at least open the possibility that Greece, with its strong democratic tradition, might grasp its destiny in its own hands. Greeks might gain the opportunity to shape a future that, though perhaps not as prosperous as the past, is far more hopeful than the unconscionable torture of the present.

I know how I would vote."

 

Edited June 29, 2015 by Berger

[Lord Protector]

Nisam razgovarao sa Grcima ovih dana o politici iako sam u Grčkoj ali mi se čini da oni još uvek tvrde pazar i pokušavaju da izboksuju što bolju poziciju. Na pristaništu se još uvek vijore zajedno zastave Grčke i EU...veliki bi to potres bio za sve, nikome ne odgovara, mislim da će se naći neki dogovor.

[stoka]

Majstori, da li da se povlače novci iz ovdašnjih filijala grčkih banaka? Ono, kao, država Srbija garantuje za depozite do neke određene sume, ali iz iskustva znamo da tamo gde Srbija garantuje, piši propalo ...

Edited June 29, 2015 by stoka

[vememah]

Interesantna statistika, ali koja zapravo ne govori mnogo...

 

Prvo vidimo da u Nemackoj, i na istoku i na zapadu, "puna" penzija veca od Grcke.

 

Da, sada je veća od grčke, 2008. je bila manja (jer su od tada penzije kresane za četrdesetak posto) što svedoči o tome da su grčke penzije bile prepumpane ne za 200 evra već za mnogo više.

Edited June 29, 2015 by vememah

[aram]

Juncker u Briselu, kao da drži oproštajni govor pred udar džinovskog asteroida: uradili smo sve što smo mogli, ja sam uradio sve što sam mogao, nije fer da se u nas upire prstom...

 

 

Edit: kaže da smanjivanje penzija nikada nije bilo u opticaju (wtf) i da je trojka bila spremna da razgovara o otpisu duga.

 

 

odakle ti ovo?

[Prospero]

In a surprise move the deputy transport minister Christos Spirtzis has decided that all forms of transport across Athens’ transit network will be free until after the referendum is held.

Trams, trolleys, buses and trains are included in the decision and will be running free services until next Monday.

[Prospero]

odakle ti ovo?

 

Ima na Gardijanu:

 

 

Yes, it was a demanding package, says Juncker - but also a fair one.

We did not propose pension cuts … This was never, ever on the table, and it is wrong to claim that it was, says Juncker (another attack on the Greek side).

The Greek government had the ability to substitute measures, he adds. And we also pushed for structural changes to tackle vested interests, Juncker insists:

It took some times, hours, to persuade the Greek government to impose a less-favourable tax regime for ship owners, even though this is common sense.

Juncker adds that Greece suffers from a lack of competition, meaning that energy and commodity prices are among the highest in Europe. He says he wanted to tackle that.

[Muwan]

odakle ti ovo?

 

Bio pbp u medijima™, bile i prateće fotke. Spektakularno patetičan govor. Dobra stvar je što ukazuje na to da će ponuda Grčkoj i dalje biti na stolu na dan referenduma (nepromenjena naravno), loša stvar je što osim patetike i neviđeno glupe metafore sa samoubistvom sada izgleda kao da je Evropska Komisija na ivici očaja i da ih je Cipras sve izdriblao kao muflone.

[aram]

sad citam neveruem platon u drugoj ligi wtf?

[Prospero]

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-15-5274_en.htm

 

Junkerov govor u celini, samo deo je preveden na engleski, sveže izašlo ispod čekića :D

 

 

 

edit: mislim da je ovo glavni deo, tumači dogovor:

 

 

Let me clarify a few things:

• There are no wage cuts in this package. And nobody is allow to give the impression that there are wage cuts in this package.
• There are no pension cuts in this package. No pension cuts in this package.
• In fact, it's a package which creates more social fairness, more growth and a more modern and transparent public administration.

You should be aware that in many instances, we in the European Commission, had to be the ones insisting on the most socially fair measures. I would have expected the Greek government to push this agenda in line with its campaign manifesto.

Let me illustrate this.

This is not a stupid austerity package. Some of the measures of course will hurt in the near term. But the package goes well beyond fiscal measures and proposes a clear way forward. Moreover, this package lowers the fiscal targets and gives more time to the Greek government to achieve them. Compared to the previous deal, the one we had, it is more than 12 billion EUR less savings that are requested from Greece in the coming years. And in fact the Greek government has already agreed to this and welcomed it. Although we had to discuss in a very intense manner amongst institutions as you know.

By the way, fiscal consolidation does not mean austerity: it means keeping public finances in control while boosting opportunities for jobs and growth. Many Member States have even higher fiscal targets despite having lower levels of debt.

There are, as I said, no wage cuts in this package.This was never, never ever on the table. What is on the table is a proposal tomodernise the wage grid of the public sector. And, for the private sector, we have agreed to review collective bargaining practices. Our only request has been that this should be done in line with the best European practices in cooperation with the institutions and ILO which are the specialists when it comes to this question.

There are no cuts in the level of pensions in this package. Even the Greek government agrees that the Greek pension system urgently needs further reform to be sustainable. It should be fairer so that everyone contributes to the welfare system according to their means. There is a menu of measures to achieve that, starting with removing incentives for early retirement. The government could also substitute measures with alternatives ones as long as the numbers add up.

I am repeating this sentence: The government could also substitute measures with alternatives ones as long as the numbers add up.

The package of the three institutions and President of the EG means more social fairness:

• by targeting support to the most vulnerable, for instance through a guaranteed minimum income scheme.
• by making sure that the efforts required from everyone are proportionate to their income,
• by targeting cuts in areas which do not affect the average wallets of the average citizens, such as through defense cuts
• We were asking for cuts in the defence budget and I think we are totally right.
• More social fairness by challenging vested interests, such as removing favorable tax treatments for ship-owners. It took some time if not hours to convince the Greek government - I had to do the job of the Greek government to impose a less-favorable tax treatment for ship owners, although this is common sense and in line with tax justice.
• The package means more social fairness by fighting corruption. Ordinary people are not those who are corrupted. Others are. We have to fight against corruption if we want to be credible.
• More social fairness by supporting more transparency and efficiency of the public administration, including an independent tax administration. Who could be against an independent tax administration. This is the normal rule in all European countries. The same rule has to be applied to Greece and the government agrees to that undertaking.

Once more, we were the ones pushing for these elements. Our offers of technical assistance have not been entirely taken up.

This package of the three institutions and President of the Eurogorup - and I have to underline that Mr Dijsselbloem did an excellent job for the last months, an excellent job - also means more growth and more investment. I believe growth can restart soon and fast once there is a deal. But there are no quick fixes to some of Greece's underlying problems. We need a thorough set of reforms.

For instance, why is the price of energy and some commodities among the highest in Europe? Because there is a lack of competition and a refusal to tackle vested interests.

Why is the tax collection so poor? Greece needs a stable tax system to promote investment.

And that is why I favoured the proposal to increase corporate tax, but not to the proposal for a one-off retrospective tax for 2014 profits.

The biggest impediment to jobs, growth and investment at the moment is uncertainty.Uncertainty, which can only be removed by agreeing a deal that provides a credible framework for the Greek economy and people. The confidence effect of a deal, the predictability it would bring, together with the injection of liquidity into the economy from disbursements will restore job creation and growth.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Prospero

[Budja]

Samo da jos jednom dodam kako je Junker 1 birokratsko govno i licemer.

 

 

 

EU Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker expressed concern about exactly how well-informed the Greek people were about proposed reforms, ahead of a referendum. "What do the Greek people know about our (the EU's) flexibility and determination to help them? What do they know about the details of our common proposals? What do they know of this latest offer we published yesterday? ...It would be advisable for the Greek government to tell the truth to the Greek people instead of simplifying the message."

[aram]

@prospero

 

uuu, falac :)

Edited June 29, 2015 by aram